MtGox is not transferring funds - Are they scamming us?

[zaibatsu1]

Hi all,

I am new to the forum but not new to BTC. I have had a grip of coins for a while and have 'been around' so to speak. I enjoyed Bitcoin2013 and had good time hanging out with some of the 'leaders' in the space. Enough bragging - just trying to qualify myself a little.

I want to bring to the board something that I feel is very serious.

MtGox is not making payments anymore. I have wanted to withdraw USD$12,500 2 months ago (since around June 20th) but they will not ransfer my money. They will not give me an estimated time, they will not tell where I am in line, they keep pointing to these very amateurish press releases about how they are 'upgrading' their systems or they have a new trade engine called 'midas'. How arrogant is that?

They have been lying and lying to me. They have been lying to the general public. They could very well be a Bernie Madoff in the making. They could be like FullTilt Poker - absconding with account funds.

I was actually thinking about going to Japan and just wait in their lobby until they paid me. I was wondering what I would go through if I had to withdraw $50K or $100K....  I feel that MtGox has *REALLY* hurt Bitcoin in a serious way and is continuing to hurt bitcoin by perpetuating this fraud.

*IF* they were more honest and upfront with me I would have transferred the coin to our Slovene friends at Bitstamp and cashed out there but, this is a little bit more than just getting the $12,500, this really has more to do with testing this firm for PROFESSIONALISM than anything else. Can they REALLY handle institutional investors? Absolutely not. And we know this from their 'meltdown' earlier in this year when they 'became the victim of their own success'.  Another super arrogant and amateurish press release.  It wasnt THEIR success but bitcoin's success. And adding tens of thousands of accounts a day dstroyed the primary purpose of what an exchange is SUPPOSED to do: maintain orderly liquidity.  Allowing tens of thousands of people to trade 0.00001 BTC and jamming up the system created their own DDOS attack BY THEIR OWN ACCOUNT HOLDERS!!  I lost 40% of my holding on MtGox that day when it took over an hour to execute a market order sell. Once the order was placed and the delay was realized there was no retract. The system was jammed up and there was no turning back - 40% haircut. 

Anyway, back to my MAIN point here. Has anyone been able to cash out on MtGox?  Do they ACTUALLY make wire transfers? If you have been successful, How long does it take?

This is super unprofessional. They will not attract institutional investors into their exchange...

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[jeannie]

Their USA bank account was seized, I guess that is why there are delays, but from what I see, they are trying to get back to normal by following the financial rules in the USA.   

[zaibatsu1]

Hi,

Thanks for the response. Yes, I saw that seizure but that was before their press releases about resuming normal transfers. Also, I beleive you can still make the transfer from their Japanese bank as well.

My main complaint is lack of transparency. Tell the truth. Be honest.

I am not getting ANY of that from them.  If someone says 2 weeks. I will wait 2 weeks but if in fact it is 4 weeks then I will complain. Why? Because they should have told me 4 weeks instead of 2 weeks. If they don't know, then they should say they don't know.

Transparency is key here. Honesty is key here.

My next steps will be reporting to the police in Japan for financial crimes. So maybe they get in trouble with Japanese laws soon...

-Z

[fcmatt]

Hi,

Thanks for the response. Yes, I saw that seizure but that was before their press releases about resuming normal transfers. Also, I beleive you can still make the transfer from their Japanese bank as well.

My main complaint is lack of transparency. Tell the truth. Be honest.

I am not getting ANY of that from them.  If someone says 2 weeks. I will wait 2 weeks but if in fact it is 4 weeks then I will complain. Why? Because they should have told me 4 weeks instead of 2 weeks. If they don't know, then they should say they don't know.

Transparency is key here. Honesty is key here.

My next steps will be reporting to the police in Japan for financial crimes. So maybe they get in trouble with Japanese laws soon...

-Z

Once you have been around bitcoin long enough you realize 1 out of 10 are honest biz or person.

[zaibatsu1]

Hi fcmatt,

Thanks for your response. I was just assuming MtGox *was* honest and *was* professional.  They are *STILL* the market leaders with nearly $61million in USD trading volume over the last 30 days.

http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/

It is absurd that they still exist if in fact they are not making payouts.

Again, my main point is about honesty and transparency. If only they were honest with their account holders about what was going on rather than concocting BS to spin us. Their PR is remedial at best...

-zaibatsu

[Ricochet]

I do not know very much about the situation with MtGox withdrawals.  However, I do notice that there is almost a $20 difference in the Bitcoin price between MtGox and the others (such as BitStamp or BTC-E).  This means that everyone who wants their USD has given up trying to get it directly from MtGox, so they're paying a 20% premium to get BTC that can be transferred to another exchange.  Just something to think about.

[fcmatt]

Hi fcmatt,

Thanks for your response. I was just assuming MtGox *was* honest and *was* professional.  They are *STILL* the market leaders with nearly $61million in USD trading volume over the last 30 days.

http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/

It is absurd that they still exist if in fact they are not making payouts.

Again, my main point is about honesty and transparency. If only they were honest with their account holders about what was going on rather than concocting BS to spin us. Their PR is remedial at best...

-zaibatsu

Magictux (whatever the nick is for the guy who ran mtgox) used to be outspoken and up front. Now he hides and does not care.
He has public relations now to inform us. I imagine if ppl knew the truth, today, mtgox would go out of business. That is not what he wants so just dont be transparent anymore. I used to use mtgox... Now i would not. I have not sold a coin for usd in months anywhere. I am waiting for the dust to settle to determine who may be worthy to trust.

[zaibatsu1]

Hi fcmatt,

I had a chance to spend some time with the BitStamp crew at the conference and also to spend time with them outside the conference as well. They are a class act for sure and I am happy to see that their volume is increasing.

I am also aware of several other companies setting up exchanges, in compliance with the domiciled country's laws, backed by larger entities (for good or bad - ie mainstreaming) that should come online in the next several months.

The good news would be that these entities would be bringing a new caliber of professionalism - including exchanges that can support HFT (high frequency trading), normal order types (market, limit, stop, and stop-limits), as well as fairly rapid movement of capital (provided compliance of US AML for US citizens).

Like I said, for good or for worse, these companies will come and soon one will rise in volume to set the 'quoted price' of bitcoin. I beleive once these companies come out the dust will have settled and most of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th wave bitcoiners will migrate to them due to stability, trust, and transparency.

Mister Mark Karpeles, the magic online gathering f4cknUt, most likely will run afoul, in a serious way, Japanese financial criminal laws. No use to have all that money when it gets confiscated and you are in prison for the rest of your life (like Madoff whom I had a chance to meet at his trading floor in Manhatten circa 1996 - just happy I did not get a job at his firm!!)

I could ask for my funds transfer to be nullified, the funds credited, I could then buy coin and transfer to Bitstamp, take the haircut and get my funds fairly quickly. My main point, though, is more to expose the fraud at this time if it is a fraud and to report the length of time it has taken for payment.

It is rather amusing to see this unfold. I also wouldn't mind going back to Japan as I have not visited with my commodity trading counterparties in the last year. I also wouldnt mind filing the complaint in person to the appropriate authorities.

[mrnejc]

Well, I can confirm that they are in fact doing (some) SEPA transfers to EU, but it is a strange one ...

day 1)
I have sold some BTC there and gone to withdraw about 350 €.

day 3)
sold some more, done withdrawal ~1000 €.
first transaction was executed and € landed in my bank account

day 4)
I mention to friend1 that I got paid and that it looks OK
friend1 sells and does withdrawal (~600 €)
fiend1 tells friend2, he also sells and does withdrawal (~1000 €)
I sold some more, done withdrawal ~1000 €.

today - day 11)
friend1 & friend2 get money on their bank accounts
my founds from day 3 / 4 are still pending

At first I thought that it was smaller amount that helped them to fill daily quota and was therefore so fast, but friend2 getting his 1000 € before me, even though my transaction is there longer, invalidated that theory. 
It looks like they expedite 1st withdrawal to give you some confidence boost (to bring in more business?) but then they slow it down ... 

[b!z]

sell the  USD for btc and withdraw to anoher exchange. gox is dead.

[pie3636]

Seriously, everyone are getting angry against mtgox so easily... Really, this site still works if you withdraw in another currency (I'm thinking about European users). Do you really think it is dead ? Then, you should check the volume bars on mtgox compared to bistamp and the other sites. Mtgox volume has not decreased over the last weeks. What does it mean ? It mean that the rich people are still using mtgox. Why would they do that if it was dead ? I used mtgox for the whole summer and made a real lot of money on it. Take the other sites, and you'll reach a total volume which is below 25% of mtgox's one. So, no, mtgox is not dead, it is not a scam.

[monbux]

Hi,

Thanks for the response. Yes, I saw that seizure but that was before their press releases about resuming normal transfers. Also, I beleive you can still make the transfer from their Japanese bank as well.

My main complaint is lack of transparency. Tell the truth. Be honest.

I am not getting ANY of that from them.  If someone says 2 weeks. I will wait 2 weeks but if in fact it is 4 weeks then I will complain. Why? Because they should have told me 4 weeks instead of 2 weeks. If they don't know, then they should say they don't know.

Transparency is key here. Honesty is key here.

My next steps will be reporting to the police in Japan for financial crimes. So maybe they get in trouble with Japanese laws soon...

-Z

Then pretend they said 2 years,  We're all happy and you will walk away with your money - eventually.

[mastaZZ]

I'm curious what happend to their USA customers after seizure. Did they lose money just like that? Kinda scary.

[RodeoX]

I am guessing a bit here, but I wonder about the size of your withdrawal.  Moving anything over 10K internationally is subject to a whole slew of laws. My understanding is that Gox now has to comply with KYC and AML regulation. They may need things like your fingerprints and photo ID's before they are able to transfer money.

[zaibatsu1]

Hi RodeoX,
Thank you for your reply.

Many, many months ago I completed all AML requirements with MtGox - Corporate Articles, Passport Copy, etc...

I have a $10K daily withdraw limit and $50K aggregate per month.

Just FYI about the context of the situation. I do not think it is AML related.

I received response from MtGox last night - they want 5% to 'manually' process the transfer.  Since it has been 6 weeks now, I must be getting close to the front of the queue so I asked them where I was in the queue as this will help me make a better decision.

-zaibatsu

[RodeoX]

Hmmm. well it sounds like your all squared away on your side. How annoying. I would still suspect incompetence over scamming however. They have a cash cow of a business and should be quite profitable without resorting to a stealing. Not that incompetence is an excuse. 

[west77]

I would suspect that almost any company dealing in the US will face a bumpy road for the next few years until things get hammered down.  I had mentioned to a friend a few months ago that I would expect any company based in the US (and even those who are not) will be dealing with anit-terrorism laws as that seems to be the trump card lately.

I had read an article that was talking of the freedom of bitcoin- how they are not subject to taxation or any countries laws and laughed.  Anything that grows big enough to ping a law makers radar will eventually be regulated the best that they can.  The IRS has even declared the sale of gold to be a taxable event by using capital gains rules.  Anybody who did not think that the bureaucracy and the tax man would make a grab at a multi million dollar market is delusional.  Anybody who does not think they will eventually point out to a judge that you cannot have money moving across international boarders anonymously without the risk that some will end up possibly funding a terrorist has not been paying much attention to the modern tactics of western governments.

Having said that, where will the new clearing houses base themselves?  If they do business in the US they will be subject to certain laws and I do not know if I would trust a provider based in the Caribbean anyhow...

My guess would be that we can expect these types of seizures and delays in transactions until a number of court challenges have concluded, the IRS finds a way to tax them and homeland security finds a way to track them.  I would not plan on being assured of access to and easy market to transfer bitcoin to USD without some delays for awhile.

[zaibatsu1]

Good Points!

I agree that it is most likely incompetence than fraud - however we have had a very great example in recent years of a cash cow that was commingling with account holder funds. FullTilt Poker.  They ended up nearly $150 million in the hole  in account holder funds.

Another example, to a lesser extent, was Madoff but this was a fund that gave investor returns.


As with the other point,  I would say that there are plenty of boutique investment companies in the US that are in compliance with US laws,  the Patriot Act, AML's,  exchange regulatory compliance (like CFTC, NSA), other agencies (like SEC/FINRA)  that will enter the market in the next 3-12 months.

As an example, Charles Schwab, not that this firm is entering the market BUT if the Winklevii do their fund, I can invest in BTC via Schwab.  But what if Schwab setup their own storage mechanism for BTC on behalf of their clients? In this case, I could depo money into my Schwab account, once it clears, buy BTC and then have Schwab hold it for me. Now what if Schwab opened its own exchange?  Now I could depo, buy, sell, and then get cash back very, very quick.  How would MtGox compete against something like this?

Last point, yes, the US government will get involved. They will get involved like how RIAA got involved with MP3's. Then a 3rd party will come by and step in with a solution (like Apple did with MP3's). Everyone then is happy... kinda.

My guess is the 3rd Party will be the Federal Reserve.

[transakt]

Is your money tied up in the pending transfer such that you can no longer convert it back to Bitcoin and withdraw it?

Because unless you're no longer able to do exactly that, you're pretty brave and/or trusting.

Yes, you're going to take a big loss buying BTC at Gox's prices -- but the reason they are so high is precisely because nobody can get their damned money out. How do you know they'll even be in existence tomorrow, or next week, or next month ... etc? That's a lot of money to have someplace that (for all we know) could implode in the near future.

[zaibatsu1]

Hi Transakt,

Yes, you are absolutely correct. I could have just gotten BTC then sent to Bitstamp, sold off, and got my money. I spent quite a bit of time with the Bitstamp crew at and outside of the Bitcoin2013 conference when they were in San Jose. They are great guys and REALLY want them to succeed.

If I did the above I would suffer a 15% haircut because of the Gox/Bitstamp differential. This is an acceptable amount (bird in the hand or 2 birds in the bush).

However, what I am really testing is whether or not Gox is ready for prime time as they keep claiming they are.

They have a new trading engine they call 'Midas' - as if what they touch turns to gold. Mister Karpeles, please read the fable as it does not have a happy ending.  The Midas engine can do 500,000 trades a second. Wow!  My test on an HFT system was 225,000 transactions in 13.5 MICROSECONDS - so 500K trades a second is STILL REALLY SLOW!! But lets just hope that Midas will never do anything past 10 a second (or less).

They also claimed the user induced meltdown was because they were the victims of their own success (Press Release). My opinion is they were the victims of their own greed and a lack of understanding of exchanges.  The NUMBER 1 thing an exchange is to do is MAINTAIN AN ORDERLY MARKET (FAST/LIQUID).  Which they didnt. They wanted to jam as many users as possible to trade as much as possible - ie more commission. 

I have a system that alerts me to market movements. If BTC starts trading +/-5% over a particular Moving Average I choose (like 10 minutes, 1 hour, 6 hours...), I get an alert sent to my iPhone. I received an alert that day, watched the  market tank, and placed a Market Order Sell for 300ish BTC at $225. The trade happened 1 hour later at $160.  That is about a 25% haircut because they were 'the victims of their own success'.  Without going into any great details about HOW trading exchanges should operate since I would not want them to adopt any of the liquidity provisions I would mention, I would say that they are heading in the wrong direction. I did, however, share my thoughts (err... these really arent MY thoughts as much as it is just plain basic knowledge of exchanges you'd pick up on Wall Street)  with other exchanges (Bitstamp being one).

So, in summary, my TEST of the withdrawal system is something that is being watched very closely not just by myself. So far they have come up completely failing in both transparency and in being forthright(honest) with their investing public.

Like I have mentioned, they may have crossed the boundaries of financial crimes in Japan. With the subject matter in 8 or 9 figures USD, there could be some serious penalties involved. I would not be surprised if they have already filtered cash into accounts throughout the world as a means of an escape fund.

I would warn them that they aren't like the Cypriot government assessing an across the board TAX on the accounts not receive significant retribution.  (In Cyprus, the accounts were mostly owned by Russian 'businessmen') 

A wire transfer that should have been done in 2 weeks but takes 2 months is plain unprofessional.  For Gox to abscond with funds is downright dangerous for them and all who are connected with them. That is just common sense when you are handling 'stores of value' for 'Russian businessmen'.

-Zaibatsu

PS If I really wanted the money, I would cancel the withdraws, purchase coin, and transfer them to a buddy of mine who would pay me cash.  Don't be surprised if you see my plight end up in an article in an unnamed global financial media outlet