Why is there even polls about if BFL is a scam or not?

[trichome]

Honestly aside from the people that are hashing with big rigs that went out the backdoor from them, or one of the many script created alt accounts they have to spew fanboi bullshit, is a poll even considered needed to decide if their a scam?  Any person with a brain and i know ya got them people can do 20 minutes of research here and facepalm over all their lies.  What other company out there can get away with insulting customers potential and current, lie to customers about product, shipping, god you name it they've lied about it, get caught selling units out the backdoor, break the law in i can't list how many different ways.  Real poll should be the time until they fold completely and what employee(s) will get out with whatever $/BTC they have or have stashed in their own mining consortium(eclipse mining pool).   

To be clear i had a 2012 order that i had refunded thank god, i paid with paypal(wasn't easy but got it done). Just know others are fucked and sick of seeing people post something like "I sure hope this isn't true, looking forward to my order i placed in may of 2013".  These type of posts remind that there are some people that make purchases without any research at all.  Honestly how much money are they giving this forum so they can keep pedaling their fucking bullshit.

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[fcmatt]

The reason this is all taking place is greed. Basically the major motivation of almost everyone here at this point in time.
I, we, and everyone else just has to look in the mirror to see the reason why it can happen. Bitcoin will make us rich.

[odolvlobo]

I'm not clear on why people say that BFL is a scam. I guess their definition of "scam" is different from mine, or perhaps I am missing something.

To me, a scam would be taking pre-orders without ever intending to ship anything. BFL is shipping miners, right? So, what is the scam?

I don't think the fact that they are shipping 8 months late is a scam, either. I doubt they intended for the delay to be this long. Without intention, how can there be fraud? No fraud, no scam.

I sympathize with the people that pre-ordered, but this is clearly a case of BFL incompetence, and not a scam.

[k9quaint]

I'm not clear on why people say that BFL is a scam. I guess their definition of scam is different from mine.

To me, a scam would be taking pre-orders without ever intending to ship anything. BFL is shipping miners, right? So, what is the scam that they are accused of?

Bernie Madoff paid dividends to his investors for 20 years. Each year, he got enough new investors to pay off the old ones.
You could take 100 orders for umbrellas, deliver 15 umbrellas, keep the money for the other 85 and disappear. That is a scam, even though you shipped something.
The scam BFL is accused of is misleading their investors into loaning BFL money in return for a small possibility of receiving a product in return.

[Bitcoinorama]

I'm not clear on why people say that BFL is a scam. I guess their definition of "scam" is different from mine, or perhaps I am missing something.

To me, a scam would be taking pre-orders without ever intending to ship anything. BFL is shipping miners, right? So, what is the scam?

I don't think the fact that they are shipping 8 months late is a scam, either. I doubt they intended for the delay to be this long. Without intention, how can there be fraud? No fraud, no scam.

I sympathize with the people that pre-ordered, but this is clearly a case of BFL incompetence, and not a scam.

Intent to deceive. The "two weeks^TM" was enough alone.

Personally any company that is caught being dishonest, I don't touch with a barge pole.

[trichome]

I'm not clear on why people say that BFL is a scam. I guess their definition of "scam" is different from mine, or perhaps I am missing something.

To me, a scam would be taking pre-orders without ever intending to ship anything. BFL is shipping miners, right? So, what is the scam?

I don't think the fact that they are shipping 8 months late is a scam, either. I doubt they intended for the delay to be this long. Without intention, how can there be fraud? No fraud, no scam.

I sympathize with the people that pre-ordered, but this is clearly a case of BFL incompetence, and not a scam.

I don't even know how to respond to this... Lies of lies on lies does not build a good foundation. And they are barely shipping a product that is not certified UL or FCC, that was/is funded by pre orders.  

Stealing from someone and operating a Ponzi scheme is illegal and you should and hopefully goto jail for it.  Many of the same things they are doing is ILLEGAL and they should and hopefully goto jail for them.

[trichome]

I just said the first thing that came to mind, some thing on the news about to many people in jail for heroin use, bad example i edited it.  I smoke weed was a bad reference.

[odolvlobo]

You could take 100 orders for umbrellas, deliver 15 umbrellas, keep the money for the other 85 and disappear. That is a scam, even though you shipped something.

They haven't disappeared.

The scam BFL is accused of is misleading their investors into loaning BFL money in return for a small possibility of receiving a product in return.

There was no misleading. What did you think they were going to do with the pre-order money? Do you think all mining hardware companies are scams? They are all taking pre-orders.

Lies of lies on lies does not build a good foundation. And they are barely shipping a product that is not certified UL or FCC, that was/is funded by pre orders. 

Not building a good foundation or not getting it UL or FCC certified does not make it a scam.

Buying and smoking heroin is illegal and you should and hopefully goto jail for it.  Many of the things they are doing is ILLEGAL and they should and hopefully goto jail for them.

Buying and smoking heroin is not a scam.

I think callking BFL a scam might make people feel better, but it is a mistake if you want to try to resolve the situation.

[Bitcoinorama]

I just said the first thing that came to mind, some thing on the news about to many people in jail for heroin use, bad example i edited it.  I smoke weed was a bad reference.

I gathered. Your name. Lol.

[Bitcoinorama]

You could take 100 orders for umbrellas, deliver 15 umbrellas, keep the money for the other 85 and disappear. That is a scam, even though you shipped something.

They haven't disappeared.

The scam BFL is accused of is misleading their investors into loaning BFL money in return for a small possibility of receiving a product in return.

There was no misleading. What did you think they were going to do with the pre-order money? Do you think all mining hardware companies are scams? They are all taking pre-orders.

Lies of lies on lies does not build a good foundation. And they are barely shipping a product that is not certified UL or FCC, that was/is funded by pre orders.  

Not building a good foundation or not getting it UL or FCC certified does not make it a scam.

Buying and smoking heroin is illegal and you should and hopefully goto jail for it.  Many of the things they are doing is ILLEGAL and they should and hopefully goto jail for them.

Buying and smoking heroin is not a scam.

I think callking BFL a scam might make people feel better, but it is a mistake if you want to try to resolve the situation.

Fraud is an act of wanton deception. Herein stating "two weeks^TM" knowing full well that date is impossible to commit to, is to wantonly deceive. Stating 'two weeks^TM" repetitively, knowingly deceiving each time, over the course of several months is sociopathic. Fact.


From Blacks Law Dictionary:

Fraud: An intentional perversion of the truth for the purpose of inducing another in reliance upon it to part with some valuable thing or to surrender a legal right; a false representation of a matter of fact, whether by words ot conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of that which should have been disclosed, which deceives and is intended to deceive another so that he shall act upon it to his legal inquiry; anything calculated to deceive, whether by a single act or combination, or by suppression of truth, or suggestion of what is false, whether it be by direct falsehood or innuendo, by speech or silence, word of mouth, or look or gesture; fraud comprises all acts, omissions, and concealments involving a branch of legal or equitable duty and resulting in damage to another.

From Dictionary.com:

so·ci·o·path  [soh-see-uh-path, soh-shee-]  Show IPA
noun Psychiatry.
a person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial, often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.

Origin:
1940–45; socio- + -path

Related forms
so·ci·o·path·ic, adjective

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sociopathic

[trichome]

Please remove the heroin use comparison from quotes, just used the first thing that came to mind and it obviously was wrong.  I meant a crime(s) that you should goto jail for.

[Flying Hellfish]

I'm not clear on why people say that BFL is a scam. I guess their definition of "scam" is different from mine, or perhaps I am missing something.

To me, a scam would be taking pre-orders without ever intending to ship anything. BFL is shipping miners, right? So, what is the scam?

I don't think the fact that they are shipping 8 months late is a scam, either. I doubt they intended for the delay to be this long. Without intention, how can there be fraud? No fraud, no scam.

I sympathize with the people that pre-ordered, but this is clearly a case of BFL incompetence, and not a scam.

BFL is breaking federal regulations by not allowing customers to cancel their orders before they ship their product.  They are also breaking federal regulations by not telling their customers that they have the right to cancel at any time before they ship their units and in fact BFL is telling their customers the exact opposite stating refunds will be refused.

BFL doesn't understand the legal difference between an order and a sale and are using false language to illegally hold customer funds that want it back.  Basically they are trying to get the uninformed to roll over and give up on trying for a refund by stating "All Sales are Final".

BFL is a scam rest assured, delivering a small percentage of units to a small percentage of customers doesn't automatically disqualify all the other relevant facts.

[trichome]

I'm not clear on why people say that BFL is a scam. I guess their definition of "scam" is different from mine, or perhaps I am missing something.

To me, a scam would be taking pre-orders without ever intending to ship anything. BFL is shipping miners, right? So, what is the scam?

I don't think the fact that they are shipping 8 months late is a scam, either. I doubt they intended for the delay to be this long. Without intention, how can there be fraud? No fraud, no scam.

I sympathize with the people that pre-ordered, but this is clearly a case of BFL incompetence, and not a scam.

BFL is breaking federal regulations by not allowing customers to cancel their orders before they ship their product.  They are also breaking federal regulations by not telling their customers that they have the right to cancel at any time before they ship their units and in fact BFL is telling their customers the exact opposite stating refunds will be refused.

BFL doesn't understand the legal difference between an order and a sale and are using false language to illegally hold customer funds that want it back.  Basically they are trying to get the uninformed to roll over and give up on trying for a refund by stating "All Sales are Final".

BFL is a scam rest assured, delivering a small percentage of units to a small percentage of customers doesn't automatically disqualify all the other relevant facts.

Thanks Hellfish summed up everything I wanted to say but better and faster then i ever could.  Some people got their money out from Madoff for example and other schemes also but the majority does not.

And Bitcoinorama When i read that definition all i could think of was Josh Zerlan's Posts.

[Bitcoinorama]

I'm not clear on why people say that BFL is a scam. I guess their definition of "scam" is different from mine, or perhaps I am missing something.

To me, a scam would be taking pre-orders without ever intending to ship anything. BFL is shipping miners, right? So, what is the scam?

I don't think the fact that they are shipping 8 months late is a scam, either. I doubt they intended for the delay to be this long. Without intention, how can there be fraud? No fraud, no scam.

I sympathize with the people that pre-ordered, but this is clearly a case of BFL incompetence, and not a scam.

BFL is breaking federal regulations by not allowing customers to cancel their orders before they ship their product.  They are also breaking federal regulations by not telling their customers that they have the right to cancel at any time before they ship their units and in fact BFL is telling their customers the exact opposite stating refunds will be refused.

BFL doesn't understand the legal difference between an order and a sale and are using false language to illegally hold customer funds that want it back.  Basically they are trying to get the uninformed to roll over and give up on trying for a refund by stating "All Sales are Final".

BFL is a scam rest assured, delivering a small percentage of units to a small percentage of customers doesn't automatically disqualify all the other relevant facts.

Thanks Hellfish summed up everything I wanted to say but better and faster then i ever could.  Some people got their money out from Madoff for example and other schemes also but the majority does not.

And Bitcoinorama When i read that definition all i could think of was Josh Zerlan's Posts.

Oh it's not just limited to Butterfly Labs, other companies behaviour on this forum; both current, and past, are equally as deplorable, knowingly promising you statements they cannot deliver on. Read between their lines.

[Hfleer]

I'm not clear on why people say that BFL is a scam. I guess their definition of scam is different from mine.

To me, a scam would be taking pre-orders without ever intending to ship anything. BFL is shipping miners, right? So, what is the scam that they are accused of?

Bernie Madoff paid dividends to his investors for 20 years. Each year, he got enough new investors to pay off the old ones.
You could take 100 orders for umbrellas, deliver 15 umbrellas, keep the money for the other 85 and disappear. That is a scam, even though you shipped something.
The scam BFL is accused of is misleading their investors into loaning BFL money in return for a small possibility of receiving a product in return.

Sad that this has to be explained even.  Yea, if they scam 9 customers and deliver for the tenth, it's still a scam. Who would've thought.  If they promise a delivery date and especially with an item whose value is dependent on how soon it arrives same thing.

[odolvlobo]

BFL is breaking federal regulations by not allowing customers to cancel their orders before they ship their product.  They are also breaking federal regulations by not telling their customers that they have the right to cancel at any time before they ship their units and in fact BFL is telling their customers the exact opposite stating refunds will be refused.

I agree, but breaking federal regulations doesn't make it a scam. Think about the people breaking federal and/or state regulations by trading bitcoins. Are they also scams?

BFL doesn't understand the legal difference between an order and a sale and are using false language to illegally hold customer funds that want it back.  Basically they are trying to get the uninformed to roll over and give up on trying for a refund by stating "All Sales are Final".

I agree, but that is not a scam.

BFL is a scam rest assured, delivering a small percentage of units to a small percentage of customers doesn't automatically disqualify all the other relevant facts.

It also doesn't automatically make it a scam.

I think the only realistic example presented so far is the "two weeks^TM" thing, possibly trying to encourage more people to place orders knowing that they couldn't meet deadlines.

Anyway, this is turning into another BFL hate thread, and I certainly don't want to defend BFL. I'm kind of surprised that various regulators and law enforcement agencies haven't come down on them for breaking consumer laws I wonder if it is because people are screaming "scam!" and "ponzi scheme!".

 So, for anyone else that has an example of why they consider BFL to be a scam, my response is "That may be true, but that doesn't make it a scam."

[SirWizz]

^ You know, every single Ponzi scheme (when they run out of money), makes the same point - we are continuing to make payments/ship/etc., therefore we are not a scam/Ponzi/pyramid scheme. So forgive me if I don't care for your comments defending a business that looks very much like a scam right now.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I just bumped my "Do you trust BFL" POLL. Thanks, OP!

[odolvlobo]

You know, every single Ponzi scheme (when they run out of money), makes the same point - we are continuing to make payments/ship/etc., ...

You have a very broad definition of "Ponzi scheme". There is no investment here. The customers are not expecting earnings and getting back portions of their deposits instead. Sorry, it's not a Ponzi scheme, either.

[fcmatt]

You know, every single Ponzi scheme (when they run out of money), makes the same point - we are continuing to make payments/ship/etc., ...

You have a very broad definition of "Ponzi scheme". There is no investment here. The customers are not expecting earnings and getting back portions of their deposits instead. Sorry, it's not a Ponzi scheme, either.

Then what is it called? Fraud?