No Taxation Without Representation

[FinShaggy]

From what I have heard Bitcoin is now an official "currency"/fiat in America, so now it will be taxed and eventually watched and regulated. BUT...

If they are going to get all federal with Bitcoin, a Bitcoin company should get a grant to start an agency that keeps track of how much bitcoin costs, and how many bitcoins have been mined, and has information on mining and how to get started easily accessible online, as well as give them access to the stock market, and allow them to sell their stocks (each stock would represent a certain % of the companies total BTC) on the New York Stock Exchange.

And I'm saying at the very LEAST that's what should be done.

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[Foxpup]

Bitcoin is not now a recognised currency in America (and nobody ever said it was "official" or "fiat"), it always was. The latest ruling is merely a confirmation of that fact. It was always subject to taxation and regulation. Anyone who believes it wasn't or isn't is living in a fantasy world.

In any case, nothing in your post follows from that. Why should there be a "Bitcoin agency"? Why does the NYSE need to get involved? Why does any of it need to be done? It doesn't make any sense.

The phrase "no taxation without representation" in modern usage refers to right of taxpayers to have a say in who's taxing them. Do you pay taxes? Are you allowed to vote in elections? If the answer is yes to both questions, there is no taxation without representation. I'm not entirely sure how you think the phrase applies to Bitcoin. Bitcoin itself is neither taxed nor represented. The people using it are. The people pay taxes, and the people are represented by the politicians they elected. It's got nothing to do with Bitcoin.

[FinShaggy]

Bitcoin is not now a recognised currency in America (and nobody ever said it was "official" or "fiat"), it always was. The latest ruling is merely a confirmation of that fact.

No, it was never fiat before. Ex: Canada made laws that are the exact OPPOSITE of the ruling in America. Look up "Common Law", nothing is regulated or illegal, or anything until a supreme court judge (state or federal) makes a ruling, at that point the judges ruling becomes the "Common Law" of the land. But without an official ruling, trading Bitcoins in America was no different than trading sea shells, or World of Warcraft gold.

[FinShaggy]

The phrase "no taxation without representation" in modern usage refers to right of taxpayers to have a say in who's taxing them.

You can't just decide that that is what it means "now", when that is not historically what it has meant at all. When that phrase was used to DEFEND the banks and pockets of American citizens, they were saying that they should not be able to be taxed without proper representation in Parliament. And I don't see why you think things have changed, all it means when you use it now is: We should not be taxed without proper representation in government. We shouldn't just get to be part of the vote, we should be represented in some way. At the very least have a tradable stock, and maybe a PAC.

[alephi]

Bottom line is that this is how the Americans choose to understand it.    Nothing in this world happens without the USA taking an interest one way or another. They will find ways to exert influence and extract profit.  If bitcoin wants legitimacy as a unit of exchange this is how it will be. It looks like sucking the devils' cock but that's a personal view.

[FinShaggy]

Bottom line is that this is how the Americans choose to understand it.    Nothing in this world happens without the USA taking an interest one way or another. They will find ways to exert influence and extract profit.  If bitcoin wants legitimacy as a unit of exchange this is how it will be. It looks like sucking the devils' cock but that's a personal view.

That simply is not true. All it takes is people going public.

Look at civil rights and gay marriage, and more recently Marijuana. At first the police get away with what they do because these people are behind closed doors. So the police can pretend they are all violent rappers, or slutty sodomists that want to do things with children, or "dopers". But once you start marching in the streets, and everyone sees that the police are harassing REAL regular Americans, then things start to change and representation is eminent.

All we really need is some bitcoin millionaires and multi-hundred-thousandaires to start doing shit out in the open. Even if it is just documenting their use of coins like stocks.

[Foxpup]

No, it was never fiat before.

It isn't fiat now, and nobody said it was or is. Learn to read.

But without an official ruling, trading Bitcoins in America was no different than trading sea shells, or World of Warcraft gold.

Trading Bitcoins in America still is not substantially different than trading sea shells or WoW gold. Look up barter law. Anything used as currency will be recognised as such by the courts. No judge is ever going to say "Sorry your tribe got scammed out of millions of dollars worth of sea shells, but sea shells aren't real money, so we can't help you." The judge will instead rule that the sea shells are used as currency and have value, and that's exactly what happened with Bitcoin.

You can't just decide that that is what it means "now", when that is not historically what it has meant at all. When that phrase was used to DEFEND the banks and pockets of American citizens, they were saying that they should not be able to be taxed without proper representation in Parliament.

That's because the Parliament didn't represent Americans, and never would, as it was the British Parliament. In case you missed it, Americans no longer pay taxes to the British government. Americans pay taxes to, and are represented by, the American government. There is certainly no taxation without representation in the original sense of the phrase.

And I don't see why you think things have changed, all it means when you use it now is: We should not be taxed without proper representation in government. We shouldn't just get to be part of the vote, we should be represented in some way. At the very least have a tradable stock, and maybe a PAC.

"Being part of the vote" is exactly what "representation" means. You vote for a person to represent you and your interests in the House of Representatives. That's why it's called a representative democracy, as opposed to a direct democracy, where there are no representatives and instead the people vote on issues directly. And I don't even want to know where you got the idea that stock ownership is somehow part of democracy.

[FinShaggy]

Trading Bitcoins in America still is not substantially different than trading sea shells or WoW gold. Look up barter law.

Seashells do not fall under barter law, they do not have value. I could give you as many seashells as I wanted, and neither of us would ever have to pay taxes. Bitcoins are different. Bitcoins are now a REAL recognized currency. More like TRUE digital gold than any form of in game money. It was always a little more like gold than those things, but up until now it was the same as WoW gold in the eyes of the law and most Americans.

[Foxpup]

Seashells do not fall under barter law, they do not have value.

Of course they have value. Everything has value. Rocks have value. A sack of shit has value. It's just a question of how much value these things have.

I could give you as many seashells as I wanted, and neither of us would ever have to pay taxes.

Try telling that to the IRS. Barter transactions are, in fact, taxable. If they weren't, everybody would be using sea shells as money just to get out of paying taxes.

[Spendulus]

From what I have heard Bitcoin is now an official "currency"/fiat in America, so now it will be taxed and eventually watched and regulated. BUT...

If they are going to get all federal with Bitcoin, a Bitcoin company should get a grant to start an agency that keeps track of how much bitcoin costs, and how many bitcoins have been mined, and has information on mining and how to get started easily accessible online, as well as give them access to the stock market, and allow them to sell their stocks (each stock would represent a certain % of the companies total BTC) on the New York Stock Exchange.

And I'm saying at the very LEAST that's what should be done.

No.....

You'd think a peer to peer currency could jump through all the hoops that regular money does?  It can't and I'll explain why.  Regular money is created from nothing, then goes through the hands of about ten guys in suits before you see it.  Then every time you spend or move it, another ten guys in suits handles it.  See?  They all take a piece of it.  They can do this buy making more imaginary money in various ways.

Bitcoin can't do that.  It might force them to get real jobs, though.

And I could use a lawn boy.  And a pool girl.

[FinShaggy]

Seashells do not fall under barter law, they do not have value.

Of course they have value. Everything has value. Rocks have value. A sack of shit has value. It's just a question of how much value these things have.

No, you do not have to pay taxes on rocks you find, or sacks of shit (unless that sack of shit came from a store and is meant to be fertilizer) You are getting ridiculous.

[alephi]

That simply is not true. All it takes is people going public.

Look at civil rights and gay marriage, and more recently Marijuana. At first the police get away with what they do because these people are behind closed doors. So the police can pretend they are all violent rappers, or slutty sodomists that want to do things with children, or "dopers". But once you start marching in the streets, and everyone sees that the police are harassing REAL regular Americans, then things start to change and representation is eminent.

All we really need is some bitcoin millionaires and multi-hundred-thousandaires to start doing shit out in the open. Even if it is just documenting their use of coins like stocks.

I think they already are to a certain degree and that's why it hasn't been made illegal to trade bitcoins in the USA. Also the risk of shutting bitcoin out of US markets and still having it available across the rest of the world must give someone nightmares.  The only alternative the USA has is to recognise it and gain some control over it.  If they regulate it they can also manipulate it in the event of a free flight of USD into BTC for example. 

[Foxpup]

No, you do not have to pay taxes on rocks you find, or sacks of shit (unless that sack of shit came from a store and is meant to be fertilizer) You are getting ridiculous.

There's nothing ridiculous about it. You do have to pay tax on rocks you dig out of the ground if you sell or otherwise trade them. Ask any quarry. Why would you even think otherwise?

[J603]

Seashells do not fall under barter law, they do not have value.

Of course they have value. Everything has value. Rocks have value. A sack of shit has value. It's just a question of how much value these things have.

No, you do not have to pay taxes on rocks you find, or sacks of shit (unless that sack of shit came from a store and is meant to be fertilizer) You are getting ridiculous.

You don't have to pay a tax on a rock if you find it and do nothing with it.

But if you use that rock as currency and buy something with it, or sell it for money you will get taxed.

[FinShaggy]

That simply is not true. All it takes is people going public.

Look at civil rights and gay marriage, and more recently Marijuana. At first the police get away with what they do because these people are behind closed doors. So the police can pretend they are all violent rappers, or slutty sodomists that want to do things with children, or "dopers". But once you start marching in the streets, and everyone sees that the police are harassing REAL regular Americans, then things start to change and representation is eminent.

All we really need is some bitcoin millionaires and multi-hundred-thousandaires to start doing shit out in the open. Even if it is just documenting their use of coins like stocks.

I think they already are to a certain degree and that's why it hasn't been made illegal to trade bitcoins in the USA. Also the risk of shutting bitcoin out of US markets and still having it available across the rest of the world must give someone nightmares.  The only alternative the USA has is to recognise it and gain some control over it.  If they regulate it they can also manipulate it in the event of a free flight of USD into BTC for example. 

True, I was thinking it was a bad thing. But I guess it is a good thing. Now Americans will treat bitcoins like paypal, if not internet gold.

[FinShaggy]

No, you do not have to pay taxes on rocks you find, or sacks of shit (unless that sack of shit came from a store and is meant to be fertilizer) You are getting ridiculous.

There's nothing ridiculous about it. You do have to pay tax on rocks you dig out of the ground if you sell or otherwise trade them. Ask any quarry. Why would you even think otherwise?

Yeah if you sell them. But if you just give someone a rock, you in no way owe taxes to the government. And if you keep it on your shelf, same thing.

[edd]

No, you do not have to pay taxes on rocks you find, or sacks of shit (unless that sack of shit came from a store and is meant to be fertilizer) You are getting ridiculous.

There's nothing ridiculous about it. You do have to pay tax on rocks you dig out of the ground if you sell or otherwise trade them. Ask any quarry. Why would you even think otherwise?

Yeah if you sell them. But if you just give someone a rock, you in no way owe taxes to the government. And if you keep it on your shelf, same thing.

You can give away whatever you want without being taxed. The recipient pays Income Tax on ANY type of income, be it cash, stock, diamonds, or bitcoins. The IRS requires you to report your income if it passes a certain threshold: a nugget of quartz worth less than $5 - you're probably safe not including it on your tax return; nuggets of gold worth $5000 - they want to know. A text file with pi notated out to one hundred decimal places - they could care less; a bitcoin wallet with over 1000 bitcoins - they expect you to report it.

The IRS doesn't care where you get your wealth from or what form it takes, they still want you to pay taxes on it. This hasn't changed.

[og kush420]

.01 btc says op is trolling. either that or looking for an argument.