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Author Topic: [MUST READ] Butterfly Labs FTC complaint  (Read 9461 times)
btcdrak
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August 22, 2013, 05:43:51 PM
 #1

It's clear now that BFL are engaging in dishonest business practices.

If they were not, they would be happy to refund customers who are no longer willing to wait. We get they had manufacture/design issues, but this is no excuse for not refunding customers as required by the law.

It turns out anyone can file a complaint with the FTC, not just US based customers.  BFL could be liable for a fine of $16,000 for each violation (see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=279330.0)

File a complaint right now at https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/ - Many people have filed complaints over the last few days.

The FTC use statistical analysis to detect fraud and helps them decide who to devote time prosecuting. We already got BFL's paypal account frozen. Now let's pull out the big guns. This will either turn BFL into an honest company and provide remedy to their customers, or make them face the consequences. We need complaints in numbers, so if you have been ripped off or treated badly, we need you.

Butterfly Labs are sullying the reputation of Bitcoin. We must all stick together and help clean this mess up. Report your dissatisfaction to the the US Federal Trade Commission today at https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/ and help the entire bitcoin community.
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btcdrak
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August 22, 2013, 05:58:13 PM
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August 22, 2013, 06:03:33 PM
 #3

not sure i want the government to help, but those BFL guys sure have been dicks.

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August 22, 2013, 06:07:05 PM
 #4

 I get what you're trying to accomplish, but if they go under and can't deliver a vast majority of orders they have already taken money for, and no one ever sees their thousands of dollars again, you will have way more pissed off people than we currently do now. I am patiently waiting for my Jala, and when I get it, I am going to turn it into a FrankenJala with some more chips once obtained, look to the brighter side of things. I'm not saying I support deceptive business practice, but they are pumping out more ASICs than any company currently. Crying out loud and getting a mob to follow may not be the smartest thing to do YET. Yeah they were delayed, but hell, at least they haven't ran away to Costa Rica to start Butterfly Liberty Reserves yet ^_^

btcdrak
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August 22, 2013, 06:10:48 PM
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I get what you're trying to accomplish, but if they go under and can't deliver a vast majority of orders they have already taken money for, and no one ever sees their thousands of dollars again, you will have way more pissed off people than we currently do now. I am patiently waiting for my Jala, and when I get it, I am going to turn it into a FrankenJala with some more chips once obtained, look to the brighter side of things. I'm not saying I support deceptive business practice, but they are pumping out more ASICs than any company currently. Crying out loud and getting a mob to follow may not be the smartest thing to do YET. Yeah they were delayed, but hell, at least they haven't ran away to Costa Rica to start Butterfly Liberty Reserves yet ^_^

The VAST majority of their customers are never going to see their money back now, even if they get delivery and now there is no way out since there are no refunds. Little SC and Singles are still miles behind in the order queue. BFL wont go down but FTC pressure will make BFL behave as a responsible company from here on in.

Complaints are already being filed, looking through the forums recently, many people have taken to this last resort - because the fact is, there is no other way out now.
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August 22, 2013, 06:16:01 PM
 #6

The outcome of the FTC would be that they step in and force-run BFL in a responsible way. Not everyone can win here, but the FTC would be your best chance.

btcdrak
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August 22, 2013, 06:26:55 PM
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The outcome of the FTC would be that they step in and force-run BFL in a responsible way. Not everyone can win here, but the FTC would be your best chance.

No kidding - you can't even make this stuff up. The new BFL Monarch 600GH miner? - well it's already been delayed until February - see https://forums.butterflylabs.com/monarch-discussion/4420-what-monarch-group-order.html (BFL_Josh himself).  It was only launched a few days ago with claims it was going to be delivered in December! How many people have they now scammed into converting their existing BFL orders into a Monarch order (which cancels the previous order I might add).
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August 22, 2013, 06:28:25 PM
 #8

And why do you mo**** think this will get your miners delivered faster...
btcdrak
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August 22, 2013, 06:29:42 PM
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And why do you mo**** think this will get your miners delivered faster...

No point getting delivery now - refunds are the important thing.
crunchyferrett
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August 22, 2013, 06:30:56 PM
 #10

Oh for FUCKS sake. Just let it go already. Product is shipping. The Jaly's have already moved into 2013 (finally!) and the others aren't terribly far behind, (exception: Minirigs)

You jackass's that are still dead set on taking down BFL are just going to piss off the rest of us who are finally beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

No, I'm not a shill. I've got hardware on order, and I'm just as annoyed as the rest of you at the delays.

DON'T FUCK IT UP FOR THE REST OF US!

btcdrak
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August 22, 2013, 06:33:10 PM
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Oh for FUCKS sake. Just let it go already. Product is shipping. The Jaly's have already moved into 2013 (finally!) and the others aren't terribly far behind, (exception: Minirigs)

You jackass's that are still dead set on taking down BFL are just going to piss off the rest of us who are finally beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

No, I'm not a shill. I've got hardware on order, and I'm just as annoyed as the rest of you at the delays.

DON'T FUCK IT UP FOR THE REST OF US!

And this is why BFL make millions. Do you think you will even break even by the time you get your miner? LOL Enjoy. for the rest of us, it's called a refund.
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August 22, 2013, 06:35:45 PM
 #12

The outcome of the FTC would be that they step in and force-run BFL in a responsible way. Not everyone can win here, but the FTC would be your best chance.

No kidding - you can't even make this stuff up. The new BFL Monarch 600GH miner? - well it's already been delayed until February - see https://forums.butterflylabs.com/monarch-discussion/4420-what-monarch-group-order.html (BFL_Josh himself).  It was only launched a few days ago with claims it was going to be delivered in December! How many people have they now scammed into converting their existing BFL orders into a Monarch order (which cancels the previous order I might add).

It wasn't "launched" a few days ago, it was ANNOUNCED a few days ago. And it was clear from the beginning (to those of us who bothered to do a bit of cursory research) that it wouldn't be shipping until the current backlog of USB devices was shipped.
crunchyferrett
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August 22, 2013, 06:37:42 PM
 #13

Oh for FUCKS sake. Just let it go already. Product is shipping. The Jaly's have already moved into 2013 (finally!) and the others aren't terribly far behind, (exception: Minirigs)

You jackass's that are still dead set on taking down BFL are just going to piss off the rest of us who are finally beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

No, I'm not a shill. I've got hardware on order, and I'm just as annoyed as the rest of you at the delays.

DON'T FUCK IT UP FOR THE REST OF US!

And this is why BFL make millions. Do you think you will even break even by the time you get your miner? LOL Enjoy. for the rest of us, it's called a refund.

I will enjoy, thanks very much for your concern! A side note though.. if your plan is to have BFL hit with 16k in fines per incident, exactly where do you think your refund will be coming from?
CryptoCluster
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August 22, 2013, 06:41:43 PM
 #14

You have to remember that BFL is run by people who know how to lie and scam. If they smell big trouble coming, they will (probably) defraud all the money, and close the business. There will be absolutely NO refunds and NO hardware.

Disclaimer: I have many thousand dollars in undelivered 2012 order, and I am also pissed. But I do not see any good way out for the moment...

"The cumulative development of a medium of exchange on the free market — is the only way money can become established. ... government is powerless to create money for the economy; it can only be developed by the processes of the free market." M. N. Rothbard
aspeer
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August 22, 2013, 06:41:49 PM
 #15

if you invest in an "upcoming" (had not as of yet been released) technology you should only invest what you're comfortable losing. Research and diversification could have helped you avoid this situation as it was well known that they missed deadlines on their fpga's as well.  As far as ROI you speculated on things that cannot be guaranteed there are just too many variables to accurately calculate anything.  No believe me I'm just as ticked about them not shipping on time and I do believe that their business practices should be avoided but as with any other business, if you don't like them buy somewhere else.  I'm sorry you wrapped up so much money with them but it was stated that the devices had not been test nor proven when I ordered mine and its been as long or longer than most of the people complaining.

Just make sure in the future to do your due diligence and make sure that you don't put yourself into this situation again in the future.  You're complaints and demands just take up time that they could be using to address the real issues, such as legitimate support requests, which get lost in the flood of emails.

Oh for FUCKS sake. Just let it go already. Product is shipping. The Jaly's have already moved into 2013 (finally!) and the others aren't terribly far behind, (exception: Minirigs)

You jackass's that are still dead set on taking down BFL are just going to piss off the rest of us who are finally beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

No, I'm not a shill. I've got hardware on order, and I'm just as annoyed as the rest of you at the delays.

DON'T FUCK IT UP FOR THE REST OF US!

And this is why BFL make millions. Do you think you will even break even by the time you get your miner? LOL Enjoy. for the rest of us, it's called a refund.

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August 22, 2013, 06:43:51 PM
 #16

Since they are now processing refunds, all you need to do is ask again.  Or you can be a monumental asshole and continue the FTC pursuit.

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I embrace my inner Kool-Aid.
btcdrak
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August 22, 2013, 06:48:23 PM
 #17

Since they are now processing refunds, all you need to do is ask again.  Or you can be a monumental asshole and continue the FTC pursuit.

They are processing refunds? Says who?

If they process refunds, they have nothing to fear from the FTC. If they are honest, they have nothing to fear from the FTC. If they are engaging in dishonest business activity, they have everything to fear and anyone supporting them is just being greedy selfish idiot and their greed will consume them and many others around them. How can you support such a dishonest company? If they are honest, they have nothing to fear from the FTC.

Example: If you evade your taxes, you should fear the IRS. If you are above board, you have no problem with an IRS audit. What are you afraid of? You know deep down BFL is dishonest and you are afraid that the FTC will ruin your chances of getting a mega profit - but face facts, it ain't gonna happen. By next month possibly, their units will not ROI at all, ever. Have you seen how far behind they are with their Singles and Little SCs (and now monarchs)?

Whether you like it or not, dozens of people have already filed an FTC complaint and many many more are doing it today as we speak.
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August 22, 2013, 06:52:10 PM
 #18

Oh for FUCKS sake. Just let it go already. Product is shipping. The Jaly's have already moved into 2013 (finally!) and the others aren't terribly far behind, (exception: Minirigs)

Quote
Singles: July 4, 2012 pay date

Singles are on day 11 of 425. They're almost done with the backlog!!!

Buy & Hold
crunchyferrett
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August 22, 2013, 06:55:07 PM
 #19

Oh for FUCKS sake. Just let it go already. Product is shipping. The Jaly's have already moved into 2013 (finally!) and the others aren't terribly far behind, (exception: Minirigs)

Quote
Singles: July 4, 2012 pay date

Singles are on day 11 of 425. They're almost done with the backlog!!!

Fair enough, I stand corrected on that point.

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August 22, 2013, 06:58:22 PM
 #20

I get what you're trying to accomplish, but if they go under and can't deliver a vast majority of orders they have already taken money for, and no one ever sees their thousands of dollars again, you will have way more pissed off people than we currently do now. I am patiently waiting for my Jala, and when I get it, I am going to turn it into a FrankenJala with some more chips once obtained, look to the brighter side of things. I'm not saying I support deceptive business practice, but they are pumping out more ASICs than any company currently. Crying out loud and getting a mob to follow may not be the smartest thing to do YET. Yeah they were delayed, but hell, at least they haven't ran away to Costa Rica to start Butterfly Liberty Reserves yet ^_^

Meanwhile, Jeff Ownby is selling the Costa Rican properties once owned by Laissez Faire City of which nobody was able to locate till I found them. Johann Gevers never listed those assets in the audit, nor ever mentioned Sonny Vleisides' name, always referring to him as James Ray Houston's son.

Then again, I'm just a monumental asshole. Pay me no mind.

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