Future Proofing - Mesh Networking As Insurance Against ISP Attack

[moni3z]

A year or so ago some people here tried to implement this: http://www.funkfeuer.at and immediately ran into police and government threats, coercion and harassment. Such as suspected police agents purposely uploading illegal content so they could claim it was a rogue network and demand it be shutdown. It was also discovered to be trivial to jam/block, so abandoned. The whole point is it remains operating during a regime communications blackout, if they can simply locate and jam or destroy then it's fail

I'm just interested in this for bitcoin transactions, encrypted VoIP and hosting archived coursera and MIT free courses, SICP courses, free ebooks ect. Maybe I'll have to get that mesh dynamics router and put it on the roof of my building

[TraderTimm]

A year or so ago some people here tried to implement this: http://www.funkfeuer.at and immediately ran into police and government threats, coercion and harassment. Such as suspected police agents purposely uploading illegal content so they could claim it was a rogue network and demand it be shutdown. It was also discovered to be trivial to jam/block, so abandoned. The whole point is it remains operating during a regime communications blackout, if they can simply locate and jam or destroy then it's fail

I'm just interested in this for bitcoin transactions, encrypted VoIP and hosting archived coursera and MIT free courses, SICP courses, free ebooks ect. Maybe I'll have to get that mesh dynamics router and put it on the roof of my building

My primary aim was to stimulate discussion on a bitcoin-centric type of network. Trying to be everything to everbody is a recipe for failure, especially if you have diverse bandwidth needs like streaming video AND supporting bitcoin.

I figure the traffic the average bitcoin client produces, full nodes, miners and the like aren't too onerous - and could be serviced by some kind of distributed mesh. The first person that crams a linux-on-a-USB-Stick into a 3D Printed all-weather case with some solar and antenna leads is going to be frickin famous. We need these, and we need them before we get messed with.

[niko]

Lots of ideas in this thread. What would be a good first step - something realistic, and within a reach? I lack in-depth understanding of Bitcoin networking and of the mesh networks being developed, so I can't really cast a meaningful vote untill we get specific proposals here.

[td services]

A year or so ago some people here tried to implement this: http://www.funkfeuer.at and immediately ran into police and government threats, coercion and harassment. Such as suspected police agents purposely uploading illegal content so they could claim it was a rogue network and demand it be shutdown. It was also discovered to be trivial to jam/block, so abandoned. The whole point is it remains operating during a regime communications blackout, if they can simply locate and jam or destroy then it's fail

I'm just interested in this for bitcoin transactions, encrypted VoIP and hosting archived coursera and MIT free courses, SICP courses, free ebooks ect. Maybe I'll have to get that mesh dynamics router and put it on the roof of my building

My primary aim was to stimulate discussion on a bitcoin-centric type of network. Trying to be everything to everbody is a recipe for failure, especially if you have diverse bandwidth needs like streaming video AND supporting bitcoin.

I figure the traffic the average bitcoin client produces, full nodes, miners and the like aren't too onerous - and could be serviced by some kind of distributed mesh. The first person that crams a linux-on-a-USB-Stick into a 3D Printed all-weather case with some solar and antenna leads is going to be frickin famous. We need these, and we need them before we get messed with.

What kind of pricepoint are you looking at? This is what I have in mind, though with rasperry-pi size board which is linux capable, like Cubieboard or Beagleboard. I'm looking at sub-$100 in quantity, units are the size of a pack of cigarettes. 3D print and Shapeways for development, injection mold in quantity at Protomold for about $3000 for molds plus a few dollars per case. Also plan on device being modularly configurable to plug in wall plug, use solar, or batteries as wearable device. Includes WiFi and software radio for other frequencies.

[tvbcof]

One conundrum about mesh networks is that they would not be needed except in an extreme scenario of totalitarian network control, and in that case participating in one and thus subverting the network control would carry a harsh penalty.  To make matters worse, anything transmitting on an electromagnetic spectrum would be a beacon saying 'come arrest me' or 'drone target here.'

Probably the most effective means of overcoming the problems associated with a totalitarian form of government would be to overthrow it, but that would take time and a functional monetary solution would have difficulty remaining viable with years of down-time.

The best bet has always seemed to me to piggyback on a functional official network to send transaction messages covertly.  Read 'steganography.'  This would, however, require competent people operating in relatively safe locations.  It would also necessitate a tight protocol and limited activity since the overhead and risk of performing a transaction would be significant.  This is the primary reason I lobby strongly for an 'off-chain' solution whereby the 'gold standard' or 'reserve' was carried on compact chain upon which ad-hoc off-chain solutions were built as needed and adapted (or abandoned) as the threats evolve.

I've always kinda hoped that Bitcoin would take on the role of the 'reserve', but as it develops into a solution with aspirations to natively support all economic activity it picks up baggage which would be hard to handle in a situation where it was living under significant network attack, and hard to easily unload if the need arose.

[Carlton Banks]

One conundrum about mesh networks is that they would not be needed except in an extreme scenario of totalitarian network control, and in that case participating in one and thus subverting the network control would carry a harsh penalty. 

We're ssssso close to that description already, we're still at a stage where heavy/total surveillance is being sold to us as as an unavoidable, good thing. Once the cultural/behavioural changes in the general population are more or less affirmed, hello fascism.

Probably the most effective means of overcoming the problems associated with a totalitarian form of government would be to overthrow it, but that would take time and a functional monetary solution would have difficulty remaining viable with years of down-time.

The best bet has always seemed to me to piggyback on a functional official network to send transaction messages covertly.  Read 'steganography.'  This would, however, require competent people operating in relatively safe locations.  It would also necessitate a tight protocol and limited activity since the overhead and risk of performing a transaction would be significant.  This is the primary reason I lobby strongly for an 'off-chain' solution whereby the 'gold standard' or 'reserve' was carried on compact chain upon which ad-hoc off-chain solutions were built as needed and adapted (or abandoned) as the threats evolve.

I've always kinda hoped that Bitcoin would take on the role of the 'reserve', but as it develops into a solution with aspirations to natively support all economic activity it picks up baggage which would be hard to handle in a situation where it was living under significant network attack, and hard to easily unload if the need arose.

This could well turn out to be the case. Mining reward distribution would have to go to all public keys equally, or ceased altogether. A single individual could take on a kind of neo-Satoshi role of transporting the blockchain information to places where they could safely and covertly access the internet to process the latest transactions they can gather (disguised as some other communication).

[Rassah]

One conundrum about mesh networks is that they would not be needed except in an extreme scenario of totalitarian network control

I kinda disagree. Mesh networks have massive benefits, the biggest of which is not having to pay $50+ a month for internet at home, and another $30+ a month for a data plan on your mobile. They also should have less downtime, due to redundancy, and may be faster, since packets can be routed over more channels. The problem, or conundrum, with mesh is that they have a chicken-egg problem of what should come first. I would love to run a mesh, but my neighbors don't have it, so I would just be by myself. My neighbors would love to run a mesh, but I don't have it, so they would basically be running it by themselves. Thus, there is plenty of incentives to get a mesh set up, but no one wants to go first. There is also a possibly bigger issue of "I'm paying for my internet, why should I give it away for free?" which may be more difficult to overcome, though possible, if you agree to share resources among paying customers (My husband and I use different cell providers - t-mobile and at&t - which we individually pay for, but we mesh our phones together so that both of us always have a good signal, even when one provider has a crappy one).

The only solution to this conundrum I've found is to piggy-back mesh on top of something else useful, like the bitcoincard. It's primarily a means of storing bitcoins and making payments where web may not be available, and mesh comes second, but thanks to that type of device, mesh may become prevalent without anyone even noticing or planning for it. Hopefully there may be other such devices, where mesh capability is secondary, and the primary use is more of a necessity. I guess lack of cheap, easy to deploy mesh devices may be another issue. I'd love to see something small and solar powered/charged (or induction charged that you can attach to a powerline carrying pole) that you could buy for $25. I'd fill my neighborhood with those first chance I get.

[TraderTimm]

Simple, break it down into smaller parts, managed by a collaborative database hosted somewhere in the darknet (I2P/Tor) for now.

This could be applied to any other country, but I'll use the USA for an example.

Continent Subdivisions:

East Coast - Further subdivided into contiguous zones based on population, so the effort to link-up would concentrate on higher density areas first. So, major cities like Boston, NYC, Baltimore, DC, Atlanta, and so on...

Same thing for the Midwest, Mountain and West Coast areas.

The main effort would be to build meshes with people who are in the urban zones using user-commodity hardware that isn't cost prohibitive, and linking up those nodes with well-placed Outdoor Solar Nodes (OSN's). For redundancy, you'd probably have to have at least three different long-haul-strings of OSN's connecting each mesh, since you'd be putting these things on natural and artificial structures, and there is a possibility of singular node failure.

I'd also like to have at least 2 - 3 nodes at any given time able to overlap on the long-haul side, so you don't suddenly get a break in one of your long haul routes because that one OSN you put up between Boston and NYC decided to crap out.

Then you'd need an ongoing program where you'd have mobile techs, sponsored by the largest pools, to keep their area of nodes functioning - either dedicated to a long-haul segment or a given area of urban mesh. That is really the only way to get it going, compensating people for some of the cost of keeping it running. It could be debated that this activity would be limited to fixing breaks, instead of an ongoing fee - but I would like to have someone maintaining active monitoring of the routes so you can tell when reconvergence events occur, indicating a possible 'break'.

I suppose getting that started would be a tough argument at first, because no ISP that I know of in North America is currently messing with Bitcoin traffic, and most people would probably switch over to Tor or I2P -- however, I think it is still important to aspire towards independent networking sooner rather than later.

If we don't have something set up, then we'll have to resort to "Data Couriers" of some type to make regular 'drops' of the blockchain between places and/or countries - which wouldn't be optimal, but better than nothing.

I'll keep thinking about this problem, and I encourage any suggestions or ideas regarding this.

Edit: Was also considering "gamifying" the whole thing and making reward bounties available for the entire project (across smaller deliverables), but I'm not sure how to prevent something like that being gamed by bad actors.

[TraderTimm]

Ambient Backscatter for transmission in urban areas perhaps?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX9cbxLSOkE

The possibilities are exciting...

[td services]

Ambient Backscatter for transmission in urban areas perhaps?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX9cbxLSOkE

The possibilities are exciting...

Very cool. Research paper is at http://homes.cs.washington.edu/~gshyam/Papers/amb.pdf .

A fractal antenna, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal_antenna , may give it a wide band and increase the power harvest.

[TheKoziTwo]

I kinda disagree. Mesh networks have massive benefits, the biggest of which is not having to pay $50+ a month for internet at home, and another $30+ a month for a data plan on your mobile. They also should have less downtime, due to redundancy, and may be faster, since packets can be routed over more channels. The problem, or conundrum, with mesh is that they have a chicken-egg problem of what should come first. I would love to run a mesh, but my neighbors don't have it, so I would just be by myself. My neighbors would love to run a mesh, but I don't have it, so they would basically be running it by themselves. Thus, there is plenty of incentives to get a mesh set up, but no one wants to go first.

I'm thinking along those lines as well. Is there any website where you can "pledge" your commitment to setup a node given that x others in your area is willing to do the same? Perhaps that could help getting it started. I love the idea of mesh net so much I may actually invest and setup a node even being completely alone in my area, but I'd imagine very few is holding this attitude.

I'm silently praying for quantum entanglement internet to arrive. A 1 minute explanation of quantum entanglement for those not familiar. It would change everything 

[MysteryMiner]

Meshnet is not going to viable alternative for now because no suitable radio equipment is available. WiFi is not good enough because of small distance and possibility of jamming.

I have set up small meshnet using 4 routers running DD-WRT but they are not going to work over distance larger than small block. Dedicated amplifiers and antennas will help but not enough to reliably reach closest neighboring village. WiMAX would be more useful but I never had possibility to play around with them.

The meshnet concept must be divided in two parts. One part is development of ready to use software (firmware) for routing, interoperability and encryption protocols. Other part is development of new radio-electronic devices. Frequency hopping and non-standart (other than 2.4 and 5GHz) frequencies used when capable devices agree on them will somewhat help against jamming and similar attacks.

[TippingPoint]

WiFi can be supplemented with line-of-sight, visible-light communication using inexpensive LEDs.

Ronja can be used to create a 10 Mbit/s full duplex Ethernet point-to-point link.

The range of the basic configuration is 1.4 km (0.87 mi). And it would not currently be subject to FCC regulations, imo.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RONJA

[Rassah]

On yeah, that's right, just use lasers for long distance. No radio interference and no jamming.

[tvbcof]

On yeah, that's right, just use lasers for long distance. No radio interference and no jamming.

Sure.  Brilliant!  What could possible interfere with line-of-sight?

[niko]

On yeah, that's right, just use lasers for long distance. No radio interference and no jamming.

No radio interference, true. But fog, rain, birds, dust storms, snow, spiders...? Also, jamming a beam of light is more trivial than jamming a radio signal.

[MysteryMiner]

I was wondering who will mention Ronja. It will need cooperation of at least 2 persons to set it up. The radio waves are omnidirectional so it is easier to connect to other mesh nodes. But highly directional light beams are harder to jam by electronic means.

On yeah, that's right, just use lasers for long distance. No radio interference and no jamming.

Sure.  Brilliant!  What could possible interfere with line-of-sight?

Yo never had birds crapping on outdoor WiFi antennas in such large quantity that they stop working?

On yeah, that's right, just use lasers for long distance. No radio interference and no jamming.

No radio interference, true. But fog, rain, birds, dust storms, snow, spiders...? Also, jamming a beam of light is more trivial than jamming a radio signal.

They both can be damaged using phisical means. Hit/dislodge WiFi directional antenna or Ronja beam = signal lost. But WiFi can be additionally jammed using purely radio means. Light beam is not that easy unless somebody can shine a laser into transceiver.

[Carlton Banks]

On yeah, that's right, just use lasers for long distance. No radio interference and no jamming.

No radio interference, true. But fog, rain, birds, dust storms, snow, spiders...? Also, jamming a beam of light is more trivial than jamming a radio signal.

Strategic redundancy would probably be good move for light based transceiving, make the network more node dense than would be minimally necessary. And so once again, cheap, expendable devices would be the only viable way to maintain uptime in the face of hostility.

[Rassah]

On yeah, that's right, just use lasers for long distance. No radio interference and no jamming.

No radio interference, true. But fog, rain, birds, dust storms, snow, spiders...? Also, jamming a beam of light is more trivial than jamming a radio signal.

Depends on how much power you put through it    *sizzle!*

[Etlase2]

On yeah, that's right, just use lasers for long distance. No radio interference and no jamming.

Sure.  Brilliant!  What could possible interfere with line-of-sight?

roflmao