Bookie - Sports Betting Exchange on the Blockchain Wants Your Input

[bookieapps]

Thanks again for the questions! Will jump right in...

OP, do you really need censorship resistance and go through the inefficiencies of the blockchain only to set up a sports betting exchange? What is the value proposition of this idea and what difference does it make if I use a regulated counterpart of your service that accepts Bitcoins and altcoins?

Hi Wind_FURY, good questions.

Some of the key reasons for us building Bookie on top of a blockchain (well, not any old blockchain, it's the Peerplays blockchain, which is built specifically for gaming and betting apps):

• Provably fair - All source code for Bookie will be available on Github. No secrets.
• Real-time transparency - All Bookie bets published on a public ledger in real-time. No more doubts or arguments about what bet was or was not made, what the stakes were, for how much, etc.

The same can be achieved by your centralized counterparts, so there is no added value in using a blockchain there.

With a centralized architecture, there is always a single authority who decides what transactional information is released and when (if ever).

By using the Peerplays blockchain as back-end, Bookie as a matter of fact has full, public, real-time disclosure of all transactions. This is built in to the tech - every bet

By the way, does anyone know of any centralized sportsbooks or exchanges that offer full, public disclosure of every transaction in real-time? We haven't heard of any, but interested to hear others' experience.

You will also for sure have problems with scaling some time in the future

Thanks to the Dmo09 for bringing up how DPoS & Graphene allows the Peerplays blockchain to scale (up to 10,000 transactions per second and beyond).

More info (including the BitShares stress test) can be found here:
https://www.peerplays.com/resources/#graphene

Regarding censorship-resistance in sports betting, this could be seen to have value for someone who finds themselves in a situation where such censorship is practiced.

Hope that answers your questions!

I could see some benefits of censorship resistance in your service. A good example of it would be if you are running an illegal and unlicensed P2P betting exchange. Are you running one?

The Bookie app is being developed by PBSA (that's us!) - check out http://bookie.exchange/ for the back story.

Once released, the Bookie app will be downloaded by end users and connect to the Peerplays blockchain, which takes care of all bet matching and settlement. The Peerplays blockchain is fully decentralized. PBSA has no operational or executive role in its operation. Independent "Witnesses" run the Peerplays blockchain (https://www.peerplays.com/governance/#witnesses).

So... No. PBSA is not running a betting exchange, unlicensed or otherwise.

But this is new tech and it doesn't fit neatly into established, traditional models. We really appreciate people like Wind_FURY taking the time to help us explain the disruptive tech behind Bookie and Peerplays.

[bookieapps]

OP, do you really need censorship resistance and go through the inefficiencies of the blockchain only to set up a sports betting exchange? What is the value proposition of this idea and what difference does it make if I use a regulated counterpart of your service that accepts Bitcoins and altcoins?

Hi Wind_FURY, good questions.

Some of the key reasons for us building Bookie on top of a blockchain (well, not any old blockchain, it's the Peerplays blockchain, which is built specifically for gaming and betting apps):

• Provably fair - All source code for Bookie will be available on Github. No secrets.
• Real-time transparency - All Bookie bets published on a public ledger in real-time. No more doubts or arguments about what bet was or was not made, what the stakes were, for how much, etc.

The same can be achieved by your centralized counterparts, so there is no added value in using a blockchain there. You will also for sure have problems with scaling some time in the future, unless your solution is not to have a large userbase. But how would you attempt to solve that if you do?

• Decentralization - assuming posters here see the benefits of a decentralized currency ... we think there are similar upsides to bringing decentralization to sports betting. And a betting exchange (P2P) is a great fit for decentralization, as opposed to a sportsbook/house model which is de facto centralized.

Regarding censorship-resistance in sports betting, this could be seen to have value for someone who finds themselves in a situation where such censorship is practiced.

Hope that answers your questions!

I could see some benefits of censorship resistance in your service. A good example of it would be if you are running an illegal and unlicensed P2P betting exchange. Are you running one?

Graphene / DPoS / Peerplays have no problem scaling.
https://hackernoon.com/explain-delegated-proof-of-stake-like-im-5-888b2a74897d
https://bitshares.org/technology/delegated-proof-of-stake-consensus/

As mentioned in a previous reply, thanks again for bringing up the scaling abilities of the Peerplays blockchain!

[bookieapps]

I'm glad more decentralized sports betting are arriving these days, they will be a really improvement in terms of trust and security in the online betting community. As for your questions, I usually only bet on football, and tennis, so for me those would be enough. Major European leagues would be mandatory in football, as well as Champions o course. As for tennis, I would settle with grand slams and major tournaments. I like seeing a good option of markets, but they are useless if they don't have liquidity, so I'm ok with the basics as well. There is something I really like, that is the ability to lay teams, since it opens a lot of opportunities in sports betting, and normally results in better odds. Are you going to allow bets against and in favor in your markets?

Hi Bolt Brownie,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and for your interest in Bookie.

To answer your question: Yes, Bookie will allow users to Back or Lay any selection (team/player).
This feature - allowing users to take either side of a bet - sits at the core of the betting exchange experience. It provides users with a much more flexible way of interacting with betting markets,  compared to the traditional sportsbook model.

As you correctly point out, liquidity is a key requirement for any functioning betting exchange. Part of the Bookie development effort is directed at providing well-documented APIs so that market makers can bring liquidity to Bookie, in the same way as occurs with existing exchanges. More news on this in the coming months.

[Wind_FURY]

Thanks again for the questions! Will jump right in...

OP, do you really need censorship resistance and go through the inefficiencies of the blockchain only to set up a sports betting exchange? What is the value proposition of this idea and what difference does it make if I use a regulated counterpart of your service that accepts Bitcoins and altcoins?

Hi Wind_FURY, good questions.

Some of the key reasons for us building Bookie on top of a blockchain (well, not any old blockchain, it's the Peerplays blockchain, which is built specifically for gaming and betting apps):

• Provably fair - All source code for Bookie will be available on Github. No secrets.
• Real-time transparency - All Bookie bets published on a public ledger in real-time. No more doubts or arguments about what bet was or was not made, what the stakes were, for how much, etc.

The same can be achieved by your centralized counterparts, so there is no added value in using a blockchain there.

With a centralized architecture, there is always a single authority who decides what transactional information is released and when (if ever).

By using the Peerplays blockchain as back-end, Bookie as a matter of fact has full, public, real-time disclosure of all transactions. This is built in to the tech - every bet

By the way, does anyone know of any centralized sportsbooks or exchanges that offer full, public disclosure of every transaction in real-time? We haven't heard of any, but interested to hear others' experience.

It is not a question of who is first to do it but does it give your service more value. But I am sure an argument can be made for yes it can and no it does not. But if your service is tied with gambling, I believe some things must remain private.

You will also for sure have problems with scaling some time in the future

Thanks to the Dmo09 for bringing up how DPoS & Graphene allows the Peerplays blockchain to scale (up to 10,000 transactions per second and beyond).

More info (including the BitShares stress test) can be found here:
https://www.peerplays.com/resources/#graphene

I will look into this. I know there are some top Bitcoiners who argue that DPOS sacrifices some decentralization, and plain POS is not a very good way to secure blockchains. I will read up on them and come back.

Regarding censorship-resistance in sports betting, this could be seen to have value for someone who finds themselves in a situation where such censorship is practiced.

Hope that answers your questions!

I could see some benefits of censorship resistance in your service. A good example of it would be if you are running an illegal and unlicensed P2P betting exchange. Are you running one?

The Bookie app is being developed by PBSA (that's us!) - check out http://bookie.exchange/ for the back story.

Once released, the Bookie app will be downloaded by end users and connect to the Peerplays blockchain, which takes care of all bet matching and settlement. The Peerplays blockchain is fully decentralized. PBSA has no operational or executive role in its operation. Independent "Witnesses" run the Peerplays blockchain (https://www.peerplays.com/governance/#witnesses).

So... No. PBSA is not running a betting exchange, unlicensed or otherwise.

But this is new tech and it doesn't fit neatly into established, traditional models. We really appreciate people like Wind_FURY taking the time to help us explain the disruptive tech behind Bookie and Peerplays.

You are playing loop the loop with the regulators. Hahaha. But does the service have a token? It reminds me a lot like the DAO, in how everything is set up.

[Judester]

Not quite sure how you will get away with not being classified as a betting exchange certainly from what I read about UK gaming law.
But hope you manage to pull it off as its high time the traditional sportsbooks who make millions and offer bad value to punters were disrupted!

Will you also be regulated to Oracles for event result determination?

[darksideday]

I think you would be mad not to have horse racing. Especially UK horse racing. It's always exchange's biggest earners due to the number of races in a given day which for UK & Ireland is over 20+. End of Q1 is Cheltenham festival where volume on betfair is over £120m turnover not to mention the other exchanges.. I think you should really consider it as an alternative, much bigger market than e-sports market where currently no real interest on current exchanges.

[bookieapps]

Not quite sure how you will get away with not being classified as a betting exchange certainly from what I read about UK gaming law.
But hope you manage to pull it off as its high time the traditional sportsbooks who make millions and offer bad value to punters were disrupted!

Will you also be regulated to Oracles for event result determination?

Hi Judester, Bookie will be fed with sports data through a decentralized Oracle system.

Thanks!

[bookieapps]

I think you would be mad not to have horse racing. Especially UK horse racing. It's always exchange's biggest earners due to the number of races in a given day which for UK & Ireland is over 20+. End of Q1 is Cheltenham festival where volume on betfair is over £120m turnover not to mention the other exchanges.. I think you should really consider it as an alternative, much bigger market than e-sports market where currently no real interest on current exchanges.

Hi darksideday, yes horse racing is hugely popular. Bookie won’t be offering this at launch, though, as it’s a little more complicated to bring to a decentralized betting exchange than other sports. But, it’s on our radar for the future. 

Agreed that betting on e-sports is minimal right now, but will be interesting to see how it grows.

[mr-whitekey]

How will Bookie verify the results?

[buwaytress]

Additional question to upper one - is it possible to void, modify results, unsettle bets manually? Jurisdiction rules (Regulation organizations) will be applicable (which one?) to bookie or you will be some type of  outlaw?

Actually, good question. At the moment, only one or two crypto-accepting bookies have good documentation on some of the unconventional rulings for sports bets. In general, most bets will be easily settled, but when there are contentious events (was the goal scored in 90th or 91st minute?), how long must the boxing match round last to be considered a full round (remember the controversy with Mayweather/Connor in August on a lot of bets made lasting 10 rounds)?

I'm guessing any blockchain-based sportsbook (I don't know Peerplay very well unfortunatel) could benefit from smart contracts that make some rules very clear, arbitrated by... some parties?

[belk001]

The poker world series would be a good one - bet on who you think the finalist would be/winner

[bookieapps]

How will Bookie verify the results?

Hello mr-whitekey,

Bookie will source all sports data and results using a decentralized Oracle system that is built into the underlying Peerplays blockchain. This Oracle system is fed by multiple sports data feeds.

[bookieapps]

Additional question to upper one - is it possible to void, modify results, unsettle bets manually? Jurisdiction rules (Regulation organizations) will be applicable (which one?) to bookie or you will be some type of  outlaw?

Node operators ("Witnesses" on the Peerplays blockchain) on the Peerplays blockchain will be able to manually report results (although we expect 99.9% of results to be handled automatically by the Oracle system). However, no single Witness will have the power to decide results/voids/bet settlements - it will require a majority (50%+1) of Witnesses to agree on results and bet settlements before they become accepted as "fact" by Bookie.

At launch, there will be no "resettlement" of bets. But a feature for Bookie is scheduled for release later in 2018 that will allow bettors to flag results they think are wrong and, if a certain number of users flag a particular result, Witnesses will be obliged to resettle the market manually to ensure correct resolution. More details on this later in the year.

[bookieapps]

Additional question to upper one - is it possible to void, modify results, unsettle bets manually? Jurisdiction rules (Regulation organizations) will be applicable (which one?) to bookie or you will be some type of  outlaw?

Actually, good question. At the moment, only one or two crypto-accepting bookies have good documentation on some of the unconventional rulings for sports bets. In general, most bets will be easily settled, but when there are contentious events (was the goal scored in 90th or 91st minute?), how long must the boxing match round last to be considered a full round (remember the controversy with Mayweather/Connor in August on a lot of bets made lasting 10 rounds)?

I'm guessing any blockchain-based sportsbook (I don't know Peerplay very well unfortunatel) could benefit from smart contracts that make some rules very clear, arbitrated by... some parties?

Right - on-chain smart contracts are at the heart of what Bookie is doing. The actual algorithms that are used to settle any particular market will be published for anyone to check. We do not foresee a need for arbitration (these settling algorithms should just do their job) but, as above, manual settlement by Witnesses is always a last resort. As always, a majority of Witnesses need to agree on a result/settlement before it gets executed.

[bookieapps]

The poker world series would be a good one - bet on who you think the finalist would be/winner

That’s an interesting idea. Could be something that’s added in time, but not likely for launch. Thanks for the suggestion!

[jburr-witness]

I'd love to see some support for the masters. Its in early April, so it should be right after bookie release.  Plenty of my acquaintances love betting on it, but it isn't a simple binary outcome like many sporting events would be.

[jburr-witness]

Also, just a few features I'd like to see since we don't hear from you all as often on telegram anymore.

- I think the feature that needs to be emphasized the most is the peer to peer nature of the exchange. I think it would be a cool addition if you could add people as friends, and send them bets directly to accept or decline. This would make it much more interactive for friends to enjoy, and thus, spread that much more virally.  And, it could become one of those things where people's casual bets that they never follow through with would be enforced on the blockchain. So you could never say "oh well we never shook on it so it doesn't count."

- Much like the bitshares system, Bookie needs a dollar-stable currency.  I think a ppyUSD would be a great way for newbies to mitigate their risk of using the ppy system and remove the volatility, while allowing those of us who believe deeply in the project to shoulder that risk/reward by creating ppyUSD. I don't think the cryptocurrency world will adopt a good betting platform unless this is an added feature. The casual bettor just wont accept betting $5, winning, and then getting $5 back because the cryptomarket tanked like it is now. I'm guessing this should be a relatively easy addition, considering ppy's roots in bitshares/graphene. I have said this before, but have never heard back on how/if this will be implemented, but I think it would be a very strong selling point to potential users.

I may chime in with other features if/when I think of them, but thanks for your time.

[Hhampuz]

This looks exciting if you'll be able to pull it off in the manner you expect to!

I'd like to see eSports, mainly CS:GO being added as there's currently not that many bookies around offering good options for it.

[buwaytress]

Additional question to upper one - is it possible to void, modify results, unsettle bets manually? Jurisdiction rules (Regulation organizations) will be applicable (which one?) to bookie or you will be some type of  outlaw?

Actually, good question. At the moment, only one or two crypto-accepting bookies have good documentation on some of the unconventional rulings for sports bets. In general, most bets will be easily settled, but when there are contentious events (was the goal scored in 90th or 91st minute?), how long must the boxing match round last to be considered a full round (remember the controversy with Mayweather/Connor in August on a lot of bets made lasting 10 rounds)?

I'm guessing any blockchain-based sportsbook (I don't know Peerplay very well unfortunatel) could benefit from smart contracts that make some rules very clear, arbitrated by... some parties?

Right - on-chain smart contracts are at the heart of what Bookie is doing. The actual algorithms that are used to settle any particular market will be published for anyone to check. We do not foresee a need for arbitration (these settling algorithms should just do their job) but, as above, manual settlement by Witnesses is always a last resort. As always, a majority of Witnesses need to agree on a result/settlement before it gets executed.

Thanks for the response - like I said, I'm not aware of any smart contract model used yet for sportsbooks, but as you explain, that very basic application is already extremely useful in sports bet settlements. I have only been betting in sports for a few years but have seen several contentious decisions taken by bookies even with comprehensive rules on settlement.

But with newer sports like MMA especially or even e-sports, I doubt bookies have really refined the rules, or there are too obscure for players to understand. Publishing the algorithms for every market - and every bet even, would go a long way to mitigate this. Don't take too long to update us about this - we gamblers tend to move on quickly

[bookieapps]

Also, just a few features I'd like to see since we don't hear from you all as often on telegram anymore.

- I think the feature that needs to be emphasized the most is the peer to peer nature of the exchange. I think it would be a cool addition if you could add people as friends, and send them bets directly to accept or decline. This would make it much more interactive for friends to enjoy, and thus, spread that much more virally.  And, it could become one of those things where people's casual bets that they never follow through with would be enforced on the blockchain. So you could never say "oh well we never shook on it so it doesn't count."

- Much like the bitshares system, Bookie needs a dollar-stable currency.  I think a ppyUSD would be a great way for newbies to mitigate their risk of using the ppy system and remove the volatility, while allowing those of us who believe deeply in the project to shoulder that risk/reward by creating ppyUSD. I don't think the cryptocurrency world will adopt a good betting platform unless this is an added feature. The casual bettor just wont accept betting $5, winning, and then getting $5 back because the cryptomarket tanked like it is now. I'm guessing this should be a relatively easy addition, considering ppy's roots in bitshares/graphene. I have said this before, but have never heard back on how/if this will be implemented, but I think it would be a very strong selling point to potential users.

I may chime in with other features if/when I think of them, but thanks for your time.

Welcome! I’ll reply to both of your messages here.

1. The Masters - This is a great event. We actually ran a non-binary Super Bowl betting market during Bookie Beta Phase 1 this past weekend - "Which player will be named MVP?". The results were positive, so this is absolutely the type of event we can target in the future. That said, another key element of bringing certain sports on board is to have resilient data feeds in place that allow automated market management in that sport. As a Witness you are particularly well-placed to help make this happen in the run-up to Bookie launch. We look forward to your participation in making your suggestion a reality!

2. When PBSA began thinking about sports betting, we wanted a model that could be easily decentralized and where there was already an existing market to disrupt. Betting exchanges fit this perfectly - they are already P2P and have carved out a huge market for themselves during the past 15+ years now. Betting exchanges anonymize your bet and make it fully fungible in a standardized marketplace. Introducing a feature that allows users to place bets directly against each other would be cool but there is simply no existing market for this kind of product. PBSA is dedicated at this stage to bringing provably-fair product to the Peerplays blockchain - product that will scale up and disrupt existing gaming markets. Head-to-head betting may be something to look at further down the line.

3. This is an interesting idea and, of course, something we have spent a lot of time thinking through. Bookie is one of many crypto-projects that would benefit from a resilient, scalable stablecoin. As a Graphene chain, the possibility of something like a ppyUSD is there, as you say. Although it is unlikely to be something you see on Bookie at launch, we are continually looking at ways that Bookie (and other Peerplays DApps) can be made more accessible for the casual market.

Thanks again for your ideas. We look forward to hearing your future thoughts when they pop up!