[HAVELOCK] Crypto Financial (CFIG) Official Thread

[Eb0la]

It takes time and effort
to train our KYC/AML/SAR team and it does not start on day one when we open our "doors" but at least a couple
of month ahead of time, so that we will be able to offer any customers our best service.

I work in customer service for a world wide company (If it does you are hiring the wrong people).  It does not take MONTHs to train people.  I have to work on many custom designed platforms so I am speaking from experience.  Perhaps a few weeks at most.  

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[jedunnigan]

I don't see the reasoning for needing customer service / tech support for a startup like this.  Lets call it what it is.. a startup.  With the amount of volume they are going to have in the beginning there is no reason to be paying people to sit there doing nothing.  a team of 2-3 can probably handle this for the first little bit in their spare time most likely.  If they cannot and business is actually BOOMing so much then again if they had that kind of capital already funded.. why do they require another 3m? 

Valuation for a startup of 10+Million plus is outrageous.  sorry.

An idea is just 1% of a business, not 99%. 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and defend Crypto on the CS front.

Eb0la, while I respect your opinion, as you do this for a living, I'm sure you recognize that IF this takes off, it will take less then a month for it to explode. These services are DESPERATELY needed, and I imagine that there are many many customers who are lying dormant waiting for such an entity. If that is the case you can be sure people will be banging on their door to no end when the time comes that they do open. I'd much rather a extra-support scenario then a another BitInstant-esque fiasco. No? Am I looking at this the wrong way?

[jedunnigan]

Based on the valuation the Financial data is necessary if Crypto Financial wishes to send the full prospectus to Korbman or JohnK who can verify this data it would calm down the chaos a fair bit and allow us to determine the risks associated of the investment regarding financial capital.

I don't have personal relationships with either of them, perhaps someone who does could send them a PM and ask nicely?

[BitHub]

Stop the madness

[bitfair]

I have been doing some thinking, and I have a question.

Let's set up a hypothetical scenario: First, let's assume that this venture is legit (personally, I'm content that it is). Second, let's assume it turns out to be a resounding success and helps BTC really take flight -- and consequently the value of one BTC increases dramatically.

Given that hypothetical scenario: would the potential investor be better off keeping his coins and waiting for the increased value (essentially getting a free ride), or would the potential investor be better off risking his coins buying shares now? In either case, the potential investor wins, but if he simply holds his coins he can win -- but without taking the extra risk.

If this venture is successful, will the rewards from investing exceed the rewards from just holding the coins? Will the exchanges pay fees in USD or BTC, and in what form will the profit be forwarded to the investors?

[Did that make any sense at all?]

[kleeck]

I have been doing some thinking, and I have a question.

Let's set up a hypothetical scenario: First, let's assume that this venture is legit (personally, I'm content that it is). Second, let's assume it turns out to be a resounding success and helps BTC really take flight -- and consequently the value of one BTC increases dramatically.

Given that hypothetical scenario: would the potential investor be better off keeping his coins and waiting for the increased value (essentially getting a free ride), or would the potential investor be better off risking his coins buying shares now? In either case, the potential investor wins, but if he simply holds his coins he can win -- but without taking the extra risk.

If this venture is successful, will the rewards from investing exceed the rewards from just holding the coins? Will the exchanges pay fees in USD or BTC, and in what form will the profit be forwarded to the investors?

[Did that make any sense at all?]

It did. At least to my wine-soaked brain.

I don't think there is anything to gain in investing right now. The IPO is barely moving at the moment. The masses are waiting for confirmation that this a legit venture, and many (much to my disappointment) do not consider Havelock alone to be a good, valid source of confirmation. However, if you TRULY believe in this, investing now does help move the IPO, which could cause a cascading effect on the buy up. (How many are on the sidelines?)

Me? I invested early. Within the first couple hundred shares. Not because I expect a return 'RIGHT NOA' but because I like to think this Bitcoin idea has a chance, and these guys are out on a limb looking for some support that could change everything. I know, I know, foolish and altruistic, right? Someday I'll get these rose-colored glasses off...

[jedunnigan]

I have been doing some thinking, and I have a question.

Let's set up a hypothetical scenario: First, let's assume that this venture is legit (personally, I'm content that it is). Second, let's assume it turns out to be a resounding success and helps BTC really take flight -- and consequently the value of one BTC increases dramatically.

Given that hypothetical scenario: would the potential investor be better off keeping his coins and waiting for the increased value (essentially getting a free ride), or would the potential investor be better off risking his coins buying shares now? In either case, the potential investor wins, but if he simply holds his coins he can win -- but without taking the extra risk.

If this venture is successful, will the rewards from investing exceed the rewards from just holding the coins? Will the exchanges pay fees in USD or BTC, and in what form will the profit be forwarded to the investors?

[Did that make any sense at all?]

It did. At least to my wine-soaked brain.

I don't think there is anything to gain in investing right now. The IPO is barely moving at the moment. The masses are waiting for confirmation that this a legit venture, and many (much to my disappointment) do not consider Havlock alone to be a good, valid source of confirmation. However, if you TRULY believe in this, investing now does help move the IPO, which could cause a cascading effect on the buy up. (How many are on the sidelines?)

Me? I invested early. Within the first couple hundred shares. Not because I expect a return 'RIGHT NOA' but because I like to think this Bitcoin idea has a chance, and these guys are out on a limb looking for some support that could change everything. I know, I know, foolish and altruistic, right? Someday I'll get these rose-colored glasses off...

I don't think that is entirely foolish at all. In fact I think if Havelock had spoken up earlier the conversation would be different; instead we were left to our own devices and now we find ourselves here. That's no problem though, if they come through (which I think they will), the short delay now will be meaningless and you will have just made the right bet that much sooner. They are offering a huge service to the community, could game change things. This is the real life BTC Global people. Not some vaporware mamzy pamzy NDA wannabe

Yea the ROI might not be dream status but less has been had for more and this, like I said, is big. IMO there is billions in bitcoin banking.

Not to mention I came across some other info about them in my sleuthing that I will not publish and have instructed them to take down that indicates to me they are who they say they are and are [at least to an extent] doing what they say they are doing.

[Duffer1]

Havelock how could we trust you on this?  The valuation is ridiculous.  Do you vouch for the valuation?

@Crypto nothing you've shown me indicates that this is a profit sharing endeavor everything currently points to greedy company overvaluation and risk externalization that will almost certainly result in a loss for the sucker investor.  Why didn't you just come to the community with the real valuation and offer a fixed interest bond?  (Too risky perhaps?) At least then you wouldn't have to dodge the valuation question like Bush dodging shoes.

I hope you can prove me wrong.

[havelock]

Havelock how could we trust you on this?  The valuation is ridiculous.  Do you vouch for the valuation?

@Crypto nothing you've shown me indicates that this is a profit sharing endeavor everything currently points to greedy company overvaluation and risk externalization that will almost certainly result in a loss for the sucker investor.  Why didn't you just come to the community with the real valuation and offer a fixed interest bond?  (Too risky perhaps?) At least then you wouldn't have to dodge the valuation question like Bush dodging shoes.

I hope you can prove me wrong.

Havelock has performed our diligence to the best of our ability on Crypto Financial to ensure it is a trustworthy enterprise.  We make no guarantees to the long-term success of any companies listed on Havelock, but we aim to ensure they are quality companies that will do their best to succeed.  Market forces will determine if the valuation ends up being reasonable.  It's always best to only invest when you fully understand and are comfortable with an investment.  Cheers.

[Ninshatamoto]

Boy look at those shares just flying out the door...../s

[Crypto Financial]

From: Crypto Financial

To any current and potential shareholders,

We understand that our customers will be you! The Bitcoin miner, user, buyer, trader etc...
The first thing we want to do is to make sure that our customers are happy. This is a unique business venture as
many of our shareholders will be our customers. We want to treat you right straight from the start. We want to build
our business from the ground up based on your needs not ours. We have been following Bitcoin for quite a while and
have been working hard behind the scenes with Havelock Investments and other Bitcoin business to bring our Business Plan
into existence. While never forgetting who we are here to eventually serve, YOU!

This forum is here for one purpose in our opinion and that is to give any potential person, be they a future customer or shareholder an opportunity to
tell us what they want from our service. We don't want to be "That Company" that never listens to their customers, ignores their e-mails and
provides non-existent customer service. Our background is in Private Banking "Where the Customers is always right and if he isn't right, then we better
make the world right for him." Non of us want to dive into this new venture with any prejudice against any customer. We want to treat you as our partners.
Without you the Bitcoin user, non of this is worth while.

So please take the time to tell us what we are doing right. Tell us what we are doing wrong. How can we change the way we plan to do business to better
serve you, the Bitcoin community. There is no right or wrong answer. We promise you that any suggestion or criticism will be taken into account, and we will review
them and try to work to resolve them.

Let us work together in bringing Crypto Financial into the Bitcoin World.

Talk to us, we are listening..

Feel free to call us  +507-833-9096 and tell us what you think.
Leave a message if we didn't answer, we will do our best to call you back (We are still understaffed)

[Duffer1]

Havelock has performed our diligence to the best of our ability on Crypto Financial to ensure it is a trustworthy enterprise.  We make no guarantees to the long-term success of any companies listed on Havelock, but we aim to ensure they are quality companies that will do their best to succeed.

I believe you.

Market forces will determine if the valuation ends up being reasonable.

Hogwash.  We're talking about immediate risk and future value.  Not just future value.

Who would put up 3mil of a 15mil valuation without seeing anything that comes close to 12mil from the other parties?  Crypto Financial is offering a great idea, a valuable idea, a valuable service.  I want it to succeed.  I even trust you, and them, when you both say that they have the team to pull it off.  But if it's as I suspect and the 3mil is close to 75+% of risked assets, I want more than 20% of the company.  If 3mil was 50% of risked assets (6mil valuation), I'd still need more than 20%.  Unless I was buying a bond.  

Let's forget about the dodgy valuation for now, and look at some other reasons why this offer is just not attractive:

- Overpaying for projected growth.  The cost of each share is overpriced for the first two years of projected earnings IMO, and you have to wait a YEAR before you even start to see it (assuming accurate break even projection).  The obvious conclusion:
- This offer is not competitive in any way.  I believe in supporting crypto currency related ventures, but I can't afford to support them for free.  You know what I'm going to ask, but here it is anyways: Why would I even consider CFIG?  Throw a dart at a list of offerings and you'll hit one with history and profitability.  Not only is it not competitive in any way, any projected ROI or p/e ratio would just be a gamble (longshot imo).  I'd rate the possibility of ROI down at the bottom of the list... just above Kenilworth.  Why?  Because it could take this company 10 years to ever reach $15mil valuation and they're asking for that up front.

Tell us what we are doing wrong.

You're dodging the questions regarding your valuation, and your IPO isn't competitive at all in the current market.  Your prospectus lists $10mil in assets, but all you've shown us in real assets couldn't possibly add up to more than $100,000.  Where does that $10mil number come from?  

-Is it just the net worth of the individuals involved that could potentially be used for future liquidity?  If so then why aren't they taking the risk and investing in this startup now with their own capital?

-Is it capital that has been raised and dedicated to this project?  Specifically how much capital has been raised for this project (not including the Havelock IPO)?

-Is it a projected future value of the company that you're counting as a current 'asset'?  Really?

[nubbins]

The funds raised are not set as an all or nothing IPO sell. It will help us determine our fee structure. The more we can raise by offering this IPO the lower we will be able to keep the cost of our fees and allow for greater access to our product and services.

At the current rate of purchase, you're on track to sell ~38,000 IPO shares by 2013-08-31. Granted, it's pretty early on, but I don't think anyone believes even the first tranche of shares will sell.

If the first tranche of shares fails to sell out, what are your plans? It seems like the plan is to subsidize fees with the IPO shares. Will a lackluster IPO result in unattractively high fees? If the IPO is a success, how long will fees be subsidized? It doesn't sound very forward-thinking to be spending IPO money on waiving service fees.

[jedunnigan]

So please take the time to tell us what we are doing right. Tell us what we are doing wrong. How can we change the way we plan to do business to better
serve you, the Bitcoin community. There is no right or wrong answer. We promise you that any suggestion or criticism will be taken into account, and we will review
them and try to work to resolve them.

Let us work together in bringing Crypto Financial into the Bitcoin World.

Talk to us, we are listening..

Wow, I was really excited about this, but now I'm a bit confused and disheartened. Read:

Since Crypto Financial Company does not loan out or invest customer’s funds, our revenue will only derive from Fees of Inbound, Outbound wires, transfers to an Exchange of a Crypto Currency, Conversions fee of Fiat Currencies USD – EUR, EUR – JPY and another 20 Fiat Currencies., Commission on Trades of Crypto Currencies and Visa Debit Card related fees.

So every fiat <-->crypto trade that happens on your "Excahnge Platform" through my [hypothetical bitcoin business] gets a fee tacked on by you? Even if I am making the market, not you? What is that fee/commission exactly? Is there a scenario where you would be willing to waiver the fee and instead we give you a lump sum of cash to be agents of your license autonomously? (in that scenario we would set our own fees and do KYC/AML ourselves and send you the details when audited - in this case our customers do not have your debit card or a bank account with you, they simply trust us with the funds). That is a response to this:

Any Crypto Currency sold on the exchange could be funded back directly to the customer’s private account instantly and then these funds may be withdrawn from the account which can be accessed worldwide via a Visa Debit Card issued on behalf of the customer.
...
In essence the Exchange platform will serve our customers when it comes to trading Fiat to Crypto Currency and vice versa, the same way a Stock trading platform company provides the software, but the Financial Services Company (“Broker”) represent the customers and takes care of the regulation side of the business.
...
Since Crypto Financial Company does not loan out or invest customer’s funds, our revenue will only derive from Fees of Inbound, Outbound wires, transfers to an Exchange of a Crypto Currency, Conversions fee of Fiat Currencies USD – EUR, EUR – JPY and another 20 Fiat Currencies., Commission on Trades of Crypto Currencies and Visa Debit Card related fees."

Thank you.

[bitfair]

(...)

- This offer is not competitive in any way.  I believe in supporting crypto currency related ventures, but I can't afford to support them for free.  You know what I'm going to ask, but here it is anyways: Why would I even consider CFIG?  Throw a dart at a list of offerings and you'll hit one with history and profitability.  Not only is it not competitive in any way, any projected ROI or p/e ratio would just be a gamble (longshot imo).  I'd rate the possibility of ROI down at the bottom of the list... just above Kenilworth.  Why?  Because it could take this company 10 years to ever reach $15mil valuation and they're asking for that up front.

(...)

First of all, and with all due respect, I think the existing set of "bitcoin companies" is not a good base for comparison: most "bitcoin companies" that solicit investments are fairly dodgy and amateurish, mostly some people looking to finance their mining gear. The returns on some shady basement-dwellers mining-farm better be unbelievably good, because the risks are definitely astronomical. This venture, however, appears very professional and experienced, and has sunk plenty of their own resources into the company.

I'm not saying that automatically makes it a good investment, but I would be more inclined to compare it to companies like Bitpay, Coinsetter, Paymium, etc. than with Kenilworth. These startup companies also offered a "bad ROI".

Second of all, depending on how you choose to calculate "ROI", it may be the wrong measure for evaluating a startup company. Look a few years ahead: if they are successful in doing what they intend to do, how much would the company be worth? In a few years time, they might be responsible for a substantial portion of the bitcoin-related money-transfers in and out of exchanges for a worldwide audience. What would such a company be worth? In my humble opinion, it would surely be worth more than $15 million for sure!

So if you believe in bitcoin, believe in the product, and believe in the team delivering it, then you shouldn't be afraid that you will lose money on it. At the same time, the service - if successful - will help the entire ecosystem grow.

This offering is very different from Joe's 100TH/s basement mining farm that is offering "better ROI".

[bobdude17]

I think it's important to note that they are looking to raise 3 million dollars of funds. Meaning that if Bitcoin's price were to spike then they could have a successful IPO much faster than you think, despite not selling all of the shares. (They might be anticipating this)
Thus them saying that the company will still move ahead despite the IPO not being sold out. Also if an established bank is already sponsoring them, it would not be a stretch to value the sponsorship of an already established international bank at 12 mil in such a relevant sector.

[Duffer1]

...and has sunk plenty of their own resources into the company.

Yes, the big question.  Specifically how much of their own resources?  Hardware manufacturers and gambling sites might seem dodgy but they've proven themselves trustworthy(ish), and extremely valuable.

I'm not saying that automatically makes it a good investment, but I would be more inclined to compare it to companies like Bitpay, Coinsetter, Paymium, etc. than with Kenilworth. These startup companies also offered a "bad ROI".

 

Bitpay was angeled $500,000 (so was Coinsetter and Paymium) then easily raised another 2mil from VC insiders.  Their value was abundantly obvious, and the buy in was a pretty sweet deal for the insiders who landed the deals (well.. gg paymium).  The opposite of that is true here.  The utility of the product is obvious, but the value isn't, and the buy-in is absurd.

I understand what Crypto Finance could be, but right now it's an overpriced idea.

[nubbins]

I think it's important to note that they are looking to raise 3 million dollars of funds. Meaning that if Bitcoin's price were to spike then they could have a successful IPO much faster than you think, despite not selling all of the shares. (They might be anticipating this)

If that's their plan, that's SO MUCH WORSE.

I dunno, man. I hate to say it, but does anyone else get the feeling lately that Havelock is becoming more interested in the quantity of funds than the quality?

[Duffer1]

I think it's important to note that they are looking to raise 3 million dollars of funds. Meaning that if Bitcoin's price were to spike then they could have a successful IPO much faster than you think, despite not selling all of the shares. (They might be anticipating this)

If that's their plan, that's SO MUCH WORSE.

I dunno, man. I hate to say it, but does anyone else get the feeling lately that Havelock is becoming more interested in the quantity of funds than the quality?

I don't get that feeling.  It really wouldn't matter to me even if they did start offering trash.

[ddalex]

2 days and only 5% of "Crypto Financial (CFIG)" IPO sold.
Shure, the idea, the documentation published are good. But without having seen a functioning Web site (version 0.1) I am not ready to invest.