How is BTC different than STOCKS if it is so manipulative??

[btcwish1]

Hi friends,

what a roller coaster ride it was this week!

We know, when people buy bitcoins the price rise and when people sell price drops. There is no other factor here.

So, what we have seen is group of large investors ( 'whales')  are manipulating the whole BTC market by simply investing all together and rising the price and then suddenly starts selling and so BTC crashes.  When BTC crashes this same 'whales' again buy them in low price and again sell them high and make BTC crashes!! And the circle continues...

If BTC or any other crypto can be manipulated so easily just by group of whales then how is it any different than any other STOCKS/SHARES ? where company shows fake profits and raise the stock price and later claim bankruptcy etc..

Since BTC is not regulated there is hell lot more chance of manipulation by the group of whales..  is it not??

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[btcwish1]

I just want to know your opinion about the manipulation part of the BTC. Is it really that simple to manipulate the price of BTC??

[krishnapramod]

It's a free unregulated market, isn't? Lacks liquidity, maturity, and on top of that newbies who don't even know fundamentals invest without a second thought and when there is a slight dip panic and sell. Is expecting the price would forever increase part of manipulation or weak hands selling at first sign of dip manipulation? More like free market in play, price discovery mechanism. Not saying manipulation isn't happening, there have been instances of insider trading, spoofing, fraudulent activity reported, and yeah since the concentration of Bitcoin wealth is centralized, whales can manipulate and compared to other cryptos, it's not really that simple. I don't think those who are holding on to their Bitcoin are much concerned about market manipulation. Once there is bigger liquidity and investments are made more on the basis of fundamentals rather than FOMO, whales or other means of manipulation wouldn't have significant impact on the market.

[FrueGreads]

Right now you are right on what you are saying, and as a trading asset I would say bitcoin is even easier to be manipulated than some stocks because it has less liquidity. The thing is, bitcoin is not suppose to be just a trading asset. It's supposed to be a currency and a way of payments. How will only see this volatility decrease when we get main adoption. Even these whales, with all of their money, can't compete with a worlds economy. So if people are using it to buy and sell stuff, there will be huge liquidity in the market, and it won't be possible to use these "market tricks".

When will this happen? I would say that we need the LN first of course, and that is happening soon I hope.
Check this thread with some new related to LN
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2784564.msg28470853#msg28470853

[davis196]

If bitcoin price can be manipulated so easy by the whales,why bitcoin futures trading has been approved by the Chicago Exchange?I think that the recent price crash was because of lots of FUD that trigered panic selling across the small traders.The big whales have nothing to do with this.By the way,stock price manipulation is illegal and you shouldn`t compare it with crypto price manipulation.

[babyshaun]

whales groups are really paying for bitcoin price manipulation as it really is the most violent strategy but we can not do it because it is trading strategy. All we can do is catch up with the flow of the market today.
Pump amd dump is opportunity.
Raised the price is opportunity.
Bloody market is opportunity also.

[Raymonds]

Indeed, I also think that most of the BTC now concentrated in the hands of a few people, so the price of the currency could suffer some of the so-called banker manipulation, so for encryption of money market is not a good thing.

[electronicash]

If bitcoin price can be manipulated so easy by the whales,why bitcoin futures trading has been approved by the Chicago Exchange?I think that the recent price crash was because of lots of FUD that trigered panic selling across the small traders.The big whales have nothing to do with this.By the way,stock price manipulation is illegal and you shouldn`t compare it with crypto price manipulation.

no difference but blockchain matters. if the technology works well with transparency then it should be better than the centralized market. although a lot of us can almost say btc is manipulated, the price will always go up in the end. you can either sell your btc for good or you can go along and profit when price once again reach its ATH.

[jseverson]

Do you have any proof though? I know an article came up about Mt. Gox being able to manipulate the market, but it handled around 85% of Bitcoin transactions at its peak. None of the current exchanges even come close to that.

I'm not saying that this doesn't happen, just that there hasn't been any proof that it has. I'm fairly sure it's going to be a lot harder for them than Mt. Gox, not to mention that with the current prices, it's going to be quite a gamble.

[cougarcxt]

market manipulation will increase in my opinion now that futures exist.

you now have a group of wall st investors that have an interest in manipulating the market to fit their futures, they have access to large amounts of money and can buy actual bitcoin to hedge their shorts or buy big sell small if they want the market to go the other way.

there are already reports of this happening during this correction.

bitcoin is now their plaything. the fundamentals will not even come into it. just another way to profit from the ignorance of retail investors and those that hodl due to their belief in the technology.

[Reatim]

Hi friends,

what a roller coaster ride it was this week!

We know, when people buy bitcoins the price rise and when people sell price drops. There is no other factor here.

So, what we have seen is group of large investors ( 'whales')  are manipulating the whole BTC market by simply investing all together and rising the price and then suddenly starts selling and so BTC crashes.  When BTC crashes this same 'whales' again buy them in low price and again sell them high and make BTC crashes!! And the circle continues...

If BTC or any other crypto can be manipulated so easily just by group of whales then how is it any different than any other STOCKS/SHARES ? where company shows fake profits and raise the stock price and later claim bankruptcy etc..

Since BTC is not regulated there is hell lot more chance of manipulation by the group of whales..  is it not??

I really believed that there are whales that can manipulate the whole price of bitcoin and swayed it on their favors. But I can't find anyone who are willing to come up and admit that they have a hand on every downtrend that we have seen in the past. I also doubt that they really cooperate with one another, do they actually speak to one another just like a Pump-and-Dump group?

Also the market is getting bigger, more whales who used financial institutions as front to buy thousands of bitcoin. So its really hard to imagine every single one of them conniving to pull the market to its knees.

I know that Wall Street big shots are trying to enter the picture, they could manipulate it or not. But unless we have some basis around it, I wouldn't think that there are serious manipulations, in my honest opinion.

[henriquelb]

Are you seriously trying to compare bitcoin with stocks? Let me tell you that you are a dumbass mate, and no, bitcoin is highly manipulated because the big whales are always trying to make at much profit as they can, why do you think that they are always trying to make the price go down to buy later?

[alyssa85]

Bitcoin is still pretty small, it's market cap is smaller than Apple's.

The volatility won't go away until it is much bigger. The more investors, the more money at play, the harder it is for any one person to manipulate it. But we are some time away from that.

[Murloc]

It's a free unregulated market, isn't?

Sure. But it is still too sensitive to all kinds of news that come from government regulators. I'm not really sure what is better at the exact moment. More clerified "rules" will bring more confidence to the market but I'm sure it will be fine in a long term.

So, what we have seen is group of large investors ( 'whales')  are manipulating the whole BTC market by simply investing all together and rising the price and then suddenly starts selling and so BTC crashes.  When BTC crashes this same 'whales' again buy them in low price and again sell them high and make BTC crashes!! And the circle continues...

The theory about whales might be real but as everyone else I would like to see some proofs. It is hard to hide such a huge operations with BTC while everyone can browse all buy / sell orders on exchanges. So to make a hidden dump those guys have to operate with thousands of accounts  with all the KYC stuff.

[YuginKadoya]

In my opinion the manipulation part in the perspective of an average investor and earner of bitcoin it is pretty hard to manipulate the market of bitcoin but in the perspective of all whales this is too easy for them, Cryptocurrency market can be very manipulative sometimes but not all the time they will get the rhythm on controlling its market well we can see that in the stock market every time there is unbalance with the market there will always be a stock that will pump and a stock that will sure dip.

[coinadon]

I do not understand much about it because I am not a stock trader

but there is a group that claims to be a crypto whale that often manipulates the price for their benefit.

I also often wonder if rumors ' a small part of the way whales work to manipulate prices?

[goaldigger]

Big companies can have a great effect on stocks manipulation because like what you have said , they can require a high price of stock even they are nearly bunkrupt. But this are just a portion affecting on the bitcoins price. Ive read on a different thread where a futures contract can also be a part. It can also because there are almost 80% of the bitcoin being mined.

[richardsNY]

The volatility won't go away until it is much bigger. The more investors, the more money at play, the harder it is for any one person to manipulate it. But we are some time away from that.

Volatility will never go away if nothing changes, even not with much and much more investors on board. In current days there is more money involved in this market than ever before, and did that tame Bitcoin? Nope. The main point of importance is that as long as we work with different markets handling different prices due to the higher demand in a certain part of the world, this volatility won't stop. On top of that, stock markets have one major thing in common, and that's the fact that they offer 1 global order book, where in this market there are many many order books. It severely limits the overall liquidity, and thus a major dump on one exchange will always manage to tank that specific market down with 10-20% on average.

[European Central Bank]

crypto is much much worse than any stock. there are no laws controlling trading, a whole lot of obfuscation and lies and millions of very stupid and greedy people. if you don't like it then leave because it ain't improving any time soon.

[TERA2]

How is bitcoin different from stocks:
-decentralized
-fixed supply - no sudden dilution
-numerous exchanges with different price, books, liquidity
-much much more volume
-much more volatility
-not regulated
-price movements tend to trend instead of having instant movements on news like stocks - because it isnt locked down by banks and professional traders yet
-difficult to short
-no 'book value' that can be calculated from assets, earnings, etc - completely speculative
-24/7 markets worldwide
-free instant market data including full L2 with robust presentation tools for free
-can trade different coins directly with eachother without selling and buying for cash
-can transfer and settle coins between different people instantly
-can hold coins off of exchanges
-cannot be halted, confiscated, or seized by an authority if held off an exchange
-no ownership in a company
-no dividends (except forks)
-coins can be stolen or lost into a void (reducing supply) if sent to the wrong address or the key is lost

Bitcoin is now $200bn+ and more difficult to manipulate. You might be able to manipulate one exchange but then the rest might not follow. Little altcoins can definitely be manipulated. Ive seen price movements and breakouts in little alts triggered simply by me placing a large order (which I intended to buy of course). It's kind of like poker where the bigger your stack gets the more successful you are.

[Enjel]

How is bitcoin different from stocks:
-decentralized
-fixed supply - no sudden dilution
-numerous exchanges with different price, books, liquidity
-much much more volume
-much more volatility
-not regulated
-price movements tend to trend instead of having instant movements on news like stocks - because it isnt locked down by banks and professional traders yet
-difficult to short
-no 'book value' that can be calculated from assets, earnings, etc - completely speculative
-24/7 markets worldwide
-free instant market data including full L2 with robust presentation tools for free
-can trade different coins directly with eachother without selling and buying for cash
-can transfer and settle coins between different people instantly
-can hold coins off of exchanges
-cannot be halted, confiscated, or seized by an authority if held off an exchange
-no ownership in a company
-no dividends (except forks)
-coins can be stolen or lost into a void (reducing supply) if sent to the wrong address or the key is lost

Bitcoin is now $200bn+ and more difficult to manipulate. You might be able to manipulate one exchange but then the rest might not follow. Little altcoins can definitely be manipulated. Ive seen price movements and breakouts in little alts triggered simply by me placing a large order (which I intended to buy of course). It's kind of like poker where the bigger your stack gets the more successful you are.

If you ever intend to use part of your 10000% profits vs. Bitcoin to trigger a breakout in a small alt, I invite you to consider Oyster (PRL).

[aardvark15]

Hi friends,

what a roller coaster ride it was this week!

We know, when people buy bitcoins the price rise and when people sell price drops. There is no other factor here.

So, what we have seen is group of large investors ( 'whales')  are manipulating the whole BTC market by simply investing all together and rising the price and then suddenly starts selling and so BTC crashes.  When BTC crashes this same 'whales' again buy them in low price and again sell them high and make BTC crashes!! And the circle continues...

If BTC or any other crypto can be manipulated so easily just by group of whales then how is it any different than any other STOCKS/SHARES ? where company shows fake profits and raise the stock price and later claim bankruptcy etc..

Since BTC is not regulated there is hell lot more chance of manipulation by the group of whales..  is it not??

There are a lot of similarities to the stock market. It seems that investors are influencing the price of cryptocurrencies regardless of how good a cryptocurrency actually is. People are putting huge amounts of money in to coins just because they want to jump on the bandwagon.

What we will do see is that some coins will survive while others will not as the really good coins move to the top.

[vanish9]

OF COURSE that it is easy, then why do you think that it is full of whales who are always doing whatever they want in order to earn more money?

Because they could bought tons of bitcoins before, and now they have the right to do whatever they want, they deserve it at some point anyways.

I just want to know your opinion about the manipulation part of the BTC. Is it really that simple to manipulate the price of BTC??

[Silberman]

Hi friends,

what a roller coaster ride it was this week!

We know, when people buy bitcoins the price rise and when people sell price drops. There is no other factor here.

So, what we have seen is group of large investors ( 'whales')  are manipulating the whole BTC market by simply investing all together and rising the price and then suddenly starts selling and so BTC crashes.  When BTC crashes this same 'whales' again buy them in low price and again sell them high and make BTC crashes!! And the circle continues...

If BTC or any other crypto can be manipulated so easily just by group of whales then how is it any different than any other STOCKS/SHARES ? where company shows fake profits and raise the stock price and later claim bankruptcy etc..

Since BTC is not regulated there is hell lot more chance of manipulation by the group of whales..  is it not??

When seen in that light bitcoin is no different than stocks in fact we could say it is even worse, in the traditional markets there is regulation, not as much as we would like but there is some, in the bitcoin market there is almost no regulation and even if there was a set of laws to rule over the bitcoin market many whales will probably not follow the rules, so you seem to be correct in your conclusion.

[EdenHazard]

Are you seriously trying to compare bitcoin with stocks? Let me tell you that you are a dumbass mate, and no, bitcoin is highly manipulated because the big whales are always trying to make at much profit as they can, why do you think that they are always trying to make the price go down to buy later?

why? they have a lot of bitcoin and waiting for the ATH to sell it all .

every huge selling affected global market and it is leading into panic selling . they have got profit and the market crash because of their action , just th meatier of time for them to buy back cheaper and pump/dump there feel like scamming for me .

[Neconic]

Of course that was manipulation, but if the sharks will continue to manipulate the market cryptocurrency, then many will simply stop believing and will desert this topic, and that's not profitable for anyone.

[Torque]

If BTC or any other crypto can be manipulated so easily just by group of whales then how is it any different than any other STOCKS/SHARES ? where company shows fake profits and raise the stock price and later claim bankruptcy etc..

Since BTC is not regulated there is hell lot more chance of manipulation by the group of whales..  is it not??

Nope. The stock market is pure fraud:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2098580.msg21161390#msg21161390

[mega]

Bitcoin has took attention of public and also increasing day by,as its price skyrocketed tapped into public greed.It is created by strong community of technology which attracts the investors.
Bitcoin itself regulator authority  and its market dominated by big players its holders are highly motivated,More features and global access attract the investor and rush of investors results the manipulate the prices.

[JC btc]

Bitcoin has took attention of public and also increasing day by,as its price skyrocketed tapped into public greed.It is created by strong community of technology which attracts the investors.
Bitcoin itself regulator authority  and its market dominated by big players its holders are highly motivated,More features and global access attract the investor and rush of investors results the manipulate the prices.

For me, they can both easily manipulate its price and I know that in the reality it has been happening, especially in bitcoin wherein a lot of big waves are buying bitcoin and when it reaches the amount that they want they suddenly withdrawing the funds they have, but it is okay since it is one of their strategy and we cannot let them stop.