Secured payments, consumer protection and buyer recourse...

[Bitcoinorama]

Interesting...

So I can only make a 5GBP payment to KNCminer using my credit card and the rest with the debit card and still be protected for the full amount.
However because you can't pay via PayPal directly without having an account that might invalidate the protection, because you have to login into your PP account and pay that way

I wonder if KNCminer would be happy to get a small CC payment and the rest via a debit card.

Yes you can, Paypal just acts as a payment processor for those without accounts. At least that's what Paypal told me.

You still have to pay the balance of your card off. It's not free money!

[CYPER]

Yes you can, Paypal just acts as a payment processor for those without accounts. At least that's what Paypal told me.

But I don't think you can pay without having a PP account - that's the problem.
I ask KNC and they confirmed it:

My question: Does your PayPal account allow direct card payments, without opening an account of my own?
Their answer: You have to have a PayPal account to pay with card over PayPal.

You still have to pay the balance of your card off. It's not free money!

I'm perfectly aware of this 
I have the money, I just want to get myself better protection

[Bitcoinorama]

Yes you can, Paypal just acts as a payment processor for those without accounts. At least that's what Paypal told me.

But I don't think you can pay without having a PP account - that's the problem.
I ask KNC and they confirmed it:

My question: Does your PayPal account allow direct card payments, without opening an account of my own?
Their answer: You have to have a PayPal account to pay with card over PayPal.

You still have to pay the balance of your card off. It's not free money!

I'm perfectly aware of this 
I have the money, I just want to get myself better protection

Not the impression I got from Paypal, but I know KnC had to deal with a very specific agreement and terms after BFL, so perhaps in this case you may need an account. By verifying you in this case may deter and prevent scams on KnC and Paypal.

[CYPER]

Yes you can, Paypal just acts as a payment processor for those without accounts. At least that's what Paypal told me.

But I don't think you can pay without having a PP account - that's the problem.
I ask KNC and they confirmed it:

My question: Does your PayPal account allow direct card payments, without opening an account of my own?
Their answer: You have to have a PayPal account to pay with card over PayPal.

You still have to pay the balance of your card off. It's not free money!

I'm perfectly aware of this 
I have the money, I just want to get myself better protection

Not the impression I got from Paypal, but I know KnC had to deal with a very specific agreement and terms after BFL, so perhaps in this case you may need an account. By verifying you in this case may deter and prevent scams on KnC and Paypal.

I have a Premier Verified PP account, but according to THIS article I might be covered under Section 75 if I pay though it.

[Bitcoinorama]

Yes you can, Paypal just acts as a payment processor for those without accounts. At least that's what Paypal told me.

But I don't think you can pay without having a PP account - that's the problem.
I ask KNC and they confirmed it:

My question: Does your PayPal account allow direct card payments, without opening an account of my own?
Their answer: You have to have a PayPal account to pay with card over PayPal.

You still have to pay the balance of your card off. It's not free money!

I'm perfectly aware of this 
I have the money, I just want to get myself better protection

Not the impression I got from Paypal, but I know KnC had to deal with a very specific agreement and terms after BFL, so perhaps in this case you may need an account. By verifying you in this case may deter and prevent scams on KnC and Paypal.

I have a Premier Verified PP account, but according to THIS article I might be covered under Section 75 if I pay though it.

Yes, that's what I've been saying. Ring your card issuer and check their stance w.r.t. third party payment processors and protection.

[regular]

People who disagree are likely ones that have barely any skin in the game or are whale enough to get special contacts with the manufacturer.  The internet is an untrustworthy place.  Nobody here is immune - we've seen all kinds of high level "hero" or "vip" members disappear with member's BTC.  People also say do your own research.  With the Hashfast example, short of listening to shill from Cypherdoc, no body with a life is going to fly over there.  Besides, BFL has a physical location where people dropped in many times and what has that got its customers?

The truth is, ASIC manufacturer's bills are in fiat.  None of them pay their suppliers BTC so any argument trying to promote its use is more for their own interest if they have to run.  If they are legitimate, they should decrease the exchange risk for the customer and sell for profit in fiat via CC as well.  Nobody is saying they shouldn't take BTC either, but offer CC as an option as your own damn fiat costs are pretty clear and fixed.

[CYPER]

Yes, that's what I've been saying. Ring your card issuer and check their stance w.r.t. third party payment processors and protection.

I just spoke with my bank, specifically asking if I'm covered under section 75 if the payment is made though PayPal* and they said yes.

* - I explicitly stated the 2 cases where you can either pay directly without logging in or sort of indirectly where you log in, then PP charges your card and probably PP pays the merchant out of its own money (at least that how I think it works).

Also even if I pay just 5 pounds deposit and the rest on the debit card I am still covered for the full amount.

[Bitcoinorama]

Yes, that's what I've been saying. Ring your card issuer and check their stance w.r.t. third party payment processors and protection.

I just spoke with my bank, specifically asking if I'm covered under section 75 if the payment is made though PayPal* and they said yes.

* - I explicitly stated the 2 cases where you can either pay directly without logging in or sort of indirectly where you log in, then PP charges your card and probably PP pays the merchant out of its own money (at least that how I think it works).

Also even if I pay just 5 pounds deposit and the rest on the debit card I am still covered for the full amount.

I don't want to say I told you so, but...



Note: See there is absolutely NO reason for pre-orders without card payment as an option.

They just want to use your BTC as a free ride, with minimal accountability!!

[CYPER]

Yes, that's what I've been saying. Ring your card issuer and check their stance w.r.t. third party payment processors and protection.

I just spoke with my bank, specifically asking if I'm covered under section 75 if the payment is made though PayPal* and they said yes.

* - I explicitly stated the 2 cases where you can either pay directly without logging in or sort of indirectly where you log in, then PP charges your card and probably PP pays the merchant out of its own money (at least that how I think it works).

Also even if I pay just 5 pounds deposit and the rest on the debit card I am still covered for the full amount.

I don't want to say I told you so, but...



Note: See there is absolutely NO reason for pre-orders without card payment as an option.

They just want to use your BTC as a free ride, with minimal accountability!!

Well I haven't touched the whole B2B or B2C uncertainty, so you never know, but at least I will feel more secure that way.

Next thing: call KNC tomorrow and ask them if it is possible to pay part of the order with a credit card and the rest with a debit card.

[Bitcoinorama]

Well I haven't touched the whole B2B or B2C uncertainty, so you never know, but at least I will feel more secure that way.

Next thing: call KNC tomorrow and ask them if it is possible to pay part of the order with a credit card and the rest with a debit card.

Read of their T&Cs according to UK Government's Citizens Advice Beaureau they would have to have written exclusion clauses to negate any aspects of consumer protection.

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/consumer_problems_with_business_to_business_services_e/consumer_protection_for_businesses.htm

[MiningBuddy]

I think this is all bad advice and the complete opposite of how the Bitcoin community should handle this situation. We cannot claim to want to eliminate the various bureaucracies and have a free-market and then turn around to run to them when things go wrong. We need to establish some market alternatives which address these issues.

Yes.  Escrow.  Full stop.

This is good advice for current times, unfortunately we don't have a btc escrow type of system in place to currently protect us so until something does come along we just have to make the best with what we have. 

[loufiethecat]

Great advice that we will be utilizing from now on always.

Triple B Mining, a mining bond on LTC GLOBAL has had its BTC for a batch#3 Avalon stolen through non-delivery and refusal to acknowledge the order or give a refund to the amount which has clearly been paid via the blockchain. I'm still holding out for Yifu to make good on this unit but I don't think it'll happen...

So where does the third party payment processors (i.e. Bitpay, walletbit etc etc) sit in this game of stabby stabby run run? Do they hold any accountability? Is there any recourse through them? Did they not help facilitate the fraud?

Very sad to see so much greed over something that is meant to free us from Fiat money grubbing... so sad and so shameful... Humans can be utterly disgusting at times, especially to each other. BTC is meant to help the planet and change lives ... not destroy business's and ruin people and their families, that's the fiat game.

Feeling very human and very stupid and very sick over this.

Loufie

Triple B Mining

[driksson]

Can peeps help advise w.r.t. US law? How is that affected state to state? I will update above with any succinct relevant material as and when it's shared below. Thanks!

Take note, swedish regulations differ B2C And B2B rights. If we as clients purchase a complete miner, its b2c. But if we only buy chips, its B2B company to company have different set of rules.
KonsumentVerket = The consumer Agency. Which only regulates the end client.

However if you have paid by card within the UK (and EU) at least;

Business to business sales, are consumer rights applicable?!

In short, yes, unless the company you are dealing with has specifically underwritten terms in their Terms and Conditions negating aspects of your consumer rights. This is known as an exclusion clause, and is yet another reason why Terms and Conditions should always be read and thoroughly discussed in your respective thread.

How do you know if the contract (business to business) takes away your statutory rights?

If the person who sold you the goods or services has taken away your statutory rights, there should be something in your contract about this. For example, it might say  the seller isn't responsible for goods that are unsatisfactory, don't match their description or aren't fit for purpose. Or it might say that the seller isn't responsible for any loss you've suffered because of their lack of care or skill. This type of content in a contract is called an exclusion clause.

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/consumer_problems_with_business_to_business_services_e/consumer_protection_for_businesses.htm

This could be, but sweden has its own protection for the swedish consumers, to protect them. And it mostly only covers b2c inside sweden from what i know.

From UK's http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/consumer_problems_with_business_to_business_services_e/consumer_protection_for_businesses.htm

If you're running a business, you may make contracts with other businesses to buy their goods or services. But as a business, you may not have the same rights and protection as an ordinary consumer.

Your rights will depend almost completely on what's in your contract.

So, in short, NO, a business does NOT have the same rights as a consumer. Don't go assuming this, AT ALL. Read the fine print, that's where the "interesting" stuff is hidden.

International sales between businesses are even worse (think lawsuit in a foreign country, as the applicable law is usually the one of the seller). Consumer sales within the EU are regulated though, so, if you want maximum protection, you need to buy as a consumer, not a business.

KS either you haven't read what I wrote, or you are repeating it.

It comes down to whether, or what 'exclusion clauses' exist in a vendor's T&C's that may affect your statutory consumer rights, otherwise they exist in the same capacity (in the UK).

but if its Sweden and you buy as a consumer, they can't exclude you of any rights.. so for sure, kncminer could be beneficial to buy as private person.

[KS]

but if its Sweden and you buy as a consumer, they can't exclude you of any rights.. so for sure, kncminer could be beneficial to buy as private person.

Only their T&C states that you are buying as a business. You have to agree to these T&C if you want to purchase from them, so you are effectively buying as a business. If you're not a business, it's misrepresentation on your part. No fault of theirs.

[ProfMac]

I have an Avalon.  I think that 1,500 orders have been received through their web site.

With that many cutting edge gadgets, there are failures in the field.  I have repaired 1 Avalon for a customer, and there are reports of other failures resulting from various owner actions.

I think it would make sense to have Avalon bitcoin insurance.  Insurance is a regulated business, and my sense is that the regulations protect existing companies at least as much as they protect the purchasers of insurance.  That is, the insurance companies would be quick to produce unwelcome paperwork for anyone who set up insurance without all the i's dotted and t's crossed.

Nonetheless, someone should pursue this.

[CYPER]

I went to Metro bank branch today and got my shiny new CC, which has zero commision on foreign purchases and the good news is that according to Section 75 if you deposit extra money on top of your credit limit and you make a purchase then that deposit is covered on equal basis as the money from the bank.
Basically if you have 100GBP CC limit and deposit 5900GBP on top, then if you make a purchase for 6000GBP and the retailer goes bust, then you have an equal claim against the bank for the full 6000GBP

So in terms of protection I think that is the best way to purchase from UK

[Bitcoinorama]

Bitcoinorama, do you know if money deposited on top of my CC limit are protected under Section 75?
For example if my CC limit is 3000GBP I can make a deposit of 2000GBP to my CC account and thus my available balance will be 5000GBP.

If I make a purchase for 5000GBP then for what amount is the bank liable?

You asked me this the other day, and I answered you in this thread, it looks like they protect any funds in which the credit card had been the vehicle for payment, but don't be lazy and ask on a forum. Ring your bank and let everyone know here.

[CYPER]

Bitcoinorama, do you know if money deposited on top of my CC limit are protected under Section 75?
For example if my CC limit is 3000GBP I can make a deposit of 2000GBP to my CC account and thus my available balance will be 5000GBP.

If I make a purchase for 5000GBP then for what amount is the bank liable?

You asked me this the other day, and I answered you in this thread, it looks like they protect any funds in which the credit card had been the vehicle for payment, but don't be lazy and ask on a forum. Ring your bank and let everyone know here.

Your answer was about the case, where you pay a small deposit on the CC and the rest from a debit card, which is a different case and on top of all it would not work with the way KNCMiner website works.

[Bitcoinorama]

Bitcoinorama, do you know if money deposited on top of my CC limit are protected under Section 75?
For example if my CC limit is 3000GBP I can make a deposit of 2000GBP to my CC account and thus my available balance will be 5000GBP.

If I make a purchase for 5000GBP then for what amount is the bank liable?

You asked me this the other day, and I answered you in this thread, it looks like they protect any funds in which the credit card had been the vehicle for payment, but don't be lazy and ask on a forum. Ring your bank and let everyone know here.

Your answer was about the case, where you pay a small deposit on the CC and the rest from a debit card, which is a different case and on top of all it would not work with the way KNCMiner website works.

I realise that. I'm not a card issuer, but I did attach Section 75 in it's entirety. You can take a look. I believe as I said, it comes into play by using the credit card as a vehicle of payment our respective of whether you load it up with some cash amount prior, or not. Call your card issuer and ask. Read Section 75.

You could always ask KnC to split payments. They might, ask.

[CYPER]

Bitcoinorama, do you know if money deposited on top of my CC limit are protected under Section 75?
For example if my CC limit is 3000GBP I can make a deposit of 2000GBP to my CC account and thus my available balance will be 5000GBP.

If I make a purchase for 5000GBP then for what amount is the bank liable?

You asked me this the other day, and I answered you in this thread, it looks like they protect any funds in which the credit card had been the vehicle for payment, but don't be lazy and ask on a forum. Ring your bank and let everyone know here.

Your answer was about the case, where you pay a small deposit on the CC and the rest from a debit card, which is a different case and on top of all it would not work with the way KNCMiner website works.

I realise that. I'm not a card issuer, but I did attach Section 75 in it's entirety. You can take a look. I believe as I said, it comes into play by using the credit card as a vehicle of payment our respective of whether you load it up with some cash amount prior, or not. Call your card issuer and ask. Read Section 75.

You could always ask KnC to split payments. They might, ask.

Did you actually read my post HERE?