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Author Topic: Are there 240v surge protectors and watt meters for American miners?  (Read 301 times)
Elliander
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January 04, 2018, 08:23:09 AM
 #1

Hi, I decided to have NEMA 6-15P outlets installed in my home to run mining hardware, due in large part to recommendations for 240v in mining and given that this was a standard available in America. It definitely runs better than my experience on 120v (and as a side note I'm detecting around 10% the EMFs from the 240v wire compared to my 120v wires), but my concern here is that I can't seem to find surge protectors, voltage regulators, or even a single watt meter and I was wondering if any other miners encountered any, or else what their solutions were.

For reference, this is a NEMA 6-15P outlet:

http://internationalconfig.com/prod_shot/5642-i.jpg


All of the 240v surge protectors and voltage regulators I can find are for european outlets, which probably wouldn't work right given a frequency difference even if I could find an electrician to install outlets like that (and I can't, since it's not approved by code)

I was able to find a power strip for it, but it doesn't specify that it's a surge protector and I couldn't run more than 2 miners on a single 15-amp breaker anyway.

http://www.internationalconfig.com/icc6.asp?item=60400

The electrician said that I can have installed a surge protector for the entire house, directly on the line - but only after I update the breaker box because there's no more room for it. Even when I do, I'd prefer having more than one line of defense. They had no idea about voltage regulators, even though I currently use them for all of my 120v computer equipment. I thought about installing an inline meter, since I was going to end up with 2 panels - one panel for business use only, so figured it could go there, but they weren't familiar with anything.

I would hope that, considering the importance of protecting such equipment, someone else has found a solution. Thanks!

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fanatic26
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January 04, 2018, 04:41:45 PM
 #2

Unless you have some really screwed up, inconsistent, off-grid power there is literally no reason to run a surge protector. The power supply IS your surge protector. This is another reason why you should run a server power supply over ATX like some people do. Server power supplies have protection circuitry that will throw them into protect or if it is a crazy huge spike it might kill the PSU but it wont hurt the miner.

Stop buying industrial miners, running them at home, and then complaining about the noise.
Raymond_B
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January 04, 2018, 04:42:43 PM
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I think one could argue back and forth the real value of consumer grade "surge" protectors.

Anyway I would look at a "smart" PDU for the other items you want. You can get them in several configs from metered, metered and switched, monitored etc, etc. Also a 15A circuit is cutting it awfully close running two miners, it also depends on the brand and model. S9s are like 6-7A each and the M3's are like 10A each. Remember you don't want to exceed 80% of the circuit capacity.

fanatic26
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January 04, 2018, 05:00:57 PM
 #4

If you want to run two s9s on a single circuit you really need it to be 20 amp.

Stop buying industrial miners, running them at home, and then complaining about the noise.
Elliander
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January 04, 2018, 08:32:13 PM
 #5

Unless you have some really screwed up, inconsistent, off-grid power there is literally no reason to run a surge protector.

That... sounds like total nonsense to me. I don't know anyone personally who hasn't encountered a voltage irregularity or a power surge at some point in their lives. Personally, in every location I have ever lived - in both the United States and in Canada - I had power surges. Sometimes the device is protected by a surge protector, sometimes it isn't. It depends on the quality of the protector if it survives or not, hence why I prefer to have more than one line of protection. (I've only ever had one case of a surge protector actually being responsible for killing a device)

The power supply IS your surge protector. This is another reason why you should run a server power supply over ATX like some people do. Server power supplies have protection circuitry that will throw them into protect or if it is a crazy huge spike it might kill the PSU but it wont hurt the miner.

That doesn't make me feel any better. Last time I ran a miner on ATX a power surge resulted in the PSU erupting in flames. Thankfully I was there to put it out. I was lucky. It could have burned my house down, and that one was brand new. Besides that, a surge protector tends to be less expensive overall than a PSU (not to mention the time delay in getting the miners back online if the PSUs all fried - which represents lost revenue). Obviously I'd rather it failed than the miner, but ideally I want neither to fail.That's the whole point of surge protection.

For my 120v equipment, I use voltage regulators, surge protectors, and uninterruptible power supplies rather to keep me going for an hour even in the event of a power outage or worse - a power flicker. I have NEVER had any problems with power when using such a setup, hence why I want to replicate it in 240v.

If you want to run two s9s on a single circuit you really need it to be 20 amp.

Also a 15A circuit is cutting it awfully close running two miners, it also depends on the brand and model. S9s are like 6-7A each and the M3's are like 10A each. Remember you don't want to exceed 80% of the circuit capacity.

Why?

At 240 volts and 15 amps, the max power draw is 3600 watts. Technically, the line gets derated, but at 20% derating it SHOULD still be sufficient to run 2 miners, assuming the power draw in the specifications is accurate that is. According to Bitmain, the power draw for it's Antminer S9 plugged into it's APW3++ (on 240v) is 1323W with a power discrepency of +/- 10% which means that the maximum power draw should be 1455.3 watts each. Assuming two miners were plugged into the same circuit, and both just happened to have the worst power rating, they would draw 2910.6 watts from the wall. At 240v that would use 12.1275 amps. Derating 15 amps to 12 amps would mean that it's 0.1275 amps over, but only in the case of the worst possible power draw. If I was able to actually read the power draw I'd have a clear idea of what is needed though. I could, for example, combine an efficient with an inefficient to balance things out. As long as the two miners working together are not drawing more than 2880 watts that should meet within the derating standards and draw only 12 amps. Right now, I only have one miner plugged into a single circuit. There's a reason why I want to read the watt usage.

In any case, the electrician actually installed 20 amp breaker switches because that's all they had on hand. It's just that the outlet itself is rated for 15 amps. Technically, I could switch them to NEMA 6-15 out for NEMA 6-20 if there really is a problem with that and use the breakers in place, but the problem there is that the breaker box and all the breakers are rated for 240v max and the NEMA 6-20 is rated for 250v so I am unsure how that would affect things, even though I can easily plug a NEMA 6-15 plug into a NEMA 6-20 outlet.  (that, and I literally JUST dropped the money to have these outlets installed.)

Even if I did that, I'd still want proper surge protection, and I'd want to know exactly how much power is being drawn. Even an inline watt meter to go in front of the planned sub panel that will be used specifically for the miners would help if there is nothing else.

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Raymond_B
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January 04, 2018, 08:47:39 PM
 #6

You need to take in to account the wire gauge from the breaker to the outlet, it's not *just* the breaker or *just* the outlet that dictates the max amperage.

Hey it's your money if you must have a surge protector get one. Also if you want to run two miners on a 15A circuit go for it, but I find it funny you're worried about surge protectors and fires from a surge more than overloading a circuit.

Oh and it sounds like you need a new electrician...


Elliander
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January 04, 2018, 09:02:42 PM
 #7

Hey it's your money if you must have a surge protector get one.

I'd like to. That's why I created a topic titled "ARE THERE 240v surge protectors and watt meters for AMERICAN MINERS?" I mean, it's right there. I couldn't be more clear than that. I have explicitly stated that I am looking to spend my money on these products. Why do so many people derail threads into random directions when the question is in the topic?

I find it funny you're worried about surge protectors and fires from a surge more than overloading a circuit.

I never said I wasn't worried about overloading a circuit. I need the ability to read the power draw from each outlet so that I can make sure that I am not overloading a circuit. I've done all the calculations, and updated my last response with them so you can see what I am trying to do with it.

This is Kill-a-watt. I use it to read how much power is being drawn from a 120v outlet so that I can make sure everything is working properly and I am not overloading anything.



I want a 240v version that will work for American outlets so that I can do the same thing for my miners. It's a very very SIMPLE question. If I could even just find one to go on the line it would mean that I could plug the miners in one at a time, at the very least, to test their individual power draw so that I can make sure everything is working properly. Planning for more amps than I actually need would just reduce the maximum number of miners that I can safely run.

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Elliander
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January 04, 2018, 09:25:25 PM
 #8

This explains the type of problem my area has, and why I also prefer using voltage regulators. The smart meters used by my utility creates voltage irregularities that increase the risk of damage to sensitive electronics like Bitcoin Miners:

http://www.smartmetereducationnetwork.com/dirty-electricity-and-smart-meters.php

I'm not overreacting. I've had very serious problems that only a combination of surge protection and voltage regulation can solve. I'm not talking about health concerns, I'm talking about the voltage going out of an acceptable range, which in turn causes amperage to go outside of an acceptable range. If, for example, the voltage drops too low the amperage will go too high which will in turn cause the line to overheat. The voltage regulator prevents the type of power irregularities that can lead to fires.

This is the voltage regulator I use for my 120v devices:



Similar to the watt meter and surge protection issue, the company that makes these also makes a 240v version, but it's designed to handle European outlets, and because of the frequency difference it probably wouldn't work right.


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Raymond_B
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January 04, 2018, 09:33:31 PM
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Did you have a look at those Tripp-Lite PDUs? Those have everything except surge protection. You might give their support a call and see if they have anything with the features you're looking for and surge suppression. Maybe the same for APC, Liebert/Vertiv etc. Or maybe they can offer an alternative method.

I am afraid that their going to say use a UPS, which is what large operations do for line conditioning.


fanatic26
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January 04, 2018, 09:33:50 PM
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1. I have managed over 25000 miners in the past 3 years running unregulated power, so I might have an idea what im talking about. Also, I live in a 60 year old house with original wiring and have never had a surge bad enough to even trip a power strip, let alone blow anything up. I dont know where you have lived but surges bad enough to kill electronics are almost nonexistant these days with clean power.

2. I said dont run ATX, then you tell me a story about an ATX psu blowing up. This is why I mentioned a server PSU as they will go into protect rather than blow up if there are surges.

3. In practice an s9 draws ~6.5 amps at full tilt. 13 amp on a 15 amp circuit is pushing it a bit. If you want to be safe you dont choose to run a surge protector then overheat your wiring.....also you keep doing your calculations at 240 but you almost never get 240 all the way down to the last circuit so your numbers can be a bit off.

4. We are not derailing your thread so much as explaining to you that some of your theories are inaccurate and we are trying to give advise that makes sense so you dont waste your money on accessories that are useless.

5. A kill-a-watt meter will work fine on 220-240 as long as you dont try and draw more than 1800w so you can safely run them one per miner. i use them all the time here with the 235v I get at my test station. So there is your SIMPLE answer.




Stop buying industrial miners, running them at home, and then complaining about the noise.
fanatic26
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January 04, 2018, 09:40:39 PM
 #11

I'm talking about the voltage going out of an acceptable range, which in turn causes amperage to go outside of an acceptable range. If, for example, the voltage drops too low the amperage will go too high which will in turn cause the line to overheat.

Maybe I didnt qualify my very first statement enough for you by saying screwed up, inconsistant, or off grid power.

Sounds like you really need to get rid of that 'smart' meter. If you can prove it causes damages to your electronics you need to get rid of it.

Stop buying industrial miners, running them at home, and then complaining about the noise.
westom
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January 05, 2018, 04:43:39 PM
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I'd like to. That's why I created a topic titled "ARE THERE 240v surge protectors and watt meters for AMERICAN MINERS?" I mean, it's right there. I couldn't be more clear than that. I have explicitly stated that I am looking to spend my money on these products.

Unfortunately you have lumped many unrelated anomalies into one common topic.  No relationship exists between surge protection and those other anomalies.

Every layer of protection is never defined by a protector.  An effective protector is only a connecting device to what does the protection.  If that protector does not make a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to earth, then it is not a layer of protection. An item that absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules is protection.

Words protector and protection have completely different meanings.

No power strip will discuss numbers that define protection.  How many joules does that 120 or 240 volt protector claim to 'absorb'?  'Block' or 'absorb' is what it must do.  Potentially destructive surges easily blow through such near zero devices.  Worse, an adjacent protector can compromise what is already superior protection inside every miner.  Yes, an adjacent protector simply gives a potentially destructive surge more destructive paths into a miner - directly into semiconductors.

How often have you replaced a dishwasher, furnace, GFCIs, clocks, microwave, dimmer switches, and smoke detectors?  Potentially destructive surges are rare - maybe once every seven years. Those other appliances say how often surges existed.  A number that can vary significantly even in the same venue.  Other anomalies (ie blackouts) have no relationship to and are completely irrelevant to a topic about hardware protection.

If no 'whole house' protector exists at the service entrance, then plug-in protectors are not protected. Even fire is an unacceptable possibility.  So many options exist.  'Whole house' solution can be part of each breaker.  It is usually installed on the breaker box on its own breaker.  Installed in the meter pan.  Or even rented from and installed by the electric company behind the meter.

That is your 'secondary' protection layer.  Also learn about and inspect your 'primary' protection layer.  A simple rule exists.  A protector (any protector) is only as effective as its earth ground.  Each layer of protection is only defined by earth ground - not by any protector.

Each layer of protection will always answer this question.  Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate?  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.  Effective protection always means no surge is anywhere inside the building.  Once inside, then nothing (as in nothing) will avert that destructive hunt for earth via electronics.  Facilities that cannot have damage do not waste money on adjacent protectors.  And always (as in always) properly earth a 'whole house' solution.

All this is unrelated to other power anomalies.  He has not derailed your thread.  You have combined a hodge-podge of unrelated and some completely mythcial anomalies into a single magic box solution.  Each should have been originally defined in separate threads.  A fear of smart meters should have been disposed when a fool or scam artist first suggested it to you.

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January 07, 2018, 02:17:52 PM
 #13

If you want to run two s9s on a single circuit you really need it to be 20 amp.

And why would you setup for today and not be ready for whatever hardware we are all running next year? Don't try to skimp a few pennies now to make dollars tomorrow. Use 10/2 wire off of a 30a breaker and terminate with L6-30 receptacles.
wtfonly16
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January 21, 2018, 08:32:08 AM
 #14

why are there still no fucking links to 240v surge protectors or wattmeters ?

ye i aint bares
lrowland21093
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January 21, 2018, 04:30:00 PM
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why are there still no fucking links to 240v surge protectors or wattmeters ?
I agree it is frustrating!  After lots of research I never found an affordable one unless you try a PDU that has them built-in (to pricey).
What a lot of people fail to realize is the international 240V meters are not safe to use in the US.  The 240V line in the US is made of two 120V lines that are 180 degrees out of phase.  That means both lines are hot all the time.  The international 240V meters are not built to handle that - they expect 240 on one line and the other line to be neutral.  This becomes even more dangerous when someone tries to use an international 240V "smart switch" since most of them only switch one leg!  I got a few switches and meters and none of them had double pole relays which left the second leg in the US powered to 120V.

Oh well, time to invest in a whole house energy monitoring system!  The clamp on kind takes a bit work to install but then it could monitor everything.
wtfonly16
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January 21, 2018, 05:03:49 PM
 #16

what is an international 240v smart switch ??

ye i aint bares
lrowland21093
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January 22, 2018, 12:21:56 AM
 #17

what is an international 240v smart switch ??
Here are a few examples:
https://www.amazon.com/European-Standard-Aobiny-Wireless-Control/dp/B077FXRCQG
https://www.amazon.com/Socket-Switch-Wireless-Remote-Control/dp/B077G16SPJ
https://www.amazon.com/QiTeng-Intelligent-Wireless-Control-Electronics/dp/B073M2QGHS

These are all advertised to work with 220/240V but they don't mean like what is used in the US.
Anyway, finding one with a US compatible plug is also impossible.  There are 110V versions of these that do the power monitoring over the web as well as allowing control (on/off).  But nothing for US 220V except a Z-Wave based one and an older X10 based one.
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January 22, 2018, 12:27:06 AM
 #18

seems like the only real solution is an expensive PDU

still doesn't solve the surge protector problem. i don't see any PDU with surge capability

ye i aint bares
Raymond_B
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January 22, 2018, 01:23:44 AM
 #19

seems like the only real solution is an expensive PDU

still doesn't solve the surge protector problem. i don't see any PDU with surge capability

Because if you read the previous posts you'll see that "surge protection" is largely a myth in consumer grade products. It's like the BS "Gold Plated" stereo cables on eBay...

1. Run the proper capacity breaker, wire, plug, and power cord.
2. Plug the miner in.
3. Profit.


t0nyst4r
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January 22, 2018, 06:28:31 AM
 #20

Nobody ever answered your question huh? Read this post and see what I'm using: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2612508.msg26593773#msg26593773




This explains the type of problem my area has, and why I also prefer using voltage regulators. The smart meters used by my utility creates voltage irregularities that increase the risk of damage to sensitive electronics like Bitcoin Miners:

http://www.smartmetereducationnetwork.com/dirty-electricity-and-smart-meters.php

I'm not overreacting. I've had very serious problems that only a combination of surge protection and voltage regulation can solve. I'm not talking about health concerns, I'm talking about the voltage going out of an acceptable range, which in turn causes amperage to go outside of an acceptable range. If, for example, the voltage drops too low the amperage will go too high which will in turn cause the line to overheat. The voltage regulator prevents the type of power irregularities that can lead to fires.

This is the voltage regulator I use for my 120v devices:

http://www.ipmart.com.my/contents/products/P318000/318493/thumbnail/600.jpg?t=38316

Similar to the watt meter and surge protection issue, the company that makes these also makes a 240v version, but it's designed to handle European outlets, and because of the frequency difference it probably wouldn't work right.


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