Need 30 to 60 BTC to start up yet another gambling site.

[Dabs]

Rather than post all the relevant data, let me explain in prose, what I had in mind.

I want to own and operate yet another gambling site, accepting deposits in bitcoins, and allowing withdrawals in bitcoins. What kind of gambling site? A card game. What card game? Poker.

Why not Black Jack? Too many of them out there already. It's always dealer versus player. Statistically, the house will always win in the long term, but in the short term, good players and/or lucky players can win.

Why Poker? Poker is a PvP game. It's player versus player. Just like my lotto game (see my signature link on the lotto), it gives the prize to the winner from the deposits of all other players.

Poker is a game that pits the skills and luck of players against each other.

The house can never lose. At the very least, no flop no drop. It can only lose through expenses.

Okay, so why poker? I feel I have found at least a partial solution to the question of fairness. In the bitcoin world, a term coined "Provably Fair" is being used a lot. Rather than explain here, I suggest you do a little research on it. Basically, you use the collision resistance of cryptographically secure hash functions to show to the player and the world that the game is as fair as it can get, and no cheating can be done.

It's easy enough to do for a dice game, for slots, for black jack and for any lotto or raffle game.

It's not so easy to do for a card game that does not reveal all the cards, such as poker.

I would need about 20 BTC to pay the developer to make the website and backend and maybe even the server, and....1 BTC for the domain, 1 to 2 BTC for the hosting, depending on traffic, another 10 to 20 BTC in advertising and promotions ... okay, I don't know what else I would really need.

I figure, I'm not really asking for a loan as much as an investment in this venture. You can do your own estimation of how much this will profit based on how much other similar sites are profiting, I leave that up to you. My napkin math is 6 to 10 players per table * 20 to 30 tables * 60 hands per hour * 24 hours * 25 days per month * 2% to 5% rake. All ring or cash games. That's at least 50 BTC to 100 BTC or more per month, after about 6 months to 1 year.

That's not including promotions, freerolls, tournaments and other poker things.

While this is something that has a high chance of success, this can also fail, as a business or as an investment. I am afraid to say, if this fails, (give it a 1 year time period), then I can not pay. If it succeeds, everyone who contributed financially will be proportionally rewarded.

If it succeeds, I will, of course, spend the entire day on it. Acting as customer support, and otherwise just there to assist people. A friend who runs a dice site has been consumed by it, but it has achieved what I would consider a level of success. That has a lot of bitcoins invested in it and it earns a bit already.

As reference:

as of right now 2013-08-24 Saturday 14:22 PM
Some popular bitcoin poker websites: 300 players average, 30 tables average.
Some non-bitcoin poker sites: 50,000 players, 2000 tournaments

[b!z]

What would make this better than Seals with Clubs or other poker sites, apart from the ability to prove that the game is fair?

[monbux]

What would make this better than Seals with Clubs or other poker sites, apart from the ability to prove that the game is fair?

Yes, the competitors will kick you out of the circle, sorry mate :/

[marcovaldo]

So let's resume, you want someone to invest 30 to 60 btc in an utopist project to make a gambling website?
And while you do not invest a single cent in the projet, you reserve the right to pay back nothing, if the website fails?
And even if the website generates some income, the investor will be paid 1 year later, with a percentage only? Which might be less than the invested amount of money.


Lol, good luck

[Raoul Duke]

6 to 10 players per table * 20 to 30 tables * 60 hands per hour * 24 hours * 25 days per month * 2% to 5% rake. All ring or cash games.

I think you're being overly optimistic lol But good luck finding your investor.

[Boelens]

I'd like to know what makes your site unique. I've had idea's for gambling sites but can not fund development for this. If the idea is specified is asking for a loan in the lending section plausible? (Just asking this question, I don't want to post a topic and seem silly or anything.)

[marcovaldo]

You should leave the loan section, because you're not asking for a loan and make a thread in the investor section.
But I doubt you will find investors ...

[Dabs]

Well, I had thought a provably fair poker site would be enough difference rather than what is currently offered as "certified fair." Hey, it was worth a try. Of course, it would be very similar to other poker sites. No poker site in existence now has any ability to prove they are fair. We rely on third party accreditation, statistical analysis of large numbers of hands and their word.

My personal investment would be my blood, sweat and tears. I'd be at it the whole time.

Thanks for the comments. I will have to find another way to do this myself.

[Vod]

My personal investment would be my blood, sweat and tears. I'd be at it the whole time.

You would be paid for your blood, sweat and tears.  30-60btc.   

[marcovaldo]

Best of luck for your project

[Dabs]

@Vod, none of the loaned or invested money goes to me. It will pay for development and all other website, server and/or client expenses.

@marcovaldo, thanks. I'm going to need it.

[smracer]

How can you can start a poker site from scratch for $6,000? 

[NLNico]

As someone who has been quite active in the BTC poker scene and visiting new BTC poker sites for last 4 or 5 months.. new websites have a DIFFICULT time to get traffic. Even when they put thousands of dollar aside for promotion, having even 1 full table of a cash game is difficult. So I am not sure how much profit you can expect, especially in the beginning.

I am not trying to demote you or possible investors, just being honest. From your lotto I know you are just a nice guy trying to get fun and interesting things running. I think your best shot in making this project will be to find a (good) developer who also likes the idea of provably fair BTC poker. Designs (possible from themeforest and such), hosting, domain, etc could be cheap in the beginning.

FYI: new custom made BTC poker site boot52.nl has 'provably fair shuffling' on the TO-DO list. Just thought I would mention it, since you are interested in it, the owner is also on btctalk.

edit: ah, I see now that you already posted in the boot52 topic :p but again just FYI he also wants to add 'provably fair shuffling'.

[Dabs]

@NLNico, thanks for the honesty. I will probably just fund it myself and start really small. I guess for me this will be an interesting project.

When I first thought of it, I was going to "host" maybe just one table.

One table with a fair dealer, and all the players know each other (as far as bitcointalk is concerned)...

All poker sites want to add provably fair shuffling, but almost all of them do not have it at the top of the priority list.

I'm more inclined to make the back end of this work, so my initial game will probably resemble a console or command line or text based. Designs and themes and skins can follow later. And I'll probably open source the client so people are free to make their own skins or themes. The game plays fair any which way.

Eventually, I'd add as much graphics as most other clients have, and I'll look at the non-bitcoin based poker sites for inspiration.

I've downloaded and tested the most popular ones, both fiat and bitcoin based.

At any rate, it would be interesting to see how all other poker sites will attempt to do "provably fair" shuffling games.

Maybe I'm better of trying to get them to do it properly. If PokerStars suddenly implements provably fair mechanisms and starts accepting bitcoins, that would be something huh.

[bitcoin44me]

Make a thread here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=78.0


Put how much you need. How many shares, and explain clearly whar you will do, when you will do it, and how much it is supposed to give back.

[Kyle91]

you're willing to pay back $6,000? Are you Bill Gates?

[Dabs]

How can you can start a poker site from scratch for $6,000? 

If I bought Poker Mavens (even the Gold edition), that would have only cost me $500. Then I could run a poker site already. But my plan is to actually develop the mechanism to accommodate the "provably fair system", so players can see the game is not rigged, at least as far as the shuffling is concerned.

http://www.briggsoft.com/pmavens.htm

you're willing to pay back $6,000? Are you Bill Gates?

If it makes money, of course I will pay back. If it doesn't, I can't, and maybe that's why this is probably not supposed to be a loan.

Make a thread here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=78.0

Put how much you need. How many shares, and explain clearly what you will do, when you will do it, and how much it is supposed to give back.

Thanks. I will consider doing that. I have to think this through a little bit more. I just had this vision, and it's still not very clear.

[Vod]

If it makes money, of course I will pay back. If it doesn't, I can't, and maybe that's why this is probably not supposed to be a loan.

Good point.  Please close this thread.  There are other forums for investments/securities.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=78.0

[Dabs]

Thread locked. Thanks for reading. I will post in the securities something. Or Maybe not. I don't know yet.