Future Proofing - Mesh Networking As Insurance Against ISP Attack

[luv2drnkbr]

Anybody figure out how to make this work on Windows yet?

[tvbcof]

Anybody figure out how to make this work on Windows yet?

Why bother.  Really.  Especially after the Win-8/TPM goings-on.  Making something secure for Windows is kind of like putting a V8 engine in a riding mower.  Some people have nothing better to do so it does happen from time to time I guess.  But it makes a lot more sense if one is going to build a significant structure to have it rest on a reliable foundation.

[niko]

On yeah, that's right, just use lasers for long distance. No radio interference and no jamming.

No radio interference, true. But fog, rain, birds, dust storms, snow, spiders...? Also, jamming a beam of light is more trivial than jamming a radio signal.

Depends on how much power you put through it    *sizzle!*

  then it sizzles your receiver as well!

[TippingPoint]

In the Ethernet protocol, data is sent in packets, with automatic error checking of each packet.  If a bird flys between two optical transponders, any packets that do not pass the cyclic redundancy check are sent again.  And of course, transponders are placed high enough to avoid problems with humans and cars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_frame

But heavy fog is definitely a problem for optical data transmission systems.

[TraderTimm]

In the Ethernet protocol, data is sent in packets, with automatic error checking of each packet.  If a bird flys between two transponders, any packets that do not pass the cyclic redundancy check are sent again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_frame

But heavy fog is definitely a problem for optical transmission data systems.

While a lot of long-haul lasers sounds exceptionally cool, that's true, it would still be susceptible to environmental factors. Unless someone decides to start trenching fiber on their own from the back of a pickup truck, we'll need some other method - perhaps a mix of passive directional 'cantenna' type relays and powered ones.

I'm still absorbing everything presented in this thread, thanks for contributing ideas.

[Carlton Banks]

I'm still absorbing everything presented in this thread, thanks for contributing ideas.

Likewise, although there's one obvious conclusion to be drawn without too much contemplation: there are so many different data transmission vectors that can be used, so there's strength in depth there. I wonder whether there's a good strategy to combining the different techniques with each other to help create redundant coverage?

[tvbcof]

A privately operated network would be a very useful thing to have actually.

What would likely be most robust and practical would actually be physical lines.  Coax when possible, though POTS could be used as well but it would radiate signal better and thus be more easy to detect.  Fiber would be ideal when it can be arranged.  Deployment would be within reach of most people and the raw material is available for appropriation.  Stock up on ends and crimping tools ya'all.

Routing is a complex subject and any robust routing protocols will likely detract significantly from the bandwidth capacity of the medium.  This is particularly true since it would be an ad-hoc network with continuous damage as pathways are discovered and destroyed.  Anyone hoping to satisfy their need for streaming porn should probably start making plans (e.g., personal libraries) right now since there is little hope of a privately maintained and surreptitious LAN or WAN being very suitable for that purpose.

[TippingPoint]

Long-range Wi-Fi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-range_Wi-Fi

Outdoor point-to-point arrangements, through use of directional antennas, can be extended with many kilometers between stations.

... availability of proven free software like OpenWrt, DD-WRT, Tomato that works even on old routers (WRT54G for instance) and makes modes like WDS, OLSR, etc., available to anyone. Including revenue sharing models for hotspots.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubiquiti

    
Biquad Antenna Construction
http://martybugs.net/wireless/biquad/

[Rassah]

One big issue with the latest suggestions is cost. Enormous costs. A 500 yard WiFi repeater I'm selling is about $2,000

[Carlton Banks]

One big issue with the latest suggestions is cost. Enormous costs. A 500 yard WiFi repeater I'm selling is about $2,000

Are we not the future wealthy elite?  

Another problem is the constant maintenance. I've seen people setting up repeater systems before, and it took a lonnnng time to figure it through. It's a good thing we're imagining all of this as a Bitcoin fallback network, we can gamify it by getting the nodes to detect and record downtime, and offer BTC time based reward-on-re-up incentives to our new engineering warriors   Maybe even atmospheric sensors to detect how dedicated our repair militant was to getting the thing online again  

[TraderTimm]

One big issue with the latest suggestions is cost. Enormous costs. A 500 yard WiFi repeater I'm selling is about $2,000

Are we not the future wealthy elite?  

Another problem is the constant maintenance. I've seen people setting up repeater systems before, and it took a lonnnng time to figure it through. It's a good thing we're imagining all of this as a Bitcoin fallback network, we can gamify it by getting the nodes to detect and record downtime, and offer BTC time based reward-on-re-up incentives to our new engineering warriors   Maybe even atmospheric sensors to detect how dedicated our repair militant was to getting the thing online again  

I love the gamification aspect, but its hard to prevent gaming of the system. Lets say I have a bounty for fixing a long-haul node, but all I've really done is disconnect the power leads from the solar circuit to the board. I reconnect it, get my money and go on to disable another node for profit.

I'm not sure how to get around that kind of behavior.

[Rassah]

One big issue with the latest suggestions is cost. Enormous costs. A 500 yard WiFi repeater I'm selling is about $2,000

Are we not the future wealthy elite?  

Another problem is the constant maintenance. I've seen people setting up repeater systems before, and it took a lonnnng time to figure it through. It's a good thing we're imagining all of this as a Bitcoin fallback network, we can gamify it by getting the nodes to detect and record downtime, and offer BTC time based reward-on-re-up incentives to our new engineering warriors   Maybe even atmospheric sensors to detect how dedicated our repair militant was to getting the thing online again  

I love the gamification aspect, but its hard to prevent gaming of the system. Lets say I have a bounty for fixing a long-haul node, but all I've really done is disconnect the power leads from the solar circuit to the board. I reconnect it, get my money and go on to disable another node for profit.

I'm not sure how to get around that kind of behavior.

Guns?

[Carlton Banks]

One big issue with the latest suggestions is cost. Enormous costs. A 500 yard WiFi repeater I'm selling is about $2,000

Are we not the future wealthy elite?  

Another problem is the constant maintenance. I've seen people setting up repeater systems before, and it took a lonnnng time to figure it through. It's a good thing we're imagining all of this as a Bitcoin fallback network, we can gamify it by getting the nodes to detect and record downtime, and offer BTC time based reward-on-re-up incentives to our new engineering warriors   Maybe even atmospheric sensors to detect how dedicated our repair militant was to getting the thing online again  

I love the gamification aspect, but its hard to prevent gaming of the system. Lets say I have a bounty for fixing a long-haul node, but all I've really done is disconnect the power leads from the solar circuit to the board. I reconnect it, get my money and go on to disable another node for profit.

I'm not sure how to get around that kind of behavior.

Guns?

Surveillance. "Sensors" would be a less loaded expression.

[TraderTimm]

The only way I can see around the gaming problem for deployment and maintenance is a steady stream of BTC coming from those interested in growing the network, so you have a given area you'll gladly deploy and fix - and you getting those funds depends on your uptime or something tied to doing a good job.

It would be harder to 'fake' a node than it would be to fake its broken and needs fixing for a bounty. Would have to include some kind of neighbor check either using underlying TCP/IP routing protocols or packet transit stats for verification. (A neighbor has your MAC as the source, etc..)

That would enable automatic polling too, so you couldn't just put up a node, turn it off and keep getting BTC. It would have to stay alive and be available.

[trilightzone.org]

Some interesting ideas and to add one more; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_line_communication

Many people have electricity which means wires which means AC or even DC in type of setups. A community can interconnect using existing electricity wires with the required hardware or if possible opensource kind of hardware. Place in each community X amount of special gateways which use maybe a different means to exchange data to another gateway at distance etc. Remember also that a wireless signal can be jammed although if we get to that stage one might just switch frequencies which are not.

[td services]

Powerline ethernet adapters work well across one phase in a building, has problems hopping from one phase to the other in 110/220 wiring or across transformers. The coils in a transformer act like RF chokes, blocking high frequencies. It might work in an apartment or condo building with a wireless hop to a rooftop gateway.

[jago25_98]

 Something that would help all of these efforts would be a protocol more designed for intermittent than TCP/IP?

 What if something much more lightweight could be used on mobile phones via bluetooth, searching for nodes, passing packets whenever available and allowing the user to have some manual input on what priority to give to relayed info. This could then sync over other networks as and when they become available.
Bitcoin is too heavyweight for this AFAIK. It could be used however to share more basic information. You could walk around in China with your phone spamming one and all with Tor relay node IPs for example.

 I think we have limits on the disruption potential of Bluetooth? I think to relise the potential you would need to work at a lower level than simple application... anyone care to comment?

[tvbcof]

Something that would help all of these efforts would be a protocol more designed for intermittent than TCP/IP?

 What if something much more lightweight could be used on mobile phones via bluetooth, searching for nodes, passing packets whenever available and allowing the user to have some manual input on what priority to give to relayed info. This could then sync over other networks as and when they become available.
Bitcoin is too heavyweight for this AFAIK. It could be used however to share more basic information. You could walk around in China with your phone spamming one and all with Tor relay node IPs for example.

 I think we have limits on the disruption potential of Bluetooth? I think to relise the potential you would need to work at a lower level than simple application... anyone care to comment?

At the lower levels, one of the more interesting things I've run across is Bernstein's curvecp:  http://curvecp.org/

At a higher level, the Bitcoin protocol is actually pretty good due to certain of the inherent characteristics of the early (including current) implementation.  Or more accurately, it's 'being' for lack of a better description.  In fact that was one of the major draws of it to me.

1)  It is not real-time and has a high latency by most network standards.  That is to say, the block frequency is 10 minutes though of course this is variable and random which are two very useful features of a system which is hard to analyze and attack...though in fairness not terribly relevant to this discussion.  Latency kills when doing high-speed network analysis or shaping.

2)  It is compact.  An entire message can fit into one frame.  This is key because it is fairly difficult to perform stream and correlation analysis when there is no stream.  Of course there will be a handshake, but by the time a payload is inspected, it is likely already gone.  The only defense is to perform DPI and filtering in real-time rather than to cut off the first payload packet when it is discovered  to contain objectionable content, but doing this on all syn payload data would be expensive.  Another very useful feature of a tiny and discrete message is that it can more readily hide in various cracks and crevices.  I think there may even be enough frame space to effectively obscure packets in such a way that it would give filters grief but I am not sure about this.

I don't claim to be a guru at this stuff, but do have some experiences with it and again these natural defenses attracted me to the solution when I first heard about it.  Basically from early on I figure that if Bitcoin never needs to protect itself against a robust and dedicated network level attack, there would not be a very compelling need for the the solution at all.  Which would be great actually.

To be more clear, I probably should mention that I'm thinking more about how/if individuals can perform individual transactions in hostile jurisdictions.  Hopefully it would be possible for heavier support infrastructure (e.g., miners) to operate in more 'free' environments meaning either jurisdictionally friendly locales or private networks or both.