Secured payments, consumer protection and buyer recourse...

[Bitcoinorama]

Bitcoinorama, do you know if money deposited on top of my CC limit are protected under Section 75?
For example if my CC limit is 3000GBP I can make a deposit of 2000GBP to my CC account and thus my available balance will be 5000GBP.

If I make a purchase for 5000GBP then for what amount is the bank liable?

You asked me this the other day, and I answered you in this thread, it looks like they protect any funds in which the credit card had been the vehicle for payment, but don't be lazy and ask on a forum. Ring your bank and let everyone know here.

Your answer was about the case, where you pay a small deposit on the CC and the rest from a debit card, which is a different case and on top of all it would not work with the way KNCMiner website works.

I realise that. I'm not a card issuer, but I did attach Section 75 in it's entirety. You can take a look. I believe as I said, it comes into play by using the credit card as a vehicle of payment our respective of whether you load it up with some cash amount prior, or not. Call your card issuer and ask. Read Section 75.

You could always ask KnC to split payments. They might, ask.

Did you actually read my post HERE?

Yes. Did you read section 75?

Did you check with KnC whether they take a part payment?

If they take a part payment you can pay by cc and debit card to satisfy the Section 75 that way.

Section 75 applies to credit cards only, and thus it protects payments for those payments made using a credit card as the vehicle of payment.

You should check with you card issuer about what occurs of you add balance to your card. I'm not going to pick S75 apart for you when it's here and available for you to make your own mind up. It appears that Metrobank will assume equal liability by your prior statement. Call them and make sure you explain specifically what this if for, where it is being purchased from and the timescale to delivery, explain how you wish to add funds and can they confirm that they will cover beyond the credited amount to include the positive balance as well. I believe it is as you are using the card to make the purchase. Check again with your bank.

[CYPER]

Yes. Did you read section 75?

Did you check with KnC whether they take a part payment?

If they take a part payment you can pay by cc and debit card to satisfy the Section 75 that way.

Section 75 applies to credit cards only, and thus it protects payments for those payments made using a credit card as the vehicle of payment.

You should check with you card issuer about what occurs of you add balance to your card. I'm not going to pick S75 apart for you when it's here and available for you to make your own mind up. It appears that Metrobank will assume equal liability by your prior statement. Call them and make sure you explain specifically what this if for, where it is being purchased from and the timescale to delivery, explain how you wish to add funds and can they confirm that they will cover beyond the credited amount to include the positive balance as well. I believe it is as you are using the card to make the purchase. Check again with your bank.

I'm confused. My post, that I pointed to stated that I already did that and you keep telling me to do it.
I was in the bank today and the bank manager confirmed that whatever money are on the credit card they are all covered.

[Bitcoinorama]

Yes. Did you read section 75?

Did you check with KnC whether they take a part payment?

If they take a part payment you can pay by cc and debit card to satisfy the Section 75 that way.

Section 75 applies to credit cards only, and thus it protects payments for those payments made using a credit card as the vehicle of payment.

You should check with you card issuer about what occurs of you add balance to your card. I'm not going to pick S75 apart for you when it's here and available for you to make your own mind up. It appears that Metrobank will assume equal liability by your prior statement. Call them and make sure you explain specifically what this if for, where it is being purchased from and the timescale to delivery, explain how you wish to add funds and can they confirm that they will cover beyond the credited amount to include the positive balance as well. I believe it is as you are using the card to make the purchase. Check again with your bank.

I'm confused. My post, that I pointed to stated that I already did that and you keep telling me to do it.
I was in the bank today and the bank manager confirmed that whatever money are on the credit card they are all covered.

So what are you asking me exactly?

[CYPER]

Yes. Did you read section 75?

Did you check with KnC whether they take a part payment?

If they take a part payment you can pay by cc and debit card to satisfy the Section 75 that way.

Section 75 applies to credit cards only, and thus it protects payments for those payments made using a credit card as the vehicle of payment.

You should check with you card issuer about what occurs of you add balance to your card. I'm not going to pick S75 apart for you when it's here and available for you to make your own mind up. It appears that Metrobank will assume equal liability by your prior statement. Call them and make sure you explain specifically what this if for, where it is being purchased from and the timescale to delivery, explain how you wish to add funds and can they confirm that they will cover beyond the credited amount to include the positive balance as well. I believe it is as you are using the card to make the purchase. Check again with your bank.

I'm confused. My post, that I pointed to stated that I already did that and you keep telling me to do it.
I was in the bank today and the bank manager confirmed that whatever money are on the credit card they are all covered.

So what are you asking me exactly?

Nothing.
My post #58 was just a statement of my findings today and your reply to it was telling me to ring my bank and ask, when I was actually in the bank and asked.
Basically you told me to do something, that I already did and said I did in the post above.

[Bitcoinorama]

Yes. Did you read section 75?

Did you check with KnC whether they take a part payment?

If they take a part payment you can pay by cc and debit card to satisfy the Section 75 that way.

Section 75 applies to credit cards only, and thus it protects payments for those payments made using a credit card as the vehicle of payment.

You should check with you card issuer about what occurs of you add balance to your card. I'm not going to pick S75 apart for you when it's here and available for you to make your own mind up. It appears that Metrobank will assume equal liability by your prior statement. Call them and make sure you explain specifically what this if for, where it is being purchased from and the timescale to delivery, explain how you wish to add funds and can they confirm that they will cover beyond the credited amount to include the positive balance as well. I believe it is as you are using the card to make the purchase. Check again with your bank.

I'm confused. My post, that I pointed to stated that I already did that and you keep telling me to do it.
I was in the bank today and the bank manager confirmed that whatever money are on the credit card they are all covered.

So what are you asking me exactly?

Nothing.
My post #58 was just a statement of my findings today and your reply to it was telling me to ring my bank and ask, when I was actually in the bank and asked.

Sorry man, been out all day, it's late, I'm tired. Glad it' good news then!

[CYPER]

Yes. Did you read section 75?

Did you check with KnC whether they take a part payment?

If they take a part payment you can pay by cc and debit card to satisfy the Section 75 that way.

Section 75 applies to credit cards only, and thus it protects payments for those payments made using a credit card as the vehicle of payment.

You should check with you card issuer about what occurs of you add balance to your card. I'm not going to pick S75 apart for you when it's here and available for you to make your own mind up. It appears that Metrobank will assume equal liability by your prior statement. Call them and make sure you explain specifically what this if for, where it is being purchased from and the timescale to delivery, explain how you wish to add funds and can they confirm that they will cover beyond the credited amount to include the positive balance as well. I believe it is as you are using the card to make the purchase. Check again with your bank.

I'm confused. My post, that I pointed to stated that I already did that and you keep telling me to do it.
I was in the bank today and the bank manager confirmed that whatever money are on the credit card they are all covered.

So what are you asking me exactly?

Nothing.
My post #58 was just a statement of my findings today and your reply to it was telling me to ring my bank and ask, when I was actually in the bank and asked.

Sorry man, been out all day, it's late, I'm tired. Glad it' good news then!

Apologies accepted. I feel much more protected now
It can't get any more secured than that.

[Big Time Coin]

Please UNSTICKY this thread!

The way I read him, Bitcoinorama is a paid shill that bashes bitcoin as a payment mechanism every chance he gets, and promotes the use of credit cards and paypal, which are inferior payment mechanisms.  The is classic sock-puppet behavior, either he wants to discourage use of bitcoin, discourage re-investment in asic mining equipment, or some other agenda, but this post and all his posts are pure opinion, no facts.  And that opinion is negative. 

He has polluted many threads except the KNCMiner thread, like Hashfast and avalon threads, with his annoying garbage posts touting the benefits of the decades-old 16 + 7 digit and string plaintext based payment technology that employs tens of thousands of paper pushers to work at all, not to mention the armies of police and investigators to try to hold it all together from rampant fraud and abuse.  I'm sick of reading about how great credit cards are on a bitcoin forum.  This guy needs to shut up.

All he does is slander our businesses and bitcoin itself - he is unworthy of a sticky.

As to visa and mastercard - did you know that they recently had to pay a $6 billion settlement - that's 6 X the market cap of bitcoin itself - for unconscionable business practices with there merchants over a several year period?  Well they did!  And the amount of money that ASIC manufacturers would get or could raise from credit card payments is far less than from bitcoin payments.  Everyone knows this if they think about it for a few minutes, so please take Bitcoinorama's comments with a huge grain of salt.

[CYPER]

Please UNSTICKY this thread!

The way I read him, Bitcoinorama is a paid shill that bashes bitcoin as a payment mechanism every chance he gets, and promotes the use of credit cards and paypal, which are inferior payment mechanisms.  The is classic sock-puppet behavior, either he wants to discourage use of bitcoin, discourage re-investment in asic mining equipment, or some other agenda, but this post and all his posts are pure opinion, no facts.  And that opinion is negative.  

He has polluted many threads except the KNCMiner thread, like Hashfast and avalon threads, with his annoying garbage posts touting the benefits of the decades-old 16 + 7 digit and string plaintext based payment technology that employs tens of thousands of paper pushers to work at all, not to mention the armies of police and investigators to try to hold it all together from rampant fraud and abuse.  I'm sick of reading about how great credit cards are on a bitcoin forum.  This guy needs to shut up.

All he does is slander our businesses and bitcoin itself - he is unworthy of a sticky.

As to visa and mastercard - did you know that they recently had to pay a $6 billion settlement - that's 6 X the market cap of bitcoin itself - for unconscionable business practices with there merchants over a several year period?  Well they did!  And the amount of money that ASIC manufacturers would get or could raise from credit card payments is far less than from bitcoin payments.  Everyone knows this if they think about it for a few minutes, so please take Bitcoinorama's comments with a huge grain of salt.

So you live in dreamland and believe that the present banking system will just die piecefully and give way to the glorious bitcoin to take over the world of payments?
Maybe in year 3265
Until then I would use my CC whenever I can

[Bitcoinorama]

Please UNSTICKY this thread!

The way I read him, Bitcoinorama is a paid shill that bashes bitcoin as a payment mechanism every chance he gets, and promotes the use of credit cards and paypal, which are inferior payment mechanisms.  The is classic sock-puppet behavior, either he wants to discourage use of bitcoin, discourage re-investment in asic mining equipment, or some other agenda, but this post and all his posts are pure opinion, no facts.  And that opinion is negative.  

He has polluted many threads except the KNCMiner thread, like Hashfast and avalon threads, with his annoying garbage posts touting the benefits of the decades-old 16 + 7 digit and string plaintext based payment technology that employs tens of thousands of paper pushers to work at all, not to mention the armies of police and investigators to try to hold it all together from rampant fraud and abuse.  I'm sick of reading about how great credit cards are on a bitcoin forum.  This guy needs to shut up.

All he does is slander our businesses and bitcoin itself - he is unworthy of a sticky.

As to visa and mastercard - did you know that they recently had to pay a $6 billion settlement - that's 6 X the market cap of bitcoin itself - for unconscionable business practices with there merchants over a several year period?  Well they did!  And the amount of money that ASIC manufacturers would get or could raise from credit card payments is far less than from bitcoin payments.  Everyone knows this if they think about it for a few minutes, so please take Bitcoinorama's comments with a huge grain of salt.

B*llocks numbnuts, I'm a total proponent of Bitcoin, but there's a lot more wannabe vendors here that would rather claim to be 'supporting the distribution of the network' by preying on your ignorance and naivety then offer you a welcome and secure deal, and I do not want to see anymore people, some too lazy or stupid to bother to research this crap get burnt. Yes, it's quite UK centric, as that' where I live. As I've stated if you've got something worthwhile to add from another location and I'll add it. And err...where have I left out the facts exactly? I've linked and quoted everything I possibly could to help. When it came to reporting back on a company I offered to ask forum members questions for them, which I did and specifically take the time to painstakingly write out the responses word for word in dialect format, for what reward? My own piece of mind and a few 0.1BTC denominations and 1x0.25BTC denomination bringing the total to just over a 1 BTC, not even the cost of one of the flights. I wrote in that manner so there was no loss in translation through subjectivity.

This thread isn't just about card payment, which is clearly the most secure form of payment for pre-ordering, which is why the travel industry relies on them. Practically everything is a pre-payment there. are you ready to book a future package holiday and pay ahead with BTC yet?  This thread is meant to explore various avenues of consumer protection, which may well be very useful to some members in light of recent events. Clearly there are opportunities for forward thinking individuals to provide BTC related solutions to this.

Most of the info is available on consumer sites like MoneySavingExpert.com, but few here have bothered to look into this before purchasing. Inform yourself before giving away your hard earned to unknowns, and get off the high horse KnC trashing BS with me, I'm done with hearing about it. I went and visited them, big deal, I wrote up a report as requested by people here. There were other members of the forum that went. One wrote up an article days earlier. Others could have shared but didn't. Of course I want to see competition, but no ones going through the stringent process of verification with issuing banks and payment processors, which takes a hell of a lot more confirmation than, "hi, I want to make an ASIC, I believe in Bitcoin, here, I have a website, I'm open for pre-orders".

If you bother to read my posting history from the beginning I first tried to convince ASICrigs.com let me visit and check them out. If you bother to read the KnC thread from the beginning, I'm the reason they agreed to take cards as I pressured them to accept a protected payment means. It's from looking into that over weeks I have research to share. I'm proactive and have justifiable trust issues with companies that have come and gone through here. I know how to cover myself against loss of funds which I don't need to lose. The recent Bitsyncom evasiveness and BFL refund debacle had me look into the fraud aspect and who to contact subsequent to being denied refund or breech of agreement to deliver as anticipated.

No third party will cover an outfit not prepared to agree to their terms, yet it's open to all western companies that choose to pursue it and wish to be held accountable for their promises. It's a damn strong step in the right direction in proving you're a legitimate outfit and not some flyby night chancers that want to risk other people's money without the consequences. I would happily welcome other ASIC vendors that permit real consumer protection against reckless behaviour. I've got no beef against Hashfast, or Cointerra, but the former is currently playing roulette with pre-order funds. How will they fulfil refunds on orders should they catastrophically miss targets? With what equity once funds are spent? Whose liability? No third party, that's for sure.

I do not slander Bitcoin, but currently it's not offering people the protection they warrant from pre-orders. Fact.
Bitpay have refunded in some instances out of goodwill, but can't afford to cover all yet. MCard and issuing banks explicitly agree to, and in some countries have no choice but have to. Amazingly some people don't know this and aren't looking for it. MCard aren't about to go bankrupt yet dude.

I think any decentralised currency is healthy, regardless of whether Bitcoin succeeds or fails, crypto is here to stay and Bitcoin has the first mover advantage and most distributed and supported network. Still doesn't mean you should pre-order with it, if you want to be safe and if unknown companies want to be seen as responsible.

And for the record, aside from Cyper above who's clearly happy he confirmed his card issuer will protect him for any payment made in the denominations he wished to purchase in, this guy started a thread having been in the other side when BFL refused to honour a refund;

If I didn't purchase on AMEX through paypal, I would be toast.

AMEX saved the day for me.


Butterfly labs implosion is now imminent as I bet their new orders are way down, so they don't have cash to keep the scam rolling.

Unless by some miracle they were smart enough to hold onto all those bitcoins they got paid and made a fortune in bitcoin speculation.

But I do not think butterfly labs and smart can ever go into the same sentence without the internet breaking.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=272585.0

If ASICminer want to charge in BTC, fine at least they have something tangible to dispatch, and are proven trustworthy w.r.t. mailing items (choice of pricing itself is debatable), same as Bitfury now. A least you're not held in limbo, crossing fingers and toes wishing for a product to exist and hoping your cash is safe for a future delivery.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Most of this is available on consumer sites like MoneySavingExpert.com, but few here have bothered to look into this before purchasing. Inform yourself before giving away your hard earned to unknowns, and get off the KnC trashing BS with me. I went and visited them, big deal, I wrote up a report as requested by people here. There were other members of the forum that went. One wrote up an article days earlier. Others could have shared but didn't. Of course I want to see competition, but no ones going through the stringent process of verification with issuing banks and payment processors, which takes a hell of a lot more confirmation than, "hi, I want to make an ASIC, I believe in Bitcoin, here, I have a website, I'm open for pre-orders".

What stringent verification?

https://stripe.com/
https://paypal.com/

You can start accepting credit card payments for just about anything overnight.  Nobody cares what you are accepting it for.  There isn't even a place to enter a business purpose of stripe's website.  All you need is a bank account to deposit the funds.

Maybe in 1980 there was extensive verification of merchants that accepted credit cards but those days are long gone.  Your make it seem like these companies are shinning a flashlight into the detailed operations of the companies and thus accepting credit cards is some seal of approval.  There is nobody stripe and PayPal don't accept unless the underlying business violates their TOS (like say gambling, or illegal drugs).  That means if selling ASICs is allowed then it is allowed and if it isn't then it isn't.

[Bitcoinorama]

Most of this is available on consumer sites like MoneySavingExpert.com, but few here have bothered to look into this before purchasing. Inform yourself before giving away your hard earned to unknowns, and get off the KnC trashing BS with me. I went and visited them, big deal, I wrote up a report as requested by people here. There were other members of the forum that went. One wrote up an article days earlier. Others could have shared but didn't. Of course I want to see competition, but no ones going through the stringent process of verification with issuing banks and payment processors, which takes a hell of a lot more confirmation than, "hi, I want to make an ASIC, I believe in Bitcoin, here, I have a website, I'm open for pre-orders".

What stringent verification?

https://stripe.com/
https://paypal.com/

You can start accepting credit card payments for just about anything overnight.  Nobody cares what you are accepting it for.  There isn't even a place to enter a business purpose of stripe's website.  All you need is a bank account to deposit the funds.

Maybe in 1980 there was extensive verification of merchants that accepted credit cards but those days are long gone.  Your make it seem like these companies are shinning a flashlight into the detailed operations of the companies and thus accepting credit cards is some seal of approval.  There is nobody stripe and PayPal don't accept unless the underlying business violates their TOS (like say gambling, or illegal drugs).  That means if selling ASICs is allowed then it is allowed and if it isn't then it isn't.

Nope. These aren't mom 'n' pop type turnovers. Not for these kind of rapid unexplained purchases cumulatively valued in the millions you cannot, and especially not when they find out they are ASIC pre-orders, they want quite a lengthy verification and a unique set of terms they demand you agree to since they experienced the 'Butterfly' effect. You get treated very differently with these volumes and payment transfers.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Most of this is available on consumer sites like MoneySavingExpert.com, but few here have bothered to look into this before purchasing. Inform yourself before giving away your hard earned to unknowns, and get off the KnC trashing BS with me. I went and visited them, big deal, I wrote up a report as requested by people here. There were other members of the forum that went. One wrote up an article days earlier. Others could have shared but didn't. Of course I want to see competition, but no ones going through the stringent process of verification with issuing banks and payment processors, which takes a hell of a lot more confirmation than, "hi, I want to make an ASIC, I believe in Bitcoin, here, I have a website, I'm open for pre-orders".

What stringent verification?

https://stripe.com/
https://paypal.com/

You can start accepting credit card payments for just about anything overnight.  Nobody cares what you are accepting it for.  There isn't even a place to enter a business purpose of stripe's website.  All you need is a bank account to deposit the funds.

Maybe in 1980 there was extensive verification of merchants that accepted credit cards but those days are long gone.  Your make it seem like these companies are shinning a flashlight into the detailed operations of the companies and thus accepting credit cards is some seal of approval.  There is nobody stripe and PayPal don't accept unless the underlying business violates their TOS (like say gambling, or illegal drugs).  That means if selling ASICs is allowed then it is allowed and if it isn't then it isn't.

Nope. These aren't mom 'n' pop type turnovers. Not for these kind of rapid unexplained purchases cumulatively valued in the millions you cannot, and especially not when they find out they are ASIC pre-orders, they want quite a lengthy verification and a unique set of terms they demand you agree to since they experienced the 'Butterfly' effect. You get treated very differently with these volumes and payment transfers.

Yeah sure.  BTW I did $5M in PayPal transactions this year.  No lengthy verification or analysis.  Only the most basic identity and account verification.  Nothing more.  The margins on credit card processing are about 0.2%, that right 0.2%.*  Even big companies like PayPal can't (or maybe don't want to) spend more than the absolute basics.  They certainly don't want to dig into the details of a company operation.  

* People forget there are a lot of slices to the 3% pie.  VISA gets a cut for using their network, the originating bank (card issuer) gets the a cut, the destination bank also gets a cut.  The payment processor just collects a small amount. 

[Bitcoinorama]

Most of this is available on consumer sites like MoneySavingExpert.com, but few here have bothered to look into this before purchasing. Inform yourself before giving away your hard earned to unknowns, and get off the KnC trashing BS with me. I went and visited them, big deal, I wrote up a report as requested by people here. There were other members of the forum that went. One wrote up an article days earlier. Others could have shared but didn't. Of course I want to see competition, but no ones going through the stringent process of verification with issuing banks and payment processors, which takes a hell of a lot more confirmation than, "hi, I want to make an ASIC, I believe in Bitcoin, here, I have a website, I'm open for pre-orders".

What stringent verification?

https://stripe.com/
https://paypal.com/

You can start accepting credit card payments for just about anything overnight.  Nobody cares what you are accepting it for.  There isn't even a place to enter a business purpose of stripe's website.  All you need is a bank account to deposit the funds.

Maybe in 1980 there was extensive verification of merchants that accepted credit cards but those days are long gone.  Your make it seem like these companies are shinning a flashlight into the detailed operations of the companies and thus accepting credit cards is some seal of approval.  There is nobody stripe and PayPal don't accept unless the underlying business violates their TOS (like say gambling, or illegal drugs).  That means if selling ASICs is allowed then it is allowed and if it isn't then it isn't.

Nope. These aren't mom 'n' pop type turnovers. Not for these kind of rapid unexplained purchases cumulatively valued in the millions you cannot, and especially not when they find out they are ASIC pre-orders, they want quite a lengthy verification and a unique set of terms they demand you agree to since they experienced the 'Butterfly' effect. You get treated very differently with these volumes and payment transfers.

Yeah sure.  BTW I did $5M in PayPal transactions this year.  No lengthy verification or analysis.  Only the most basic identity and account verification.  Nothing more.  The margins on credit card processing are about 0.2%.  That right 0.2%.  Even big companies like PayPal can't (or maybe don't want to) spend more than the absolute basics.  They certainly don't want to dig into the details of a company operation.  

Yes they do. They do very, very much now because of BFL. They are being more vigilant. You may do $5M in a year with a long iterative growth over time for them to logically trust you. Presumably for products that you have in stock?

Try opening an account, and receiving $5m in two weeks from an onslaught of random individuals globally. It kinda sets off alarm bells, thphey pick up on unusual trading volumes, and become cautious, especially when they find out it's for a product to be made months and delivered in the future outside of their standard payment protection and terms of sale. Then you're required to step up to the table and pass an extensive background check. Ask around.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Try opening an account, and receiving $5m in two weeks from an onslaught of random individuals globally. It kind sets off alarm bells, especially when they find out it's for a product to be made months in the future outside of their standard payment protection and terms of sale. Then you're required to step up to the table and pass an extensive background check. Ask around.

No they don't.  What exactly are they going to verify.  The company has an address, it has employees, it has a bank account, it has business partners.  Ok all ASIC ventures to date pass that.  It doesn't mean they are capable of delivering on time and on spec.  

You think PayPal can do a risk analysis on if company ABC can delivery a custom designed processor doing x GH/s (a very niche usage) on a y nm manufacturing process by date z, based on their funding, expertise, and suppliers? There aren't very many people in the world who can do that kind of analysis and exactly 0 of them work for PayPal.  What you think they are going to spend money and hire outside experts to provide them detailed risk analysis?  

If they think the company is high risk they will increase the hold % to hedge their bets and that is about it.  There is very little merchant side credit card fraud.  Merchants can't away with fraud without a paper trail.  I mean say you got $5M into your corporate bank account opened by a corporate officer using both EIN and his/her personal SSN along with copies of incorporation documents and personal identification.  Verified by both the bank and PayPal.  Ok now what?  Just ask for $5M in $100 bills and hop on a plane?  It isn't a very effective strategy.

I would point out that to date there has been no "fake a product and hop on a plane fraud" more "lets over promise and under deliver because we really don't have the skills to do this right".  PayPal isn't going to catch that kind of fraud/risk but then again they don't have to, merchant credit card fraud happens but it is a rounding error.  Holding the merchant under a microscope does nothing to combat the very real threat of fraudulent card usage and so called "friendly fraud".  The kind of made of analysis you are talking about is expensive.  So spend huge amounts of money doing detailed research of questionable value to fight a non-problem while $10B annually is stolen via card user fraud?  Awesome business strategy.  Please tell me PayPal hired you.


TL/DR
A company accepting credit cards mean absolutely nothing other than you can do a chargeback.  Not saying that isn't worth something but you pretending processors are some kind of paladins against corporate fraud and a company accepting credit cards means they are beyond reproach is just stupid.  Well actually it isn't stupid, just transparent given your posting history.

[Bitcoinorama]

Try opening an account, and receiving $5m in two weeks from an onslaught of random individuals globally. It kind sets off alarm bells, especially when they find out it's for a product to be made months in the future outside of their standard payment protection and terms of sale. Then you're required to step up to the table and pass an extensive background check. Ask around.

No they don't.  What exactly are they going to verify.  The company has an address, it has employees, it has a bank account, it has business partners.  Ok all ASIC ventures to date pass that.  It doesn't mean they are capable of delivering on time and on spec.  

You think PayPal can do a risk analysis on if company ABC can delivery a custom designed processor doing x GH/s (a very niche usage) on a y nm manufacturing process by date z, based on their funding, expertise, and suppliers? There aren't very many people in the world who can do that kind of analysis and exactly 0 of them work for PayPal.  What you think they are going to spend money and hire outside experts to provide them detailed risk analysis?  

If they think the company is high risk they will increase the hold % to hedge their bets and that is about it.  There is very little merchant side credit card fraud.  Merchants can't away with fraud without a paper trail.  I mean say you got $5M into your corporate bank account opened by a corporate officer using both EIN and his/her personal SSN along with copies of incorporation documents and personal identification.  Verified by both the bank and PayPal.  Ok now what?  Just ask for $5M in $100 bills and hop on a plane?  It isn't a very effective strategy.

I would point out that to date there has been no "fake a product and hop on a plane fraud" more "lets over promise and under deliver because we really don't have the skills to do this right".  PayPal isn't going to catch that kind of fraud/risk but then again they don't have to, merchant credit card fraud happens but it is a rounding error.  Holding the merchant under a microscope does nothing to combat the very real threat of fraudulent card usage and so called "friendly fraud".  The kind of made of analysis you are talking about is expensive.  So spend huge amounts of money doing detailed research of questionable value to fight a non-problem while $10B annually is stolen via card user fraud?  Awesome business strategy.  Please tell me PayPal hired you.

I know you like labour a point in the belief you are all knowing until people just give in, so my suggestion to you is call Paypal, call Stripe, speak to Sam at KnC about what happened when they blocked their account for a week after the first few days of sporadic payments for unusally large sums, specifically from Asian locations as the address format is not recognised. Ask about the terms set down due to the pre-order debacle specifically with Butterfly Labs and reselling of vapourware on eBay. It happened, they had to bend over backwards to appease, it's part of the reason they had to manage and confirm any pre-order transfers and discourage eBay resale. Paypal won't stand for it any longer. It would have been a hell of a lot easier to sack it off and just accept BTC, but they wanted the brand affiliation.

Take a look at this;

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1iyzkg/if_you_get_caught_selling_bitcoin_hardware_on/

A lot of my assumed 'loyalty' for KnC stems from the fact they went to these lengths to provide greater protection for customers. You can't fault that.

TL/DR
A company accepting credit cards mean absolutely nothing other than you can do a chargeback.  Not saying that isn't worth something but you pretending processors are some kind of paladins against corporate fraud and a company accepting credit cards means they are beyond reproach is just stupid.  Well actually it isn't stupid, just transparent given your posting history.

TL/DR basically means you start disagreements, then refuse to accept any other way of thinking but you're own, or rudely can't be arsed reading replies.

Payment processors will initiate chargebacks, the credit card's issuing bank will assume liability of the purchase if the merchant won't refund. The liability is recovered through the large APRs they charge if you do not wish to settle and cover within 56 days (in the UK). No where did I ever assume payment processors to be Paladins against corporate fraud. Consumer protection is part of the many compelling offers a card issuer lures people into applying for their financial service. If it's there, why not use it? Or do you enjoy the emotional roller coaster of gambling your hard earned on unknowns?


--
EDIT: as of the 18/08/2013 Butterfly Labs is no longer supported by Paypal, and offers no secured method of purchase;

Further to the “all sales are final” position, Butterfly Labs is no longer accepting PayPal as a method of payment; instead, only taking bitcoin or bank transfers as payment. Both of these are irreversible payment methods.

http://www.coindesk.com/butterfly-labs-monarch-miner-announcement-angers-existing-customers/

[dan99]

Try opening an account, and receiving $5m in two weeks from an onslaught of random individuals globally. It kind sets off alarm bells, especially when they find out it's for a product to be made months in the future outside of their standard payment protection and terms of sale. Then you're required to step up to the table and pass an extensive background check. Ask around.

No they don't.  What exactly are they going to verify.  The company has an address, it has employees, it has a bank account, it has business partners.  Ok all ASIC ventures to date pass that.  It doesn't mean they are capable of delivering on time and on spec.  

You think PayPal can do a risk analysis on if company ABC can delivery a custom designed processor doing x GH/s (a very niche usage) on a y nm manufacturing process by date z, based on their funding, expertise, and suppliers? There aren't very many people in the world who can do that kind of analysis and exactly 0 of them work for PayPal.  What you think they are going to spend money and hire outside experts to provide them detailed risk analysis?  

If they think the company is high risk they will increase the hold % to hedge their bets and that is about it.  There is very little merchant side credit card fraud.  Merchants can't away with fraud without a paper trail.  I mean say you got $5M into your corporate bank account opened by a corporate officer using both EIN and his/her personal SSN along with copies of incorporation documents and personal identification.  Verified by both the bank and PayPal.  Ok now what?  Just ask for $5M in $100 bills and hop on a plane?  It isn't a very effective strategy.

I would point out that to date there has been no "fake a product and hop on a plane fraud" more "lets over promise and under deliver because we really don't have the skills to do this right".  PayPal isn't going to catch that kind of fraud/risk but then again they don't have to, merchant credit card fraud happens but it is a rounding error.  Holding the merchant under a microscope does nothing to combat the very real threat of fraudulent card usage and so called "friendly fraud".  The kind of made of analysis you are talking about is expensive.  So spend huge amounts of money doing detailed research of questionable value to fight a non-problem while $10B annually is stolen via card user fraud?  Awesome business strategy.  Please tell me PayPal hired you.

I know you like labour a point in the belief you are all knowing until people just give in, so my suggestion to you is call Paypal, call Stripe, speak to Sam at KnC about what happened when they blocked their account for a week after the first few days of sporadic payments for unusally large sums, specifically from Asian locations as the address format is not recognised. Ask about the terms set down due to the pre-order debacle specifically with Butterfly Labs and reselling of vapourware on eBay. It happened, they had to bend over backwards to appease, it's part of the reason they had to manage and confirm any pre-order transfers and discourage eBay resale. Paypal won't stand for it any longer. It would have been a hell of a lot easier to sack it off and just accept BTC, but they wanted the brand affiliation.

Take a look at this;

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1iyzkg/if_you_get_caught_selling_bitcoin_hardware_on/

A lot of my assumed 'loyalty' stems from the fact they went to these lengths to provide greater protection for customers. You can't fault that.

TL/DR
A company accepting credit cards mean absolutely nothing other than you can do a chargeback.  Not saying that isn't worth something but you pretending processors are some kind of paladins against corporate fraud and a company accepting credit cards means they are beyond reproach is just stupid.  Well actually it isn't stupid, just transparent given your posting history.

TL/DR basically means you start disagreements, then refuse to accept any other way of thinking but you're own, or rudely can't be arsed reading replies.

Payment processors will initiate chargebacks, the credit card's issuing bank will assume liability of the purchase if the merchant won't refund. The liability is recovered through the large APRs they charge if you do not wish to settle and cover within 56 days (in the UK). No where did I ever assume payment processors to be Paladins against corporate fraud. Consumer protection is part of the many compelling offers a card issuer lures people into applying for their financial service. If it's there, why not use it? Or do you enjoy the emotional roller coaster of gambling your hard earned on unknowns?

Good point but many will argue otherwise because they cannot afford Paypal as one of their payment options.

[Bitcoinorama]

Take a look at this;

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1iyzkg/if_you_get_caught_selling_bitcoin_hardware_on/

A lot of my assumed 'loyalty' stems from the fact they went to these lengths to provide greater protection for customers. You can't fault that.

TL/DR
A company accepting credit cards mean absolutely nothing other than you can do a chargeback.  Not saying that isn't worth something but you pretending processors are some kind of paladins against corporate fraud and a company accepting credit cards means they are beyond reproach is just stupid.  Well actually it isn't stupid, just transparent given your posting history.

TL/DR basically means you start disagreements, then refuse to accept any other way of thinking but you're own, or rudely can't be arsed reading replies.

Payment processors will initiate chargebacks, the credit card's issuing bank will assume liability of the purchase if the merchant won't refund. The liability is recovered through the large APRs they charge if you do not wish to settle and cover within 56 days (in the UK). No where did I ever assume payment processors to be Paladins against corporate fraud. Consumer protection is part of the many compelling offers a card issuer lures people into applying for their financial service. If it's there, why not use it? Or do you enjoy the emotional roller coaster of gambling your hard earned on unknowns?

Good point but many will argue otherwise because they cannot afford Paypal as one of their payment options.

Dan, after the abuse that has taken place with unsecured funds here this Spring and Summer, any additional fees from using Paypal as at least a secure option to make buyers feel safe could quite easily be passed onto buyers who would willingly pay the 2.9% Paypal fee to know they are protected. I would, and am happy to pay an additional 3% to know I won't be scammed or be part of a reckless gamble to build someone else's empire.

[dan99]

Take a look at this;

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1iyzkg/if_you_get_caught_selling_bitcoin_hardware_on/

A lot of my assumed 'loyalty' stems from the fact they went to these lengths to provide greater protection for customers. You can't fault that.

TL/DR
A company accepting credit cards mean absolutely nothing other than you can do a chargeback.  Not saying that isn't worth something but you pretending processors are some kind of paladins against corporate fraud and a company accepting credit cards means they are beyond reproach is just stupid.  Well actually it isn't stupid, just transparent given your posting history.

TL/DR basically means you start disagreements, then refuse to accept any other way of thinking but you're own, or rudely can't be arsed reading replies.

Payment processors will initiate chargebacks, the credit card's issuing bank will assume liability of the purchase if the merchant won't refund. The liability is recovered through the large APRs they charge if you do not wish to settle and cover within 56 days (in the UK). No where did I ever assume payment processors to be Paladins against corporate fraud. Consumer protection is part of the many compelling offers a card issuer lures people into applying for their financial service. If it's there, why not use it? Or do you enjoy the emotional roller coaster of gambling your hard earned on unknowns?

Good point but many will argue otherwise because they cannot afford Paypal as one of their payment options.

Dan, after the abuse that has taken place with unsecured funds here this Spring and Summer, any additional fees from using Paypal as at least a secure option to make buyers feel safe could quite easily be passed onto buyers who would willingly pay the 2.9% Paypal fee to know they are protected. I would, and am happy to pay an additional 3% to know I won't be scammed or be part of a reckless gamble to build someone else's empire.

Yes I would prefer over escrow. a new line of financing rather than your hard cold cash and your financial institution are protecting you in the event you wanna a refund.

[KS]

(...)
Well I haven't touched the whole B2B or B2C uncertainty, so you never know, but at least I will feel more secure that way.
(...)

I have verified this with my general counsel in Belgium and, in case of problem, you will have to sue as a business in a B2B case, in Belgium, for Belgium.

I can't say what the situation would be in the UK, but as I stated multiple times before, it's likely to be similar in other EU countries.

OP will not verify that with a UK lawyer, so you should probably put that in your agenda before following his "legal advice".

[CYPER]

(...)
Well I haven't touched the whole B2B or B2C uncertainty, so you never know, but at least I will feel more secure that way.
(...)

I have verified this with my general counsel in Belgium and, in case of problem, you will have to sue as a business in a B2B case, in Belgium, for Belgium.

I can't say what the situation would be in the UK, but as I stated multiple times before, it's likely to be similar in other EU countries.

OP will not verify that with a UK lawyer, so you should probably put that in your agenda before following his "legal advice".

I make my own research, draw my own conclusions and make my own choices. I will face my own consequences if any without shifting blame to anyone else.