laughted at me when I said ASIC companies are manipulating you

[dogie]

LOL? All you said was block erupters and usbs are overpriced... WE KNOW.

LOL!  You dumb shit.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=222770.msg2341763#msg2341763

And did I buy them to mine? No. I mined 12 btc per blade and sold them above cost price. Fuck you and your simplistic brain, you'd evaporate in my presence.

I remember you

Then stop complaining. I had £12 in my bank account. Was bored, started my own £1M company at 13. Do something about it other than complain. In either case, why do we have to hear the QQ?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=222770.msg2343065#msg2343065

but you still beg for BTC

Paying for college: 15UhE4x7d1hD2o2YKCcdddzuhymsTKdeuz

see the deference between us, I am a man of logic... and I do not beg for money I work hard to earn it. and I want to wisely invest it 

And where does it say I'm begging, so fucking fail. It is a public address listed to be public, all my BUSINESS activity is paying for college. Not everyone has such a feeble mindset to beg.

[mmitech]

LOL? All you said was block erupters and usbs are overpriced... WE KNOW.

LOL!  You dumb shit.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=222770.msg2341763#msg2341763

And did I buy them to mine? No. I mined 12 btc per blade and sold them above cost price. Fuck you and your simplistic brain, you'd evaporate in my presence.

I remember you

Then stop complaining. I had £12 in my bank account. Was bored, started my own £1M company at 13. Do something about it other than complain. In either case, why do we have to hear the QQ?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=222770.msg2343065#msg2343065

but you still beg for BTC

Paying for college: 15UhE4x7d1hD2o2YKCcdddzuhymsTKdeuz

see the deference between us, I am a man of logic... and I do not beg for money I work hard to earn it. and I want to wisely invest it 

And where does it say I'm begging, so fucking fail. It is a public address listed to be public, all my BUSINESS activity is paying for college. Not everyone has such a feeble mindset to beg.

I have a 1M business but any way here is my address I need to pay for college, what do you call that ?

[MrHempstock]

I can't take anyone on this forum seriously if:

A) They have that many spelling/grammar errors while trying to sound intelligent, and
B) Whine and complain and take everything personally. This is the internet: no one gives two shits about your opinion.

New candidate quote for sig. 

Uh, everybody didn't "laugh" at you. You didn't say that ASIC companies were just manipulating everybody. You made very specific claims about the blades, and most people agreed with you, but tried to help you understand that this is market forces at work, not companies manipulating people:

Now you want to come back and prop yourself up as some sort of prophet, because you complained about the pricing of one specific product, and now think that you can retroactively decide that it was a prophecy about all ASIC companies?

Lol this ended the thread for me. /interest

[Kluge]

I wonder if anyone went into ASIC manufacturing/sales thinking it was a long-term investment. I mean... after the first batches, either BTC price needs to go through the roof, or the components need to be immediately available for shipping and at least 5x as powerful at the same price (or some lesser combination of the two).

Maybe mining was just a diving board for them?

[Bitcoinorama]

I wonder if anyone went into ASIC manufacturing/sales thinking it was a long-term investment. I mean... after the first batches, either BTC price needs to go through the roof, or the components need to be immediately available for shipping and at least 5x as powerful at the same price (or some lesser combination of the two).

Maybe mining was just a diving board for them?

Terrahash.

[Kluge]

I wonder if anyone went into ASIC manufacturing/sales thinking it was a long-term investment. I mean... after the first batches, either BTC price needs to go through the roof, or the components need to be immediately available for shipping and at least 5x as powerful at the same price (or some lesser combination of the two).

Maybe mining was just a diving board for them?

Terrahash.

DX lg consumes ~1.28KW w/10 modules. 180GH/s = ~$237/d profits (~$242/d rev, ~$4.61/d power cost) @ $.15/KWh and $100/BTC, IF difficulty remains constant at its current (~37M). However, we know difficulty's increasing ~40% every two weeks. So, if you ordered today and it arrives at next difficulty change in a few days and it's another 40% increase, you're looking @ ~$140/d profits (~$145/d rev, $4.61/d power cost). At the next difficulty change (when you're more likely to get a unit), ~$82/d profit (~$87/d rev, $4.61/d power cost). So multiply that by 14 for ~$1218. At next difficulty change, look for ~$44/d profit (49-4.6). *14 for ~$616. At next diff change, profit ~$25/d (29.5-4.6). *14=$350. And it keeps dwindling from there -- let's say there's another $800 total profit left in its lifetime. 1218+616+350+800=$2984 mining profit in its lifetime. $10500-$2984=bad investment. This doesn't factor in diff changes occurring in less than 14D due to the rapidly increasing hashpower on the network -- it's more like 12D at current pace instead of the targeted 14D, which just means the potential earnings will deteriorate that much faster.

With a 2-4 week lead-in assuming they have chips (I have no idea, I stayed away from ASICs), there's virtually 0% chance of recovering investment without the price of Bitcoin soaring - but if you're factoring in a price increase, you may's well just buy the coins straight.

(Or I screwed up on the maffs, or there's a more cost-efficient or power-efficient model than the first one I clicked on - very possible. This also changes a slight bit if you have free or near-free electricity, but it's still almost as certain the initial investment never pays itself off, while you're taking on quite a bit third-party risk + time & effort.)

ETA: fixed all my screw-ups, I think.

[pikeadz]

What exactly is the purpose of all this nonsense?  To prove to everyone you were right about something?  Does this give you some kind of satisfaction in your life that cannot be obtained through normal methods?  If not, is your righteousness supposed to help others in some way now?  If so, how?  And if not, I ask you again, what is the purpose of this entire thread?

[qnosh]

I cant agree with you anymore !!!

Totally agree with you, did then, did now.

Pricing affects the desire to recoup NRE and have sufficient means of production, distribution, marketing and customer service as well as the standard business requirements. Beyond that it is about making a profit.

[qnosh]

That is for sure!!! it goes too far.

LOL? All you said was block erupters and usbs are overpriced... WE KNOW.

[dogie]

LOL? All you said was block erupters and usbs are overpriced... WE KNOW.

LOL!  You dumb shit.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=222770.msg2341763#msg2341763

And did I buy them to mine? No. I mined 12 btc per blade and sold them above cost price. Fuck you and your simplistic brain, you'd evaporate in my presence.

I remember you

Then stop complaining. I had £12 in my bank account. Was bored, started my own £1M company at 13. Do something about it other than complain. In either case, why do we have to hear the QQ?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=222770.msg2343065#msg2343065

but you still beg for BTC

Paying for college: 15UhE4x7d1hD2o2YKCcdddzuhymsTKdeuz

see the deference between us, I am a man of logic... and I do not beg for money I work hard to earn it. and I want to wisely invest it 

And where does it say I'm begging, so fucking fail. It is a public address listed to be public, all my BUSINESS activity is paying for college. Not everyone has such a feeble mindset to beg.

I have a 1M business but any way here is my address I need to pay for college, what do you call that ?

Do you know how much a masters in Eng and a world class MBA costs?

What exactly is the purpose of all this nonsense?  To prove to everyone you were right about something?  Does this give you some kind of satisfaction in your life that cannot be obtained through normal methods?  If not, is your righteousness supposed to help others in some way now?  If so, how?  And if not, I ask you again, what is the purpose of this entire thread?

The title sounds like he is crying. QQ.

[mmitech]

LOL? All you said was block erupters and usbs are overpriced... WE KNOW.

LOL!  You dumb shit.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=222770.msg2341763#msg2341763

And did I buy them to mine? No. I mined 12 btc per blade and sold them above cost price. Fuck you and your simplistic brain, you'd evaporate in my presence.

I remember you

Then stop complaining. I had £12 in my bank account. Was bored, started my own £1M company at 13. Do something about it other than complain. In either case, why do we have to hear the QQ?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=222770.msg2343065#msg2343065

but you still beg for BTC

Paying for college: 15UhE4x7d1hD2o2YKCcdddzuhymsTKdeuz

see the deference between us, I am a man of logic... and I do not beg for money I work hard to earn it. and I want to wisely invest it 

And where does it say I'm begging, so fucking fail. It is a public address listed to be public, all my BUSINESS activity is paying for college. Not everyone has such a feeble mindset to beg.

I have a 1M business but any way here is my address I need to pay for college, what do you call that ?

Do you know how much a masters in Eng and a world class MBA costs?

What exactly is the purpose of all this nonsense?  To prove to everyone you were right about something?  Does this give you some kind of satisfaction in your life that cannot be obtained through normal methods?  If not, is your righteousness supposed to help others in some way now?  If so, how?  And if not, I ask you again, what is the purpose of this entire thread?

The title sounds like he is crying. QQ.

you my friend are full of shit.

[mmitech]

What exactly is the purpose of all this nonsense?  To prove to everyone you were right about something?  Does this give you some kind of satisfaction in your life that cannot be obtained through normal methods?  If not, is your righteousness supposed to help others in some way now?  If so, how?  And if not, I ask you again, what is the purpose of this entire thread?

the point of this thread is I still cant believe the shit and humiliation are people willing to take just to have the chance to get in this rally, in the other hand we forget that these companies would treat us different if we valued our selves.

you put a Pre-order and your faith and money (without your pre-order they cant do shit), then they delay, lie, and treat you us shit like they are doing everyone a favor.

and when I try to talk about it about it everyone comes here and start trolling me, you are the one who has been trolled.

when you get your hardware (if you get it) you will mine with it to prepare to buy the next generation, you will never make a profit this way, because there will be always a newer tech and you will have to upgrade to it .

[dogie]

What exactly is the purpose of all this nonsense?  To prove to everyone you were right about something?  Does this give you some kind of satisfaction in your life that cannot be obtained through normal methods?  If not, is your righteousness supposed to help others in some way now?  If so, how?  And if not, I ask you again, what is the purpose of this entire thread?

the point of this thread is I still cant believe the shit and humiliation are people willing to take just to have the chance to get in this rally, in the other hand we forget that these companies would treat us different if we valued our selves.

you put a Pre-order and your faith and money (without your pre-order they cant do shit), then they delay, lie, and treat you us shit like they are doing everyone a favor.

and when I try to talk about it about it everyone comes here and start trolling me, you are the one who has been trolled.

when you get your hardware (if you get it) you will mine with it to prepare to buy the next generation, you will never make a profit this way, because there will be always a newer tech and you will have to upgrade to it .

tldr: qq why does no one on the internets care what I think boohoo

[bclcjunkie]

+1

yeah, you are completely correct mmitech. Ive been stating nearly the same thing in several IRC chats for months now.

ASIC suppliers are the only ones who are doing the real profit in the bitcoin "ASIC ERA"

They know that if price of BTC is up & diff is reasonably low comparably, people will be willing to shovel tons of money into an ASIC so the suppliers just pin a high pricetag on them, making bank on the customer.
They know that if price of BTC is down & diff is still pretty high, the demand for hardware drops significantly and therefore the suppliers will drop price accordingly but still make a decent profit off customer.

The perfect example of this for all to see in clear daylight is bitfury USA's price structure on their preorders. The AUG preorders costing 2.5x more than OCT preorders ... those ASICs still cost them the same to make no matter if AUG or OCT...so they are just ripping the fuckall off the customer and laughing at the arms race the miners are creating for themselves against diff.

This is the downside of having bitcoin-only ASIC suppliers who have no other business. They change price based on demand. So not only do you have the miners in competition w/ each other based on a fixed price for hardware no matter the diff / price (like GPU's) ... now you have the companies who supply the hardware in competition w/ all sectors of the ASIC era.

Thats why I liked GPU's... AMD didnt give a fuck about bitcoin , hence they didnt price there GPU's according to the demand in bitcoin mining. So, every miner had equal chance in GPU era. In ASIC era, it all depends on the customer whos willing to risk the most to come out on top, by giving a shit ton of money to ASIC suppliers which is an unfair advantage to hobby miners.

In the end what this really comes down too is ASIC suppliers pricing future hardware so close to possible profits, that miners wont actually make any profit because they will simply be saving up a stack of BTC w/ current hardware just to afford the next gen ASIC hardware... and this will simply keep happening over and over. Only when one decides to stop mining can they take their BTC & cashout.

I look at what my avy batch 2 makes....basically to afford any hardware at this point in time, I would have to cash out any profit my avy made & thensome for a faster hasher that will suffer the same fate.
In the end it really sucks for us miners when the suppliers will price stuff exactly in this manner.

They know what to charge to make bank off us and keep the illusion alive that we have a chance of making profit =P ... when all we are doing is saving up to buy yet again more hardware from the suppliers...generation after generation.

[Altoidnerd]

+1

yeah, you are completely correct mmitech. Ive been stating nearly the same thing in several IRC chats for months now.

ASIC suppliers are the only ones who are doing the real profit in the bitcoin "ASIC ERA"

They know that if price of BTC is up & diff is reasonably low comparably, people will be willing to shovel tons of money into an ASIC so the suppliers just pin a high pricetag on them, making bank on the customer.
They know that if price of BTC is down & diff is still pretty high, the demand for hardware drops significantly and therefore the suppliers will drop price accordingly but still make a decent profit off customer.

The perfect example of this for all to see in clear daylight is bitfury USA's price structure on their preorders. The AUG preorders costing 2.5x more than OCT preorders ... those ASICs still cost them the same to make no matter if AUG or OCT...so they are just ripping the fuckall off the customer and laughing at the arms race the miners are creating for themselves against diff.

This is the downside of having bitcoin-only ASIC suppliers who have no other business. They change price based on demand. So not only do you have the miners in competition w/ each other based on a fixed price for hardware no matter the diff / price (like GPU's) ... now you have the companies who supply the hardware in competition w/ all sectors of the ASIC era.

Thats why I liked GPU's... AMD didnt give a fuck about bitcoin , hence they didnt price there GPU's according to the demand in bitcoin mining. So, every miner had equal chance in GPU era. In ASIC era, it all depends on the customer whos willing to risk the most to come out on top, by giving a shit ton of money to ASIC suppliers which is an unfair advantage to hobby miners.

In the end what this really comes down too is ASIC suppliers pricing future hardware so close to possible profits, that miners wont actually make any profit because they will simply be saving up a stack of BTC w/ current hardware just to afford the next gen ASIC hardware... and this will simply keep happening over and over. Only when one decides to stop mining can they take their BTC & cashout.

I look at what my avy batch 2 makes....basically to afford any hardware at this point in time, I would have to cash out any profit my avy made & thensome for a faster hasher that will suffer the same fate.
In the end it really sucks for us miners when the suppliers will price stuff exactly in this manner.

They know what to charge to make bank off us and keep the illusion alive that we have a chance of making profit =P ... when all we are doing is saving up to buy yet again more hardware from the suppliers...generation after generation.

+1 for the most part.  But I have to say when I think of the economics of how a company can possibly sell a money printing device, I become unsure of any convictions I momentarily have.

It's quite clear the ASIC manufacturers price their devices according to the real market price...the price people will pay, and not at all based on the unit cost.  And they drop their prices according to the ship date.

Further complicating this is that the price of their product drops as they sell more of their product.  Also that they could not possibly sell the product for too little at a given time because...why not just mine in that case?  

Anyway it would be short sighted to accept any analysis without considering all of the little feedback systems involved in this type of economy, which is unlike anything I know of or have thought about before.  It's easy to say the ASIC manufacturers are big and bad for pricing how they do...but I'm not sure its possible for the companies to do things any other way.

[Paladin69]

Really sucks how we've gone through most of 2013 and most people still don't have ASIC aside from ASICMiner's overpriced USB sticks.  A few centralized hands have been grabbing up most of the BTC this year.  Sad.

[alexuk]

o the love in this thread.

[reactor]

o the love in this thread.

BitCoin is a cryptocurrency designed around people getting fleeced for hardware and bitching on forums.

Seriously, people take stuff way too personally on forums and need to grow up.  I had an issue with someone, I partially tarnished the name of one of my business partners (since he receives all our hardware), I resolved the issue privately and removed my overreactions from the forum.  If the height of BTC today is threads like this we're all fucked.

[Turbor]

P4man said 2 years ago that no one except the vendors and some early adopters would make a profit out of ASIC.

[reactor]

P4man said 2 years ago that no one except the vendors and some early adopters would make a profit out of ASIC.

Yet people are still placing orders for the old AM blades that are pretty much guaranteed to not pay for themselves.  What a racket.