BFL could be fined $16,000 for each product the fail to ship

[btcdrak]

From the FTC website:

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

This is a VERY interesting read!!

Some of the key points:

1) after ordering, BFL had 30 days to deliver our product. If they were not able to ship in that time frame, they were to notify all customers and ask if they wanted to maintain their order. By 60 days of not shipping, they were to contact ALL customers and offer to refund their money, if they were not able to contact the customer, then they were required to refund the money.

2) They are also required to refund the money if the customer requests a refund if their product has not shipped. Note this is completely different than BFL’s policy of not refunding because “we are shipping product”.

3) It is also VERY interesting that BFL is exposing themselves to fines of $16,000 per occurrence of breaking the rules. Since they are breaking the rules for EACH and EVERY customer, this alone could be enough to break this company if people start complaining to the FTC.

Quoted from http://tarspublishing.com/butterflyrefund/

[dogie]

They couldn't even refund 50% of the customers, nevermind pay fines. Why do you think they cancelled refunds after I suggested a refund tsunami?

[bcp19]

From the FTC website:

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

This is a VERY interesting read!!

Some of the key points:

1) after ordering, BFL had 30 days to deliver our product. If they were not able to ship in that time frame, they were to notify all customers and ask if they wanted to maintain their order. By 60 days of not shipping, they were to contact ALL customers and offer to refund their money, if they were not able to contact the customer, then they were required to refund the money.

2) They are also required to refund the money if the customer requests a refund if their product has not shipped. Note this is completely different than BFL’s policy of not refunding because “we are shipping product”.

3) It is also VERY interesting that BFL is exposing themselves to fines of $16,000 per occurrence of breaking the rules. Since they are breaking the rules for EACH and EVERY customer, this alone could be enough to break this company if people start complaining to the FTC.

Quoted from http://tarspublishing.com/butterflyrefund/

Dude, I count at least 3 threads you missed posting in!

[Phinnaeus Gage]

From the FTC website:

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

This is a VERY interesting read!!

Some of the key points:

1) after ordering, BFL had 30 days to deliver our product. If they were not able to ship in that time frame, they were to notify all customers and ask if they wanted to maintain their order. By 60 days of not shipping, they were to contact ALL customers and offer to refund their money, if they were not able to contact the customer, then they were required to refund the money.

2) They are also required to refund the money if the customer requests a refund if their product has not shipped. Note this is completely different than BFL’s policy of not refunding because “we are shipping product”.

3) It is also VERY interesting that BFL is exposing themselves to fines of $16,000 per occurrence of breaking the rules. Since they are breaking the rules for EACH and EVERY customer, this alone could be enough to break this company if people start complaining to the FTC.

Quoted from http://tarspublishing.com/butterflyrefund/

Dude, I count at least 3 threads you missed posting in!

Dude, don't hold back, what were they?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

With the cutbacks in the federal budget, I'm sure the FTC wouldn't mind an exact $16,000 X 10,000 (conservatively speaking) = $160,000,000 in their coffer. If by a slim chance BFL doesn't have the full amount, the FTC could easily just take all they currently have with the rest owed.

[mrb]

From the FTC website:

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

This is a VERY interesting read!!

Some of the key points:

1) after ordering, BFL had 30 days to deliver our product. If they were not able to ship in that time frame, they were to notify all customers and ask if they wanted to maintain their order.

On that point, they did notify customers. A few months ago they sent mail to all customers and asked to log in butterflylabs.com to submit an answer as to whether they wanted to maintain the order or not.

[dogie]

From the FTC website:

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

This is a VERY interesting read!!

Some of the key points:

1) after ordering, BFL had 30 days to deliver our product. If they were not able to ship in that time frame, they were to notify all customers and ask if they wanted to maintain their order.

On that point, they did notify customers. A few months ago they sent mail to all customers and asked to log in butterflylabs.com to submit an answer as to whether they wanted to maintain the order or not.

A few months ago does not equal 30 days after preorders were not fulfilled.

[mrb]

From the FTC website:

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

This is a VERY interesting read!!

Some of the key points:

1) after ordering, BFL had 30 days to deliver our product. If they were not able to ship in that time frame, they were to notify all customers and ask if they wanted to maintain their order.

On that point, they did notify customers. A few months ago they sent mail to all customers and asked to log in butterflylabs.com to submit an answer as to whether they wanted to maintain the order or not.

A few months ago does not equal 30 days after preorders were not fulfilled.

Read the legalese. It does not say 30 days. It says 30 days or the time [the vendor] stated.

I guess one could argue that after sending the second and subsequent notices of delay, BFL interpreted customers' silence as automatic consent, when they should have automatically refunded. But any customer suing BFL for that would not be acting in good faith. Those who initiated refund requests on their own were refunded, no questions asked, and all those who stayed silent really wanted to remain in line.

[rammy2k2]

"find 16k" ? i want to find 16k too !! 

[BTCscraper]

From the FTC website:

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

This is a VERY interesting read!!

Some of the key points:

1) after ordering, BFL had 30 days to deliver our product. If they were not able to ship in that time frame, they were to notify all customers and ask if they wanted to maintain their order.

On that point, they did notify customers. A few months ago they sent mail to all customers and asked to log in butterflylabs.com to submit an answer as to whether they wanted to maintain the order or not.

A few months ago does not equal 30 days after preorders were not fulfilled.

Read the legalese. It does not say 30 days. It says 30 days or the time [the vendor] stated.

I guess one could argue that after sending the second and subsequent notices of delay, BFL interpreted customers' silence as automatic consent, when they should have automatically refunded. But any customer suing BFL for that would not be acting in good faith. Those who initiated refund requests on their own were refunded, no questions asked, and all those who stayed silent really wanted to remain in line.

The option for either party to cancel the order (and initiate a refund) is a continuing one as long as the seller has not shipped the product.

[PuertoLibre]

From the FTC website:

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

This is a VERY interesting read!!

Some of the key points:

1) after ordering, BFL had 30 days to deliver our product. If they were not able to ship in that time frame, they were to notify all customers and ask if they wanted to maintain their order.

On that point, they did notify customers. A few months ago they sent mail to all customers and asked to log in butterflylabs.com to submit an answer as to whether they wanted to maintain the order or not.

A few months ago does not equal 30 days after preorders were not fulfilled.

Read the legalese. It does not say 30 days. It says 30 days or the time [the vendor] stated.

I guess one could argue that after sending the second and subsequent notices of delay, BFL interpreted customers' silence as automatic consent, when they should have automatically refunded. But any customer suing BFL for that would not be acting in good faith. Those who initiated refund requests on their own were refunded, no questions asked, and all those who stayed silent really wanted to remain in line.

The option for either party to cancel the order (and initiate a refund) is a continuing one as long as the seller has not shipped the product.

Silence means they have to issue an automatic refund.

[Ytterbium]

So what happens if BFL is late with their monarch card? 

If people "upgrade" their orders, then it turns out the monarch is late (which it will be) won't they be entitled to a refund? 

[Unacceptable]

So what happens if BFL is late with their monarch card? 

If people "upgrade" their orders, then it turns out the monarch is late (which it will be) won't they be entitled to a refund? 

Not to worry,BFL has a contingency plan for that................

"Announcing the latest & GREATEST Miner ever!!! 14NM-Preorder NOW by upgradeing your old wore out order!!!!"

[Phinnaeus Gage]

So what happens if BFL is late with their monarch card?  

If people "upgrade" their orders, then it turns out the monarch is late (which it will be) won't they be entitled to a refund?  

Not to worry,BFL has a contingency plan for that................

"Announcing the latest & GREATEST Miner ever!!! 14NM-Preorder NOW by upgradeing your old wore out order!!!!"

And I took for granted you knew this guy named Sonny Vleisides...

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Globalfoundries-7nm-Chips-Set-for-2017-Launch-328849.shtml

We've already reported on the 14nm and 10nm plans, and how those processes will have both “pure” and hybrid variants.

Now we can safely say that the 7nm node is a sure thing for the future, or rather a goal that Globalfoundries has every intention of eventually reaching.

The report held no details on whether or not there would be both pure and hybrid versions, like with 10nm and 14nm.

It did make it clear that the processors would enter mass production by 2017 though.

If nothing else, Advanced Micro Devices is positioned to always have something new to base its APUs and CPUs on for the next half a decade.

[Flying Hellfish]

You guys should read the rule further.  BFL has received customer agreement to an "indefinite delay".  When you purchase a BFL product you agree to wait 2 months of more.  According to the mail order rule this is what a company must do if they ask for and receive an indefinite delay.  I've pointed this out in a number of threads and people seem to ignore it.  BFL IS FUCKED IF THE FTC DECIDES TO PURSUE THEM.

Not only must they offer cancellations/refunds they must provide the client a statement that they have the right to cancel the order any time until the product ships.  So BFL is not only doing the opposite of what they are supposed to, they are also further breaking the mail order rule by telling the client no refunds are possible.  They are telling the client the exact opposite of what the FTC tells them they must tell the client.

•a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship.
http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule


BFL is playing a very dangerous game ATM, IF the FTC decides to go after them, I would bet dollars to dimes BFL gets their ass handed to them on a platter.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=150803.2640

[colinistheman]

It's good to know there's some recourse and hope instead of just being screwed out of thousands of dollars.

[Bicknellski]

I am guessing that BFL hasn't read this part of the FTC guide.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

Code:

What You Must Do If You Learn You Cannot Ship on Time

When you learn that you cannot ship on time, you must decide whether you will ever be able to ship the order. 
If you decide that you cannot, you must promptly cancel the order and make a full refund.

What a First Delay Option Notice Must Say

In seeking your customer’s consent to delay, the first delay notice you provide to the customer (the "delay option" notice) must include:

a definite revised shipment date or, if unknown, a statement that you are unable to provide a revised shipment date;

a statement that, if the customer chooses not to wait, the customer can cancel the order and obtain a full and prompt refund; and

some means for the customer to choose to cancel at your expense (e.g., by providing a postage prepaid reply card or toll-free telephone number).
the following information when you cannot provide a revised shipping date:

the reason for the delay, and

a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship the merchandise.

[YipYip]

From the FTC website:

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

This is a VERY interesting read!!

Some of the key points:

1) after ordering, BFL had 30 days to deliver our product. If they were not able to ship in that time frame, they were to notify all customers and ask if they wanted to maintain their order.

On that point, they did notify customers. A few months ago they sent mail to all customers and asked to log in butterflylabs.com to submit an answer as to whether they wanted to maintain the order or not.

Good to hear the continuing PRO-BFL support from you

[btcdrak]

You guys should read the rule further.  BFL has received customer agreement to an "indefinite delay".  When you purchase a BFL product you agree to wait 2 months of more.  According to the mail order rule this is what a company must do if they ask for and receive an indefinite delay.  I've pointed this out in a number of threads and people seem to ignore it.  BFL IS FUCKED IF THE FTC DECIDES TO PURSUE THEM.

Not only must they offer cancellations/refunds they must provide the client a statement that they have the right to cancel the order any time until the product ships.  So BFL is not only doing the opposite of what they are supposed to, they are also further breaking the mail order rule by telling the client no refunds are possible.  They are telling the client the exact opposite of what the FTC tells them they must tell the client.

•a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship.
http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule


BFL is playing a very dangerous game ATM, IF the FTC decides to go after them, I would bet dollars to dimes BFL gets their ass handed to them on a platter.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=150803.2640

Right, so it's time to encourage everyone who was denied a refund to file an FTC complain now. Could someone from the US make a FAQ on how to do it so we can make it as easy as possible for everyone to file a complaint.

Let's teach BFL a lesson they wont forget. This will make big news too.

[ionstorm]

Very informative, thanks for the share, will keep this in mind if I decide to ever refund from bfl.