[POLL] How should the 1800+ BTC at the Exodus Address be used?

[dacoinminster]

So I need to have negotiations with my wife to secure some of our precious weekend and/or vacation time to work on my crazy MasterCoin project (new protocol layer built on bitcoin). You can read more about the project here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=265488.0

So far, I have raised over 1800 BTC, 1222 of which is my own money. There is a lot of spirited discussion as to how much I should pay myself to work on this project on that thread, so I'm creating this poll to tabulate opinions.

As I said in the thread, no matter what the outcome of this poll, I will do what I think is best for MasterCoin holders, but your opinion definitely matters to me.

Also, note that there is an option on this poll for those of you who think I am a scammer

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[vokain]

The problem is that until demonstrated otherwise, remaining funds = original funds - funds paid to yourself. So in this case you still keep all of your funds and some of other people's funds.

Specifying in advance what is the salary you intend to receive for full-time employment in this (which AFAIK you have not yet done) will be helpful.

I don't plan to take a salary at all, given the funds currently raised. How much money I withdraw for work on this project will be a negotiation I have with my wife in order to secure time that would normally be devoted to giving her a break from the kids and household chores or taking her on vacation!

I think it likely that the price per hour will have to be on the order of "overtime pay" in comparison to my current day job in order to secure her approval. I don't want to make any promises, but I doubt I will burn through even half of funds contributed to date in order to get to feature complete.

Again, I haven't actually done this negotiation with her yet, and forecasting how long software projects will take is notoriously tricky!

That's what I figured as well.

Perhaps she should look at it like a long-term investment as well, just in terms of your time and her time with you. She would stand to gain from seeing the success of this through, no? The "overtime pay" concept, while I understand it, is tricky to me for that reason.

That said, I think the correct answer to this poll isn't absolute. Some (most?) things you're better off writing yourself, other things it might be more worth it to delegate.

[Chang Hum]

You've never started a business before have you!!!

[/dev/null]

You are a fucking scammer nothing else.

and thanks for proving me right.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=266386.msg2848752#msg2848752

So far, I have raised over 1800 BTC, 1222 of which is my own money.

First thing i would like to say that it's a clever scam.

Make a altcoin with some new function and then make a new thread saying it's gonna be next big thing.
After that you just need some 1000+ coins to grab peoples attention and tempt them to invest in that shitty coin.

[bytemaster]

Where is the option for 'pay yourself like a grad student and live on ramen'?

[Chang Hum]

Where is the option for 'pay yourself like a grad student and live on ramen'?

Exactly!

[dacoinminster]

Where is the option for 'pay yourself like a grad student and live on ramen'?

Exactly!

Unfortunately, that one doesn't fly with my wife and kids

[Chang Hum]

Where is the option for 'pay yourself like a grad student and live on ramen'?

Exactly!

Unfortunately, that one doesn't fly with my wife and kids

How much have they invested?

[vokain]

Where is the option for 'pay yourself like a grad student and live on ramen'?

Exactly!

Unfortunately, that one doesn't fly with my wife and kids

How much have they invested?

+1

[dacoinminster]

Where is the option for 'pay yourself like a grad student and live on ramen'?

Exactly!

Unfortunately, that one doesn't fly with my wife and kids

How much have they invested?

+1

My wife doesn't trust bitcoin at all, so if I convince her to sacrifice some of my time, I have to have U.S. Dollars to show for it. They have no interest in investing my time in experimental currencies unless I can express the advantages in those terms.

[vokain]

perhaps walk around town and show her how to use the Gyft app or something. Or walk into a cafe/restaurant that takes bitcoin in your city. Clearly she needs to use it firsthand before she lets her defenses down. send a coin to her wallet on a phone, then have her send it back to you. presto 

[dacoinminster]

perhaps walk around town and show her how to use the Gyft app or something. Or walk into a cafe/restaurant that takes bitcoin in your city. Clearly she needs to use it firsthand before she lets her defenses down

Oh, she knows that it works. It's more that she is very suspicious that it will continue to work and hold its value. We've been having these kind of discussions for a long time!

[bvt]

You've never started a business before have you!!!

I think that goes without saying.

[dacoinminster]

You are a fucking scammer nothing else.

and thanks for proving me right.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=266386.msg2848752#msg2848752

So far, I have raised over 1800 BTC, 1222 of which is my own money.

First thing i would like to say that it's a clever scam.

Make a altcoin with some new function and then make a new thread saying it's gonna be next big thing.
After that you just need some 1000+ coins to grab peoples attention and tempt them to invest in that shitty coin.

Um, I'd like to point out that I announced my purchase when it happened on my thread. There was no subterfuge about it!

[/dev/null]

Um, I'd like to point out that I announced my purchase when it happened on my thread. There was no subterfuge about it!

What purchase?
You bought your own coins with your own btc and paid yourself?
Is this some fucking joke?

[vokain]

Um, I'd like to point out that I announced my purchase when it happened on my thread. There was no subterfuge about it!

What purchase?
You bought your own coins with your own btc and paid yourself?
Is this some fucking joke?

i think to him, the coins will now be part of the fund. Not his to spend freely as he wishes, exactly, but for MSC's sake. For instance, with the fund, he won't be buying a car with it, I hope!

[dacoinminster]

i think to him, the coins will now be part of the fund. Not his to spend freely as he wishes, exactly, but for MSC's sake. For instance, with the fund, he won't be buying a car with it, I hope!

Yes, that is exactly how it works. No vehicle purchases. Those funds are dedicated to the MasterCoin project.

It would be very foolish of me to use them otherwise, given my publicly-known identity!

[vokain]

i think to him, the coins will now be part of the fund. Not his to spend freely as he wishes, exactly, but for MSC's sake. For instance, with the fund, he won't be buying a car with it, I hope!

Yes, that is exactly how it works. No vehicle purchases. Those funds are dedicated to the MasterCoin project.

It would be very foolish of me to use them otherwise, given my publicly-known identity!

Now, perhaps if we can coerce you not to screw investors over, we can coerce you to start working on the source expediently
an offer you can't refuse, so to speak

[ripper234]

How about you post bounties ... and you can try to implement them yourself?

This way you're giving everybody the same chance of a 'salary' that you're giving yourself.
If you'll work quickly and implement bounties, you'll be worthy of the payout.
If not, let the best/most efficient/cheapest coder win (while adhering to strict quality & security standards).

My vote goes to bounties.

[vokain]

How about you post bounties ... and you can try to implement them yourself?

This way you're giving everybody the same chance of a 'salary' that you're giving yourself.
If you'll work quickly and implement bounties, you'll be worthy of the payout.
If not, let the best/most efficient/cheapest coder win (while adhering to strict quality & security standards).

My vote goes to bounties.

There would be an issue with conflict of interest when setting bounty payouts. For instance, Willett can set a bounty for a feature, and in the case he expects no one would pick up such a bounty an artificially high bounty would be set.

[ripper234]

How about you post bounties ... and you can try to implement them yourself?

This way you're giving everybody the same chance of a 'salary' that you're giving yourself.
If you'll work quickly and implement bounties, you'll be worthy of the payout.
If not, let the best/most efficient/cheapest coder win (while adhering to strict quality & security standards).

My vote goes to bounties.

There would be an issue with conflict of interest when setting bounty payouts. For instance, Willett can set a bounty for a feature, and in the case he expects no one would pick up such a bounty an artificially high bounty would be set.

Who says it's "artificial".
If nobody will/can do it, then whatever price Willet pays is justified (assuming the task is important, enough time is given for people to bid on the bounty, etc).

[CIYAM]

As mentioned in the other topic (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=265488.msg2874428#msg2874428) CIYAM Open would be happy to host the project task management free of charge (as we are doing for Moneychanger - https://ciyam.org/open/?cmd=view&data=20130606055250338000&ident=M100V137&chksum=a2a9d6d5).

[vokain]

How about you post bounties ... and you can try to implement them yourself?

This way you're giving everybody the same chance of a 'salary' that you're giving yourself.
If you'll work quickly and implement bounties, you'll be worthy of the payout.
If not, let the best/most efficient/cheapest coder win (while adhering to strict quality & security standards).

My vote goes to bounties.

There would be an issue with conflict of interest when setting bounty payouts. For instance, Willett can set a bounty for a feature, and in the case he expects no one would pick up such a bounty an artificially high bounty would be set.

Who says it's "artificial".
If nobody will/can do it, then whatever price Willet pays is justified (assuming the task is important, enough time is given for people to bid on the bounty, etc).

I just feel like a lot of the problems in creating the source has already been cursorily resolved by  Willett already, meaning it'd be very easy for him to post a high bounty and claim it with ease just because he already thought about how to tackle that component before anyone else did. Besides, I'm no software engineer, but doesn't it take a lot of effort to sufficiently describe the "scaffolding" for a program to get someone else to understand exactly what is wanted?

As of right now I'm favoring the "trust Willett to be frugal and thrifty with what he spends the fund for" option and hope that he exercises the best course of action for each step that needs to be solved to get this thing off the ground. Some things he'll be better off doing on his own and others, it would make perfect temporal and financial sense to delegate out. Time should be taken to identify which of the project milestones are which.

Also, as I understand it, it is likely we need as much of the initial funds as we can save to secure the escrow and initial value within Mastercoin, if it helps. Honestly i'm still a bit iffy on the beginning as to how Mastercoin will start trading (I'd appreciate some help understanding on this point!) .

Also, spending on promotional media at this point is frivolous in my humble opinion. It is a pretty good business rule that you don't spend your initial capital on marketing when you don't even have an inkling of a return on investment yet, it is better to rely on word of mouth for now versus using up 1exodus. Now, once we get the source working with no problems, we can risk spending 1exodus on something like marketing, if we think the return on said marketing will be greater than its cost. I think having a video that shows what is possible with Mastercoin, with direct application of the protocol, say, with an easy to understand concept such as dist. betting would be the first great start, and a great way to segue into the other features. Without a direct application available for people to get their hands on, a video would be kind of ineffective in terms of spreading adoption. Perhaps before this happens, an easy-to-use service that utilizes the distributed betting feature should be created. I could see this being contracted out. Ideally, I'd like to see a proportionate return of 1exodus funds to the sending addresses OR preferably, a sort of endowment fund that will see through to accelerating Mastercoin's long term success.

This leads me to think, hear me out on this Willett since I know it's kind of your project and all: there should be some sort of oversight board with a platform (the more open the better IMO) to discuss the various spending that will need to be conducted throughout this dev and distribution cycle, and veto powers (perhaps limited somehow?) in the case that those vested think a proposal is frivolous and a better route should be sought.. Just something that can facilitate discussion about transparent fund usage before it happens, you know? In my experience, sometimes the creative doers of a group, despite how great their idea is and their acuity in their respective trades, forget the full business side of the equation and run through too many costs before drying up all their capital, or simply just using capital less than optimally/prematurely. That is my biggest fear. Thoughts?

[ripper234]

Also, spending on promotional media at this point is frivolous in my humble opinion. It is a pretty good business rule that you don't spend your initial capital on marketing when you don't even have an inkling of a return on investment yet, it is better to rely on word of mouth for now versus using up 1exodus. Now, once we get the source working with no problems, we can risk spending 1exodus on something like marketing, if we think the return on said marketing will be greater than its cost. I think having a video that shows what is possible with Mastercoin, with direct application of the protocol say with an easy to understand concept such dist. betting would be the first great start, and a great way to segue into the other features. Without a direct application available for people to get their hands on, a video would be kind of ineffective in terms of spreading adoption. Perhaps before this happens, an easy-to-use service that utilizes the distributed betting feature should be created. I could see this being contracted out. Ideally, I'd like to see a proportionate return of 1exodus funds to the sending addresses OR preferably, a sort of endowment fund that will see through to accelerating Mastercoin's long term success.

1. It is often better to do some limited marketing at the beginning, instead of just sitting in your basement and building products. Are you familiar with the Lean Startup movement? Willet has managed to get some traction before building a product, the better the PR campaign is during August, the more funds the project will raise. If a video can be built within a few day for 50 BTC, I think it should be done.

2. Alternatively, if the video makers believe in the project, the can receive MSC instead of BTC (supposed, they can be paid 20% extra above market rate, but in MSC ... this will require evaluating that "the market rate of MSC is right now). Remember that 1Exodus also controls MSC, not just BTC (it gets a 10% bonus).

This leads me to think, hear me out on this Willett since I know it's kind of your project and all: there should be some sort of oversight board with a platform (the more open the better IMO) to discuss the various spending that will need to be conducted throughout this dev and distribution cycle, and veto powers (perhaps limited somehow?) in the case that those vested think a proposal is frivolous and a better route should be sought.. Just something that can facilitate discussion about transparent fund usage before it happens, you know? In my experience, sometimes the creative doers of a group, despite how great their idea is and their acuity in their respective trades, forget the full business side of the equation and run through too many costs before drying up all their capital, or simply just using capital less than optimally/prematurely. That is my biggest fear. Thoughts?

+1

Willet, several people have suggested a board of directors. Can you explain why a board / MasterCoin foundation that controls the funds is not a good idea? The sooner such a board is started (preferably within the fund-raiser period), the better.

[spiral_mind]

What you're doing is almost certainly illegal.
You're selling an investment instrument without complying with any of the regulations. Maybe read this? http://www.pcworld.com/article/2045083/sec-charges-texas-man-with-running-bitcoin-ponzi-scheme.html

Even if you disagree with that assessment you're at minimum selling a virtual currency directly to consumers without doing any know your customer regulation compliance. See http://www.paritynews.com/2013/05/26/libertyreservecom-shuttered-founder-arrested-in-spain/

Even if you don't run with the money and actually release some source code you're going to get a nasty visit from the law eventually.

If this really is your identity, I think you're screwed. You still haven't proved you are who you say you are though. Maybe take a picture of yourself holding a sign saying "Mastercoin is totally not a scam guys"?

[ripper234]

Not you again... please go away.

[ripper234]

If this really is your identity, I think you're screwed. You still haven't proved you are who you say you are though. Maybe take a picture of yourself holding a sign saying "Mastercoin is totally not a scam guys"?

Although this is actually not a bad idea.

[spiral_mind]

Not you again... please go away.

Got any answer for those two points? Or are you just going to self moderate my posts away instead of defend your project using words again?

Although this is actually not a bad idea.

It would certainly help establish your identity even if it wouldn't directly establish this project's legitimacy (since the whole thing basically boils down to "give me money now and you can have some coins that don't exist yet when I get around to making them").

[ripper234]

Got any answer for those two points? Or are you just going to self moderate my posts away instead of defend your project using words again?

I'm not feeding the troll.
If anybody else who (not a troll/troll sockpuppet) wants to know, please post and I can post my opinion.

[dacoinminster]

There would be an issue with conflict of interest when setting bounty payouts. For instance, Willett can set a bounty for a feature, and in the case he expects no one would pick up such a bounty an artificially high bounty would be set.

Yeah, I'm not sure how bounties could be administrated if I was paying some of them to myself. Seems like I would have to deal with a lot of accusations any time I paid one to myself.

[dacoinminster]

What you're doing is almost certainly illegal.
You're selling an investment instrument without complying with any of the regulations. Maybe read this? http://www.pcworld.com/article/2045083/sec-charges-texas-man-with-running-bitcoin-ponzi-scheme.html

Even if you disagree with that assessment you're at minimum selling a virtual currency directly to consumers without doing any know your customer regulation compliance. See http://www.paritynews.com/2013/05/26/libertyreservecom-shuttered-founder-arrested-in-spain/

Even if you don't run with the money and actually release some source code you're going to get a nasty visit from the law eventually.

If this really is your identity, I think you're screwed. You still haven't proved you are who you say you are though. Maybe take a picture of yourself holding a sign saying "Mastercoin is totally not a scam guys"?

I believe all applicable laws deal with transfers into and out of U.S. Dollars, which I am not doing.

Also, my LinkedIn profile links to the MasterCoin spec, and I spoke about it on video at the bitcoin conference, so I really doubt anybody is seriously questioning my identity.

[bytemaster]

What you're doing is almost certainly illegal.
You're selling an investment instrument without complying with any of the regulations. Maybe read this? http://www.pcworld.com/article/2045083/sec-charges-texas-man-with-running-bitcoin-ponzi-scheme.html

Even if you disagree with that assessment you're at minimum selling a virtual currency directly to consumers without doing any know your customer regulation compliance. See http://www.paritynews.com/2013/05/26/libertyreservecom-shuttered-founder-arrested-in-spain/

Even if you don't run with the money and actually release some source code you're going to get a nasty visit from the law eventually.

If this really is your identity, I think you're screwed. You still haven't proved you are who you say you are though. Maybe take a picture of yourself holding a sign saying "Mastercoin is totally not a scam guys"?

I believe all applicable laws deal with transfers into and out of U.S. Dollars, which I am not doing.

Also, my LinkedIn profile links to the MasterCoin spec, and I spoke about it on video at the bitcoin conference, so I really doubt anybody is seriously questioning my identity.

You mean your forum picture isn't what you look like?   

I suggest your first bounty be to throughly vet the economics of your system prior to any code being developed.   

[spiral_mind]

What you're doing is almost certainly illegal.
You're selling an investment instrument without complying with any of the regulations. Maybe read this? http://www.pcworld.com/article/2045083/sec-charges-texas-man-with-running-bitcoin-ponzi-scheme.html

Even if you disagree with that assessment you're at minimum selling a virtual currency directly to consumers without doing any know your customer regulation compliance. See http://www.paritynews.com/2013/05/26/libertyreservecom-shuttered-founder-arrested-in-spain/

Even if you don't run with the money and actually release some source code you're going to get a nasty visit from the law eventually.

If this really is your identity, I think you're screwed. You still haven't proved you are who you say you are though. Maybe take a picture of yourself holding a sign saying "Mastercoin is totally not a scam guys"?

I believe all applicable laws deal with transfers into and out of U.S. Dollars, which I am not doing.

Also, my LinkedIn profile links to the MasterCoin spec, and I spoke about it on video at the bitcoin conference, so I really doubt anybody is seriously questioning my identity.

Read the links I posted. The first one the guy collected Bitcoins (not USD) yet that didn't stop the SEC from charging him with offering unlicensed investment instruments. The second link someone created a virtual currency (Liberty Reserve) and sold it directly to people.

The only reason Bitcoin hasn't been shut down is because it's open source, decentralized, with no official creator. That makes it impossible to shut down. Since your project has none of these properties you're a ripe target for the feds. You cannot deny that you're proposing to sell a currency directly to consumers (it's irrelevant whether it's in BTC or USD for legal purposes). Even if you succeed what you're doing is fundamentally illegal in the US. The creator of Liberty Reserve was in Spain but that didn't stop the US govt from getting him and shutting his currency down.

[vokain]

Is it illegal to trade BTC for LTC?

[spiral_mind]

Is it illegal to trade BTC for LTC?

If you operate an exchange within the US without complying with know your customer regulations then YES. You will be shut down for money laundering.

The currency pairing is irrelevant. If you are exchanging currency you have to have a money services business license in every state you operate in.

[vokain]

Is it illegal to trade BTC for LTC?

If you operate an exchange within the US without complying with know your customer regulations then YES. You will be shut down for money laundering.

The currency pairing is irrelevant. If you are exchanging currency you have to have a money services business license in every state you operate in.

but the whole point of this protocol is that this sort of stuff is decentralized? Sort of like with Defense Distributed, yeah, we had the lead designer who was forced to stop, but the important thing was that he released his work into the public domain which spread before any authority could enforce the idea.

I guess my point is, if I can trade BTC for LTC very easily now, what's to stop MSC from slipping by at the individual level as well. Enforceability is hard, and really unnecessary. Now if a commercial service were to use this protocol, it'd be a different matter. They would have to follow laws or risk having their operation shut down. This, as a protocol, seems different.

[spiral_mind]

Is it illegal to trade BTC for LTC?

If you operate an exchange within the US without complying with know your customer regulations then YES. You will be shut down for money laundering.

The currency pairing is irrelevant. If you are exchanging currency you have to have a money services business license in every state you operate in.

but the whole point of this protocol is that this sort of stuff is decentralized? Sort of like with Defense Distributed, yeah, we had the lead designer who was forced to stop, but the important thing was that he released his work into the public domain which spread before any authority could enforce the idea.

I guess my point is, if I can trade BTC for LTC very easily now, what's to stop MSC from slipping by at the individual level as well. Enforceability is hard, and really unnecessary. Now if a commercial service were to use this protocol, it'd be a different matter. They would have to follow laws or risk having their operation shut down. This, as a protocol, seems different.

This protocol is not decentralized. He's the only one who can create "mastercoins" according to his proposal. He hasn't released any source code. He's saying "Trust me to make this alt-coin eventually, here's my real life identity, I live in the USA!". That's the opposite of decentralization. Whether his centralized project plans to piggyback off the Blockchain is irrelevant.

Your example of Defense Distributed is not a good analogy. The creator of that project released his work for free to the public rather than trying to sell it. It's not illegal to create homemade firearms or firearm blueprints in the USA either. Exchanging money without following regulations definitely is and many people have been busted for it already.

[vokain]

Is it illegal to trade BTC for LTC?

If you operate an exchange within the US without complying with know your customer regulations then YES. You will be shut down for money laundering.

The currency pairing is irrelevant. If you are exchanging currency you have to have a money services business license in every state you operate in.

but the whole point of this protocol is that this sort of stuff is decentralized? Sort of like with Defense Distributed, yeah, we had the lead designer who was forced to stop, but the important thing was that he released his work into the public domain which spread before any authority could enforce the idea.

I guess my point is, if I can trade BTC for LTC very easily now, what's to stop MSC from slipping by at the individual level as well. Enforceability is hard, and really unnecessary. Now if a commercial service were to use this protocol, it'd be a different matter. They would have to follow laws or risk having their operation shut down. This, as a protocol, seems different.

This protocol is not decentralized. He's the only one who can create "mastercoins" according to his proposal. He hasn't released any source code. He's saying "Trust me to make this alt-coin eventually, here's my real life identity, I live in the USA!". That's the opposite of decentralization. Whether his centralized project plans to piggyback off the Blockchain is irrelevant.

Your example of Defense Distributed is not a good analogy. The creator of that project released his work for free to the public rather than trying to sell it. It's not illegal to create homemade firearms or firearm blueprints in the USA either. Exchanging money without following regulations definitely is and many people have been busted for it already.

The source code is going to be developed openly and transparently. Anyone is free to buy mastercoins right now.

Don't quote me for anything, but my thinking from FinCEN's statement was that it was only illegal not to comply with current AML laws. I don't think they have jurisdiction with the nature of bitcoin-to-bitcoin transactions, and I think they said that. Mastercoin would probably fall under the same extension of the decision. Like Bitcoin, you can use it to launder money, but it is illegal to do so. Same idea. The commercial operations using the Mastercoin protocol when exchanging with their customers would have to follow said regulations, no? The CFTC has yet to make any statement as well, but they're exploring whether or not Bitcoin even falls under their jurisdiction as a virtual commodity.

Please note I'm not speaking for Willett or Mastercoin here or anything, as of right now I'm simply discussing points for argument's sake. He can clarify his position if he wants.

[ripper234]

This protocol is not decentralized. He's the only one who can create "mastercoins" according to his proposal. He hasn't released any source code. He's saying "Trust me to make this alt-coin eventually, here's my real life identity, I live in the USA!". That's the opposite of decentralization. Whether his centralized project plans to piggyback off the Blockchain is irrelevant.

Dead wrong.

Once he published 1.0, the protocol is totally decentralized except control of exodus funds (which we're working on decentralizing now).
Anyone can come and implement this protocol.

I do agree it's a high risk that only Willet controls the funds, but hopefully that would be resolved soon.