laughted at me when I said ASIC companies are manipulating you

[GenTarkin]

Next up will be the government or governments coming into these mining corps, demanding or bribing them into ownership and next thing we know.... we got the government once again controlling the financial sector from within =P

That would be hilarious & sad at the same fucking time. We know the true colors of said government...but when the above happens, we realize the true colors of the mining corps.
Like we already dont =P but just shows how fucking evil they are. They dont care about crypto-currency, they just wanna make a shit ton of money & they wouldnt care to sell out of the offering was good enough. Fucking pisses me off, this is why I want mining to remain in garages for hobbyists. Its much more difficult for the government to convince hundreds of thousands of garage miners to sell out then it is for a single mining corp that holds tons of hashrate.

Truth of the matter is, centralized mining is just bad on all fronts for a "decentralized currency" .. unfortunately its inevitable =(
And whos to fucking blame? once again... the ASIC suppliers and their insane price gouging tactics.

I think mining will mostly become distributed because of electricity and heat concerns, ASICminer's operation can not scale just because of these

A future with multiple mining companies each have their nuclear power plant in antarctica... how to prevent bitcoin from causing global warming??  

Lol, but seriously Bitcoin still uses the tiniest amount of power in relation to fiat and payment processing with all the intermediaries concerned. But I want to see more renewables being used to power Bitcoin!

I was gonna say the same thing. When you think about the fiat infrastructure combined...uses a shit ton more power than bitcoin will for quite some time. I love throwing this point back in peoples faces who are like "yeah but bitcoin is such a waste of power...."

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I was gonna say the same thing. When you think about the fiat infrastructure combined...uses a shit ton more power than bitcoin will for quite some time. I love throwing this point back in peoples faces who are like "yeah but bitcoin is such a waste of power...."

What are you talking about?  Per-dollar value, or the entire world's fiat economy?  Nonsense.

[GenTarkin]

Im talking about the electricity needed to keep the banks running. The Logistical infrastructure behind fiat uses way more power. Hell I bet ATM's alone use more power than miners do on a global scale.

[Bitcoinorama]

Im talking about the electricity needed to keep the banks running. The Logistical infrastructure behind fiat uses way more power. Hell I bet ATM's alone use more power than miners do on a global scale.

Jeez, if course they do! And then some!! London's ATMs probably consume more than the entire global Bitcoin mining community, without the payment processing involved!

[crumbs]

Im talking about the electricity needed to keep the banks running. The Logistical infrastructure behind fiat uses way more power. Hell I bet ATM's alone use more power than miners do on a global scale.

All the banks in the world?!  Or per-person?  Please, post some data to back up what you say.

[GenTarkin]

Im talking about the electricity needed to keep the banks running. The Logistical infrastructure behind fiat uses way more power. Hell I bet ATM's alone use more power than miners do on a global scale.

Jeez, if course they do! And then some!! London's ATMs probably consume more than the entire global Bitcoin mining community, without the payment processing involved!

LOL, that was my point =) ... and why the argument  "bitcoin - its just wasting power" ...is a stupid one.
Its like the same argument "well bitcoin is just fake money" .... "um...what do you think fiat is?" lol

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Im talking about the electricity needed to keep the banks running. The Logistical infrastructure behind fiat uses way more power. Hell I bet ATM's alone use more power than miners do on a global scale.

Jeez, if course they do! And then some!! London's ATMs probably consume more than the entire global Bitcoin mining community, without the payment processing involved!

They also *serve* the entire world, while i can't even buy gas with bitcoins.

[miter_myles]

P4man said 2 years ago that no one except the vendors and some early adopters would make a profit out of ASIC.

Yet people are still placing orders for the old AM blades that are pretty much guaranteed to not pay for themselves.  What a racket.

I think ASICMINER is at least helping (slowly) put people in check with what they are selling their gear for..  people wanting gold bars for BFL equipment on hand is nuts..

keep prices in check?! your kidding right. They are the ones selling hardware way overpriced as well, just so they can easily keep adding to their network hashrate. Its the perfect model and unfortunate. Have people fund your operation up front, hold a huge portion of the network hashrate then keep the illusion of hope for miners by releasing overpriced hardware to them... just to keep funding their own operation in keeping 1/3rd the network hashrate. Its like saying "yeah Ill pay you to ensure that I will never make ROI... take my money!" Wish people would wake up and stop fueling the giant.

Yes, concur.. but I was stating this referencing all the classifieds on this forum where people are asking absurd prices for their finally shipped in hand BFL gear.. am seeing more and more comments/replies from others in their threads relating their asking price to the current costs of AM gear..

[johnyj]

This could be the ultimate reason that bitcoin will not totally replace fiat money, if it reaches several trillions in market value, it means equal amount of dollars worth of electricity will be put into bitcoin mining, this will generate lots of heat, a very big environment problem

It seems that we need some miner which does not generate huge amount of heat

[crumbs]

Im talking about the electricity needed to keep the banks running. The Logistical infrastructure behind fiat uses way more power. Hell I bet ATM's alone use more power than miners do on a global scale.

Jeez, if course they do! And then some!! London's ATMs probably consume more than the entire global Bitcoin mining community, without the payment processing involved!

LOL, that was my point =) ... and why the argument  "bitcoin - its just wasting power" ...is a stupid one.
Its like the same argument "well bitcoin is just fake money" .... "um...what do you think fiat is?" lol

Fiat requires no energy.  It's called paper money.  Try that with bitcoin & see how far you get.
The energy currently used up by bitcoin on infrastructure supports a wholly useless infrastructure -- try shopping with BTC IRL.

[Bitcoinorama]

Im talking about the electricity needed to keep the banks running. The Logistical infrastructure behind fiat uses way more power. Hell I bet ATM's alone use more power than miners do on a global scale.

Jeez, if course they do! And then some!! London's ATMs probably consume more than the entire global Bitcoin mining community, without the payment processing involved!

LOL, that was my point =) ... and why the argument  "bitcoin - its just wasting power" ...is a stupid one.
Its like the same argument "well bitcoin is just fake money" .... "um...what do you think fiat is?" lol

Fiat requires no energy.  It's called paper money.  Try that with bitcoin & see how far you get.
The energy currently used up by bitcoin on infrastructure supports a wholly useless infrastructure -- try shopping with BTC IRL.

C'mon dude 99.9% of fiat doesn't even exist as paper, it exists as contracts and derivatives...

[crumbs]

Im talking about the electricity needed to keep the banks running. The Logistical infrastructure behind fiat uses way more power. Hell I bet ATM's alone use more power than miners do on a global scale.

Jeez, if course they do! And then some!! London's ATMs probably consume more than the entire global Bitcoin mining community, without the payment processing involved!

LOL, that was my point =) ... and why the argument  "bitcoin - its just wasting power" ...is a stupid one.
Its like the same argument "well bitcoin is just fake money" .... "um...what do you think fiat is?" lol

Fiat requires no energy.  It's called paper money.  Try that with bitcoin & see how far you get.
The energy currently used up by bitcoin on infrastructure supports a wholly useless infrastructure -- try shopping with BTC IRL.

C'mon dude 99.9% of fiat doesn't even exist as paper, it exists as contracts and derivatives...

The point is, you *can* use fiat without energy. 
Or a smartphone. 
Or a computer. 
Try doing that with BTC.  Even if you find a place that accepts it.

[GenTarkin]

Im talking about the electricity needed to keep the banks running. The Logistical infrastructure behind fiat uses way more power. Hell I bet ATM's alone use more power than miners do on a global scale.

All the banks in the world?!  Or per-person?  Please, post some data to back up what you say.

I dont get what you're so caught up on....

As per wiki, theres roughly 2.2million ATM's worldwide, given they use close to 230watts a piece(as per data on an ATM provided on suppliers website) thats about 500million watts.

If all bitcoin hashrate(350Thash) were avalons @ 83gh (750watts) .. the end result is around 3million watts.

[GenTarkin]

Im talking about the electricity needed to keep the banks running. The Logistical infrastructure behind fiat uses way more power. Hell I bet ATM's alone use more power than miners do on a global scale.

Jeez, if course they do! And then some!! London's ATMs probably consume more than the entire global Bitcoin mining community, without the payment processing involved!

LOL, that was my point =) ... and why the argument  "bitcoin - its just wasting power" ...is a stupid one.
Its like the same argument "well bitcoin is just fake money" .... "um...what do you think fiat is?" lol

Fiat requires no energy.  It's called paper money.  Try that with bitcoin & see how far you get.
The energy currently used up by bitcoin on infrastructure supports a wholly useless infrastructure -- try shopping with BTC IRL.

How do you think paper money is made - it takes energy....
Really when you think about it, any form of "money" requires some form of "energy" to exist & be used.

[crumbs]

Im talking about the electricity needed to keep the banks running. The Logistical infrastructure behind fiat uses way more power. Hell I bet ATM's alone use more power than miners do on a global scale.

All the banks in the world?!  Or per-person?  Please, post some data to back up what you say.

I dont get what you're so caught up on....

As per wiki, theres roughly 2.2million ATM's worldwide, given they use close to 230watts a piece(as per data on an ATM provided on suppliers website) thats about 500million watts.

If all bitcoin hashrate(350Thash) were avalons @ 83gh (750watts) .. the end result is around 3million watts.

The tiny factor that you're overlooking is that 99 percent of the world has never heard of BTC, and the remaining 99.9% of the remaining 1% don't ever use BTC.  And, of course, that remaining measly spec that does use BTC?  Well, they use ATMs too.
That's what i'm caught up on.

[johnyj]

Fiat requires no energy.  It's called paper money.  Try that with bitcoin & see how far you get.
The energy currently used up by bitcoin on infrastructure supports a wholly useless infrastructure -- try shopping with BTC IRL.

Fiat indeed requires almost zero energy to create, but that's the reason it should worth nothing

Actually the cost for fiat money's transaction network is huge, but I don't think that will be close to all the face value of fiat money that were created

This is actually a very good question, who is paying all those ATMs' cost? Money printer himself?

[crumbs]

Im talking about the electricity needed to keep the banks running. The Logistical infrastructure behind fiat uses way more power. Hell I bet ATM's alone use more power than miners do on a global scale.

Jeez, if course they do! And then some!! London's ATMs probably consume more than the entire global Bitcoin mining community, without the payment processing involved!

LOL, that was my point =) ... and why the argument  "bitcoin - its just wasting power" ...is a stupid one.
Its like the same argument "well bitcoin is just fake money" .... "um...what do you think fiat is?" lol

Fiat requires no energy.  It's called paper money.  Try that with bitcoin & see how far you get.
The energy currently used up by bitcoin on infrastructure supports a wholly useless infrastructure -- try shopping with BTC IRL.

How do you think paper money is made - it takes energy....
Really when you think about it, any form of "money" requires some form of "energy" to exist & be used.

Yes, i'll grant you that, paper money takes a miniscule amount of energy to print, but once that's done, other than reaching into my wallet, no energy is used for transactions at the physical note level.  Not the case with BTC.  Now you're just being stubborn.

[Bitcoinorama]

Im talking about the electricity needed to keep the banks running. The Logistical infrastructure behind fiat uses way more power. Hell I bet ATM's alone use more power than miners do on a global scale.

All the banks in the world?!  Or per-person?  Please, post some data to back up what you say.

I dont get what you're so caught up on....

As per wiki, theres roughly 2.2million ATM's worldwide, given they use close to 230watts a piece(as per data on an ATM provided on suppliers website) thats about 500million watts.

If all bitcoin hashrate(350Thash) were avalons @ 83gh (750watts) .. the end result is around 3million watts.

The tiny factor that you're overlooking is that 99 percent of the world has never heard of BTC, and the remaining 99.9% of the remaining 1% don't ever use BTC.  And, of course, that remaining measly spec that does use BTC?  Well, they use ATMs too.
That's what i'm caught up on.

Well go fourth and spread the word. There's more money to be made doing that them mining. Seriously.

It just takes effort, but peeps want to sit back and get rich quick.

[GenTarkin]

Your counter arguments for how many people use fiat vs bitcoin...kinda is besides the point. We all know that already. Also, I think it would put it into more accurate perspective for you if you thought of it like this:
NOT how much of the world IS using bitcoin

but rather,

HOW accessible is bitcoin to everyone worldwide, therefore how useful CAN it BECOME worldwide.

The answer to that is, way beyond the usefulness of multiple, fragmented, corrupt, fiat systems.

So, when looking at it that way, the power in use behind bitcoins infrastructure is way more effecient & useful than the horrible fiat financial systems of today.

People just dont realize it .... YET....

[crumbs]

Fiat requires no energy.  It's called paper money.  Try that with bitcoin & see how far you get.
The energy currently used up by bitcoin on infrastructure supports a wholly useless infrastructure -- try shopping with BTC IRL.

Fiat indeed requires almost zero energy to create, but that's the reason it should worth nothing

So you think bitcoins are valuated by the energy wasted on hashing?  Would their value go up if i figure out a *less* efficient way of hashing?

Actually the cost for fiat money's transaction network is huge, but I don't think that will be close to all the face value of fiat money that were created

This is actually a very good question, who is paying all those ATMs' cost? Money printer himself?
[/quote]

You are paying the ATM costs.