HashFast Miner Protection Program Discussion

[klee]

Man I understand what you say, point is I want PayPal, Banks et al dead! I use coins...

Right and the coin purchasers of BFL, Avalon, bASIC, Cedartec, etc. are having a great time right now, aren't they?

It is lost battles, the war is not over 

[jspielberg]

ok, i just got some more specifics from Simon.

they definitely plan to open source hardware specs near the time coincident with the shipment of units.  their idea is to encourage the manufacture of inexpensive clones into which their raw chips will be inserted. 

they also have an admittedly fuzzy plan to sell the inhouse chassis at a discounted cost precisely to enable this program to be successful altho ultimately they want to become a chip manufacturer. 

all from the horse's mouth.

Cypherdoc - I appreciate the position you are in, but right now the miner protection plan of providing raw chips is not very compelling.  If an official HF executive staff member could commit to a non-fuzzy plan of providing turn-key useful hashing hardware if their products fail to be statistically cashflow positive after 90 days,

I think that would truly raise the bar for asic manufacturers... and should be a compelling selling point for the company.  If they want to be a successful chip company, they probably need to prove that they can be a successful hardware company first... otherwise it starts to feel a bit like Bitsyncom rather than Bitfury.  Personally I feel Bitfury is the better model for them to shoot for.

my .0002 btc

[klee]

Kudos to BF!

[Bitcoinorama]

Man I understand what you say, point is I want PayPal, Banks et al dead! I use coins...

Right and the coin purchasers of BFL, Avalon, bASIC, Cedartec, etc. are having a great time right now, aren't they?

It is lost battles, the war is not over 

Precisely which is why this 'Consumer Protection and Card Payment' thread is now officially a 'sticky';

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=272891.msg2924367#msg2924367

Do your own research. Apply due diligence. DO NOT use BTC as a pre-order payment method. Stay safe!

Peace!

[klee]

Man I understand what you say, point is I want PayPal, Banks et al dead! I use coins...

Right and the coin purchasers of BFL, Avalon, bASIC, Cedartec, etc. are having a great time right now, aren't they?

It is lost battles, the war is not over 

Precisely which is why this 'Consumer Protection and Card Payment' thread is now officially a 'sticky';

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=272891.msg2924367#msg2924367

Do your own research. Apply due diligence. DO NOT use BTC as a pre-order payment method. Stay safe!

Peace!

Guys like you will make BTC a Ripple cheaper clone lol
Peace too man I will use cryptos though

[crumbs]

...
Never whined and gone back in tears to my ex PIMPs calling for protection. Cryptos always paid me bigger profits than losses, as far as a pimp does not steal me. That's how it is played here and always will, sorry...Only A-males can survive this - let's find out who is and who is not!

Dude, this is not the thread for bragging about you going solo.  I'm glad you quit your pimp, though.  Power to the shota!

[AussieHash]

the two big safety valves you have imo are the full refund date and now the MPP.  of course, if they do a BK you'll probably never see these guarantees materialize.  but as i pointed out, they do have several funding options prior to that scenario.

Well I think this is a positive development, whether you or I choose to believe the promises is another question, but the equivalent policy would be bitfury saying they'll send you 256 bare chips if you don't achieve a ROI on your ($8000) full kit after 90 days. Any ASIC from now, even if delivered on time (Aug or Sept) may not achieve a ROI. This announcement is a good thing for miners and hopefully other vendors match it.

Of course if HF would match the returns policy of KnC or Megabigpower that would also be welcome news.

[cypherdoc]

ok, i just got some more specifics from Simon.

they definitely plan to open source hardware specs near the time coincident with the shipment of units.  their idea is to encourage the manufacture of inexpensive clones into which their raw chips will be inserted.  

they also have an admittedly fuzzy plan to sell the inhouse chassis at a discounted cost precisely to enable this program to be successful altho ultimately they want to become a chip manufacturer.  

all from the horse's mouth.

Cypherdoc - I appreciate the position you are in, but right now the miner protection plan of providing raw chips is not very compelling.  If an official HF executive staff member could commit to a non-fuzzy plan of providing turn-key useful hashing hardware if their products fail to be statistically cashflow positive after 90 days,

I think that would truly raise the bar for asic manufacturers... and should be a compelling selling point for the company.  If they want to be a successful chip company, they probably need to prove that they can be a successful hardware company first... otherwise it starts to feel a bit like Bitsyncom rather than Bitfury.  Personally I feel Bitfury is the better model for them to shoot for.

my .0002 btc

you're right.  ultimately all these things need to be stated or written by the company itself to be binding.  you all should press them on this.  i know i am.  

i am trying to be helpful.  seriously.

[jspielberg]

Cypher -

Please relay to the principals at HF (not sure how often they are on the boards) that the miner community is cool to the current miner protection plan as described.

If they really want this to be a selling point, they need to ensure  a couple of items:
1) that the extra hashing power would be made available in an immediately usable form (i.e. a  mining module.. .or stripped down system with chip/chiller... e.g. a caseless, PSU-less Baby-jet that the owner could procure reasonably with off the shelf parts for a nominal price).
2) clarity on ROI should be clear that purchase price is the BTC cost and not some USD equivalent.  Miners buy miners to make BTC.  Speculators buy BTC for USD for exchange rate bubbles.  You are selling miners not exchange rate machines.

We recognize that this program is currently unique and no other manufacturer offers anything similar. If these items were addressed I think more people would be willing to roll the dice with HF.

[cypherdoc]

Cypher -

Please relay to the principals at HF (not sure how often they are on the boards) that the miner community is cool to the current miner protection plan as described.

If they really want this to be a selling point, they need to ensure  a couple of items:
1) that the extra hashing power would be made available in an immediately usable form (i.e. a  mining module.. .or stripped down system with chip/chiller... e.g. a caseless, PSU-less Baby-jet that the owner could procure reasonably with off the shelf parts for a nominal price).
2) clarity on ROI should be clear that purchase price is the BTC cost and not some USD equivalent.  Miners buy miners to make BTC.  Speculators buy BTC for USD for exchange rate bubbles.  You are selling miners not exchange rate machines.

We recognize that this program is currently unique and no other manufacturer offers anything similar. If these items were addressed I think more people would be willing to roll the dice with HF.

done

[AussieHash]

If exponential growth continues at it's current rate I project a monthly increase in difficulty of 144%
1.356^2.911

And that is with about 100Th bring switch off prior to the difficulty jump and turned back on immediately post.

Maybe hashfast could send out the extra chips after 11 or 22 days. It won't take 90 days to see what kind of ROI will be made.

[ninjarobot]

profitable miners are happy miners are repeat customers.

So +1 to HF for rolling out a protection plan.

Of course some improvements can be made and jspielberg already mentioned two important ones:

1 - units are paid for in BTC, so ROI should be calculated in BTC
2 - miners should have a reasonable way to put additional chips to work in short order.

Of course, there is no way of telling if FH will still be in business 90 days after initial delivery. I certainly would hope so, but 90 days is a long time in Bitcoinland.

Also, the topic of additional chips and open sourcing design makes me wonder if we can not move towards an industry standard socket for bitcoin mining ASICs? Just like you could plug an AMD, Intel, or VIA chip in the same motherboard socket in the past (e.g. Socket 370) but you get the point. That would be a big boon for miners as it would provide a decent upgrade path without having to replace the PCB & chassis every 6 months.

[DyslexicZombei]

Bitcoinorama has valid points, like him or not.

I have a suggestion for this MPP. How about having John K. or BTCrow escrow a percentage of pre-order monies for this plan?

I'm sure that having a 3rd party escrow service vet that HF put their money (or BTC) where there mouth is, then that would allay a lot of hostility and suspicion, and would most likely result in increased sales.

I know I'd be more apt to either join a Group Buy or even try to set up a pre-escrowed Group Buy of my own, if I saw these types of guarantees were actually followed through with actions. Money talks, etc., etc..

[dropt]

They have your funds, if they f**k up, they promise to return monies, but have no third party to guarantee it.
You are basically acting on their word they can deliver on time.
They have offered no compelling evidence to believe this, and there is nothing backing you up if they can't, or don't succeed.

Actually there is, but I don't want to ruin your fun.

There are several companies copying the KnC method of bringing a device to market straight from receipt of chips as a prototype.

The fact you think KnC developed this "method" that "There are several companies copying" isn't bringing any strength to your arguments.

I cordially request that you return to wasting the precious hours of your day defending your crowned head: KNC, instead of white-knighting the 'community' at every turn.

[dan99]

If they are not offering payment by credit card, sorry to tell you there is; no payment protection, whatever way it's worded.

Fact is they haven't gone to the lengths of being adjudicated by a third party issuing bank or payment processor and they haven't met the stringent requirements in which such a third party will offer consumer protection.

None.

Slick marketing, no substance;

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=272891.0

You need third party payment protection or you stand to be out of pocket should delays, or failure occur.

Any company can take your money, promise you the world and fold up shop providing authorities what ever limited proof is required that they tried their best and walk.

Fact.

Couldn't agreed more 

[dan99]

Btc is a one way ticket but with credit cards and paypal is a return ticket if anything happens. Look at Butterfly and Avalon they were so highly spoken and trusted in the beginning but turn out otherwise.

[cypherdoc]

Btc is a one way ticket but with credit cards and paypal is a return ticket if anything happens. Look at Butterfly and Avalon they were so highly spoken and trusted in the beginning but turn out otherwise.

except that BFL took paypal and cc so they aren't really like Avalon. 

imo, it is more the ppl behind the company and their integrity.

[Bitcoinorama]

Btc is a one way ticket but with credit cards and paypal is a return ticket if anything happens. Look at Butterfly and Avalon they were so highly spoken and trusted in the beginning but turn out otherwise.

except that BFL took paypal and cc so they aren't really like Avalon.  

imo, it is more the ppl behind the company and their integrity.

So why aren't you?! It's also about accountability.

[jungle_dave]

Btc is a one way ticket but with credit cards and paypal is a return ticket if anything happens. Look at Butterfly and Avalon they were so highly spoken and trusted in the beginning but turn out otherwise.

could't agree more with that.
This is the only industry I know of that you pay up front for something that may or may not be delivered.
That said I am in a few KnC group buys, almost bought BFL equipment, Thank god I didn't. It would be great if a real company made a real product with real backing from actual capital then brought it to market !!

[cypherdoc]

Btc is a one way ticket but with credit cards and paypal is a return ticket if anything happens. Look at Butterfly and Avalon they were so highly spoken and trusted in the beginning but turn out otherwise.

except that BFL took paypal and cc so they aren't really like Avalon.  

imo, it is more the ppl behind the company and their integrity.

So why aren't you?! It's also about accountability.

you really have a problem.  MinorMan's thread about you says it all.