BTC must split into smaller units to survive

[leopard2]

To anyone who has working eyes and brains, it should be clear now that today, the only important factor for success of  a cryptocoin (or a non-cryptocoin like XRP) is, that it looks cheap. Just go on coinmarketcap; circulation upside down. Result: higher supply coins get all the profit. Cardano, XLM, XRP, Iota, et cetera.

The reason for this is: in the early days crypto was mainly used by smart people, and smart people understand that something that is rare, should cost more than something that is abundant.

But stupid people (or inexperienced kids) only look at price. It is only too human. Now crypto is getting mainstream, average IQ has dropped like an upside-down chart of XRP or XLM.

https://www.ccn.com/south-korean-students-flock-to-cryptocurrency-despite-establishments-warnings/

Young people are gravitating to altcoins that trade at lower values than bitcoin, according to analysts

Only solution is splitting. Stocks do it all the time.

I propose a hardfork, 1 BTC (old) = 1000 BTC (new)  

It would do more for the success of Bitcoin, than Segwit and all the other shit combined, just this one thing!

It would also make it more practical for smaller payments....

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[pawanjain]

I propose a hardfork, 1 BTC (old) = 1000 BTC (new) 

I don't think this would solve the problem as there have already been some hardforks which were been done for the same purposes. The  bitcoin cash and segwit both wanted to clear the issues with bitcoin but yet BTC is still working as it is. All the forked coins has turned into altcoins with BTC running the same way as it was but with more difficulties. So if at all BTC is forked again the forked coin will still be called another altcoin. There has to be a solution to solve with BTC itself and forking wont do that job. Lets see how good the LN helps BTC.

[DannyHamilton]

To anyone who has working eyes and brains, it should be clear now that today, the only important factor for success of a cryptocoin (or a non-cryptocoin like XRP) is, that it looks cheap.

You and I have very different definitions of the word "success".

I propose a hardfork, 1 BTC (old) = 1000 BTC (new)  

I actually agree with you on this.  However, it might cause a lot of confusion if some people know about the split and some don't.  We can avoid that problem by changing the name slightly on the split coin.

Lets call the split version "millibitcoin", or we can use a slang name for it like "millies".

The great thing about it is we can do this without even needing a code fork!  We can do it today, right now!  Anyone that wants it to happen can just immediately start talking in terms of "millies" and everyone will quickly adapt to knowing that they can multiply any bitcoin amount by 1000 to know how many "millies" to send.

[ccie38216]

I think a hard fork split would be a stupid move. The most confusing thing I notice most every day people are challenged with is the decimal place. When I tell random people who have no clue what bitcoin is that I have 1 millionth of a bitcoin they're like wtf?

I would simply propose moving the decimal so 21,000,000.00000000 becomes 21,000,000,000,000.00

Technically the maximum number of bitcoin does not change, just how you read it. 21 million becomes 21 trillion which at this point is about the amount of the US debt lol...

Making it easier for everyday people to understand is ultimately going to make it easier for mass adoption Anywho thats just my two sense lol

[13abyknight]

To anyone who has working eyes and brains, it should be clear now that today, the only important factor for success of  a cryptocoin (or a non-cryptocoin like XRP) is, that it looks cheap. Just go on coinmarketcap; circulation upside down. Result: higher supply coins get all the profit. Cardano, XLM, XRP, Iota, et cetera.

The reason for this is: in the early days crypto was mainly used by smart people, and smart people understand that something that is rare, should cost more than something that is abundant.

But stupid people (or inexperienced kids) only look at price. It is only too human. Now crypto is getting mainstream, average IQ has dropped like an upside-down chart of XRP or XLM.

Agreeing with you here as there's no point of seeing Bitcoin at 100k or 1M while the likes of XRP and IOTA can simply stay at a small figure value and still dominate the market cap. Might even see XRP overtaking BTC in market cap over the next few years as limited supply means everything relying on the price.

Only solution is splitting. Stocks do it all the time.

I propose a hardfork, 1 BTC (old) = 1000 BTC (new)  

Stocks are completely different from digital currencies. You're referring Bitcoin as an investment here while it is just a currency for most of the part. Hard forking like that would cause a drastic dip in the price even after dividing it by 1000 as it would set off panic and isn't something the core would think about.

[Chrstian]

This made me laugh because he actually has a point.. I've spoken to someone complaining about how the barrier to entry for Bitcoin was so high (they legitimately thought they had to buy "a Bitcoin" to invest). There have been a number of other conversations I've had with people wondering how people can keep buying Bitcoin when they cost so much to buy. They all look legitimately surprised when I tell them you can buy 1/1000th or even 1/1,000,000th of a bitcoin if you really wanted to.. it may take a while for people to learn but I'm sure eventually the public will catch on... maybe

[audaciousbeing]

To anyone who has working eyes and brains, it should be clear now that today, the only important factor for success of  a cryptocoin (or a non-cryptocoin like XRP) is, that it looks cheap. Just go on coinmarketcap; circulation upside down. Result: higher supply coins get all the profit. Cardano, XLM, XRP, Iota, et cetera.

The reason for this is: in the early days crypto was mainly used by smart people, and smart people understand that something that is rare, should cost more than something that is abundant.

But stupid people (or inexperienced kids) only look at price. It is only too human. Now crypto is getting mainstream, average IQ has dropped like an upside-down chart of XRP or XLM.

https://www.ccn.com/south-korean-students-flock-to-cryptocurrency-despite-establishments-warnings/

Young people are gravitating to altcoins that trade at lower values than bitcoin, according to analysts

Only solution is splitting. Stocks do it all the time.

I propose a hardfork, 1 BTC (old) = 1000 BTC (new)  

It would do more for the success of Bitcoin, than Segwit and all the other shit combined, just this one thing!

It would also make it more practical for smaller payments....

I will disagree with you on the bold part of your message in the following ways

1. You don't have to go on the insultive side in trying to pass your message across as you can do in a well matured way than going that route of insulting as if you are the most intelligent in the whole community.

2. The factor you noted as the only important in the success of a crypto coin is being cheap is grossly wrong because a lot of coin way below certain amount gets interest lost which then leads to it being delisted from several exchange sites. Beyond being cheap other factors are very key.

3. People who only look that the price should not be categorised as being stupid rather inexperienced as you have used because whether we like it or not they have contributed to the growth of bitcoin and concluding to move to other coins because its cheap, that is not the sole purpose they are actually doing it with the hope that it will be more valuable tomorrow in which they can then make maximum profit.

[DannyHamilton]

I would simply propose moving the decimal so 21,000,000.00000000 becomes 21,000,000,000,000.00

Technically the maximum number of bitcoin does not change, just how you read it. 21 million becomes 21 trillion

This has already happened.  You can start using the new terms immediately, and some wallets even support it already.

In order to avoid confusion (so that people wouldn't have to ask if you mean the "old 1 bitcoin amount or the new 1 bitcoin amount"), it was given a slightly new name.

If you want to use the type of bitcoins where there are now 21,000,000,000,000.00 of them, then you just need to find a wallet that supports the new name "microbitcoin".  Since the Scientific Symbol for "micro" is "µ" this will often be written as µBTC (so that it doesn't get confused with the old BTC amounts).

This change is 100% compatible with the old bitcoin network and with all old bitcoin wallets.  It is not an "altcoin" and it is not a forked blockchain.  All Bitcoin wallets are able to receive funds that are sent as µBTC amounts.  They will automatically convert to BTC amounts in wallets that do not yet fully support displaying amounts as µBTC.

Furthermore, this new representation with the moved decimal point comes with a catchy nickname.  Just like people often call a $1 bill a "greenback" or a $5 bill a "Lincoln", I've heard people refering to this new Bitcoin amount with the moved decimal point as "Mike's" (short for microbitcoin!).

So, find yourself a wallet that supports the moved decimal point, send all of your bitcoins there, and you can immediately start sending and receiving Mikes.

0.00000500 BTC = 5 µBTC (also known as 5 Mikes).

1 BTC = 1,000,000 µBTC (also known as a million Mikes).

[DannyHamilton]

that would cause a drastic dip in the price even after dividing it by 1000 as it would set off panic and isn't something the core would think about.

It's already been done.  See my post above.

It's actually been done twice.

The decimal point was moved 3 places to the right, and the amount was given a great new name "millibitcoin" often written as mBTC.  This is 100% compatible with the current BTC network, and ALL bitcoin wallets can accept amounts that are sent as mBTC (if the receiving wallet doesn't yet have the mBTC naming convention built in, the network will AUTOMATICALLY convert the amount from mBTC to BTC as they are received in the wallet (with no exchange fees EVER!).  There is a new nickname that is already catching on for this new amount, "Millies".

So:

0.001 BTC can already be used in some wallets as 1 millibitcoin  (often written as 1 mBTC) and can be called 1 Millie!

1 BTC can already be used in some wallets as 1,000 millibitcoin  (often written as 1,000 mBTC) and can be called 1 thousand Millies!

Then the decimal was moved 3 MORE places to the right, and the the amount was given a great new name "microbitcoin" often written as µBTC.  This is 100% compatible with the current BTC network, and ALL bitcoin wallets can accept amounts that are sent as µBTC (if the receiving wallet doesn't yet have the µBTC naming convention built in, the network will AUTOMATICALLY convert the amount from µBTC to BTC as they are received in the wallet (with no exchange fees EVER!).  There is a new nickname that is already catching on for this new amount, "Mikes".

So:

0.000001 BTC can already be used in some wallets as 1 microbitcoin (often written as 1 µBTC) and can be called 1 Mike!

0.001 BTC can already be used in some wallets as 1,000 microbitcoin  (often written as 1,000 µBTC) and can be called 1 thousand Mikes!

1 BTC can already be used in some wallets as 1,000,000 microbitcoin  (often written as 1,000,000 µBTC) and can be called 1 million Mikes!

[DannyHamilton]

I tell them you can buy 1/1000th or even 1/1,000,000th of a bitcoin if you really wanted to..

Exactly!

The system already had a 1000:1 split and then another 1000:1 split after that.  People just aren't aware of it yet, and they aren't familliar with the new naming convention for the split amounts.

If you want to buy 1/1000th of a bitcoin, then you are buying from the first split.  These are called millibitcoin (often written as mBTC), and a nickname is catching on: "Millies".  So, if you want 5 of the 1:1000 split coins, then you want 5 Millies!.  At an exchange rate of $16300 per BTC that works out to an exchange rate of only $16.30 per Millie!

If you want to buy the 1/1,000,000th of a bitcoin, then you are buying from the second split.  These are called microbitcoin (often written as µBTC since the scientific symbol for micro is µ), and a nickname is catching on: "Mikes".  So, if you want 5 of the 1:1,000,000 split coins, then you want 5 Mikes!.  At an exchange rate of $16300 per BTC that works out to an exchange rate of ONLY $0.0163 per Mike!  (just a bit more than a penny-and-a-half)!!!

[Coin-Keeper]

I have seen this coming for awhile now.  When I first started BTC, buying 3-5 BTC was considered more like a "change" transaction (small annoyance amount).  Now we are at the point where a full coin or more is only exchanged by a small percentage of transactions and its getting more and more scarce.  The concerns I have as I watch this unfold or for how transaction expenses are going to play out.  Nobody in the game over the long haul is going to get confused over Mike's, millies, you insert the new buzzword name here, etc.....   The reality regardless of the "name" is that we are transacting with a fraction of a coin and now the big consideration is how much is the cost to move that fraction to the new receiving address in the blockchain?  As it stands I am using BTC for my longterm holdings but short term I use BCH because transactions move for "cheap" and when you are talking about a hundred dollar item that is a tiny BTC fraction.  I am not a BCH lover or anything.  I was lucky enough to score a "free" pile of them by having BTC in the chain before the split.  Figure I may as well use BCH cheap transactions for little stuff and wait and watch how this all goes.

[mlgblockchain]

The worst news is, all people are thinking that the price or the value of the bitcoin will only keep rising. Most of the people involved in bitcoin sees Bitcoins as a way of investment. The forget that the primary characteristic of bitcoin is that it's a currency, not a property or asset. And those people still use fiat money if they want to spend their money. In order to get that fiat money they sell their bitcoins. They don't use the bitcoins for buying things (of course it's not possible every time). We witness the nature of the fall in last December which indicates that bitcoin doesn't follow a constant upward trend.

[Quartermark]

The providers of wallet software will learn to adjust the UI so it displays a denomination by default that is appropriate to their users. The Satoshi is a sufficiently small unit for the foreseeable future (even if BTC were $1,000,000.00 each a Satoshi would be $.01). The market reporting and exchanges will adjust similarly. We can help them along by talking about "mBTC" amongst ourselves and in public, rather than BTC. We can make suggestions to the exchanges, publications and UI developers as well, but they will find their way even if we don't push.

[posi]

I support the proposed hardfork of 1 BTC (old or legacy) = 1000 BTC (new) which will spicy up the smaller payment issue than the other forks SegWit etc. But I wonder when such fork will end cause another 3 forks will happen this January. Meanwhile, in other to achieve the proposed hardfork the bitcoin transaction stuck/delay need to be fix.

[LoyceV]

I propose a hardfork, 1 BTC (old) = 1000 BTC (new)  

I propose to just change the units in your wallet: 1 BTC now = 1000 mBTC now. And that is exactly what I've been doing since I started using Bitcoin (almost 3 years ago). When I started, one base unit was worth $0.20, now it's $16.40.
I find it much more convenient to have units worth about the same as a dollar/euro, but we can't keep forking Bitcoin every time it goes up in value. Some shitforks are already doing this, but that doesn't make it Bitcoin.

The only thing I don't like, is how "millibitcoin" sounds when I say it out loud. It's too long and not nearly as catchy as "Bitcoin".
During my time as a Mod at Rollin.io, I've seen many people ask questions like: "how many mBTC is a BTC?". I don't know if they're just dumb, uneducated, or used to imperial units, as to me it's just common sense to use SI-units.

Lets call the split version "millibitcoin", or we can use a slang name for it like "millies".

That still doesn't sound right to me.

This made me laugh because he actually has a point.. I've spoken to someone complaining about how the barrier to entry for Bitcoin was so high (they legitimately thought they had to buy "a Bitcoin" to invest). There have been a number of other conversations I've had with people wondering how people can keep buying Bitcoin when they cost so much to buy.

As irrational as it is, I've heard it from several people too: "I'll buy some Verge, just for fun, because it's so cheap". People who say this don't realize the total supply is 1000 times bigger than with Bitcoin.
Of course it's not rational, but most people aren't rational when it comes to money.

The system already had a 1000:1 split and then another 1000:1 split after that.  People just aren't aware of it yet, and they aren't familliar with the new naming convention for the split amounts.

I think leopard2's point is that all exchanges call it "Bitcoin", they don't list smaller units than that.
The Byteball-thread has a lot of discussion about changing the unit from GBYTE ($870) to MBYTE ($0.87). I used to think this doesn't matter, but I've come to realize it does matter. Changing the units in my own wallet doesn't change how it's listed and traded.

On the other hand, how nice is it that 1 Bitcoin has a very large value, and that value is (most of the time) going up? An average car: 2 Bitcoins! Maybe somewhere in the future we can say the same about a house: just 2 Bitcoins!
That makes Bitcoins more like gold bars: everybody knows a gold bar is expensive, and everybody knows you can buy gold in smaller portions than big bars.

[DannyHamilton]

The only thing I don't like, is how "millibitcoin" sounds when I say it out loud. It's too long and not nearly as catchy as "Bitcoin".
- snip -

Lets call the split version "millibitcoin", or we can use a slang name for it like "millies".

That still doesn't sound right to me.
- snip -

How about "millibits".  That's short.  It's rather catchy, and (at least to someone that speaks english with a Chicago accent) it rolls of the tongue nicely.

I'm open to other slang terms as well. My point is that people have been using slang terms for money for centuries.  We don't HAVE to use the formal name if we don't like how the formal name sounds when we say it out loud.

[LoyceV]

How about "millibits".  That's short.  It's rather catchy, and (at least to someone that speaks english with a Chicago accent) it rolls of the tongue nicely.

It sounds good, but "bits" is already in use for "100 Satoshis". That makes 1 millibit 0.000000001BTC. Kilobits could actually work, it has the the same as millibitcoin, but sounds better.

[DannyHamilton]

It sounds good, but "bits" is already in use for "100 Satoshis".

I've NEVER liked that and have actively ignored it, discouraged it's use, and attempted to kill it off.

I realize I'm probably fighting a losing battle here, it's difficult to unscramble the egg, but I'm still hoping that I can get enough newbies and others that aren't yet familliar with the "bits" term to start using millibits, millies, millibitcoins, etc so that the term "bits" as 100 Satoshis begins to sound awkward and wrong to a significant percentage of users someday.  At best perhaps I can hope that it will become a regional Chicagoland thing.

[leopard2]

I tell them you can buy 1/1000th or even 1/1,000,000th of a bitcoin if you really wanted to..

Exactly!

The system already had a 1000:1 split and then another 1000:1 split after that.  People just aren't aware of it yet, and they aren't familliar with the new naming convention for the split amounts.

If you want to buy 1/1000th of a bitcoin, then you are buying from the first split.  These are called millibitcoin (often written as mBTC), and a nickname is catching on: "Millies".  So, if you want 5 of the 1:1000 split coins, then you want 5 Millies!.  At an exchange rate of $16300 per BTC that works out to an exchange rate of only $16.30 per Millie!

If you want to buy the 1/1,000,000th of a bitcoin, then you are buying from the second split.  These are called microbitcoin (often written as µBTC since the scientific symbol for micro is µ), and a nickname is catching on: "Mikes".  So, if you want 5 of the 1:1,000,000 split coins, then you want 5 Mikes!.  At an exchange rate of $16300 per BTC that works out to an exchange rate of ONLY $0.0163 per Mike!  (just a bit more than a penny-and-a-half)!!!

Are you pulling my leg?!

Using millibitcoin or whatever, is not going to change anything

On CMC you must have a lot of units, but people look at the full units. What you are saying is, sell gold by counting atoms to make it look cheaper, no, this won't work if everybody else is selling copper, sand or dogcrap by the ounce.

Using mikes or millies is not a solution

The solution is splitting 21 000 000 BTC (with 1e8 satoshis divisbilty) into 21 000 000 000 BTC (with 1e8 satoshis divisibility)

Block reward would then be 12500 BTC per block, fees? Good question. Perhaps such a split could help reducing fees too.

Reducing the divisibility leads to rounding issues, fee issues, dust issues and fucking no one will fall for that anyways...people do not want to pay 16000 for 1 BTC, and they won't pay 16 for a millie because they know it is 0.001 BTC. People may be stupid, but not THAT stupid.

Mark my words, if such a split is not done, it is only a matter of time until crap like XRP is on top of CMC

And yes, I define success = ranking in CMC, just like 99.99% of earthlings  

Pretty sure, just announcing such a Bitcoin "stock split" would result in 25000+ prices. Even Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway has done it (B series) because they know that a share that costs several 10 000$ are not attractive to retail investors!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_split

[leopard2]

The Byteball-thread has a lot of discussion about changing the unit from GBYTE ($870) to MBYTE ($0.87). I used to think this doesn't matter, but I've come to realize it does matter. Changing the units in my own wallet doesn't change how it's listed and traded.

THIS!!!!!!

Byteball is brilliant, beats XRP in each and every way

Why is XRP number 2? Why is Byteball not over 100 000$ per GBYTE? Circulation wise it should be.

It is not, because I am right and the "mBTC" bullcrap is not working. Stellar, Cardano, Iota, Bytecoin, Doge, so many examples proving my point....