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AtlasONo
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July 12, 2011, 05:11:48 PM |
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"Trolls" usually don't offer pages of business advice.....
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It is a common myth that Bitcoin is ruled by a majority of miners. This is not true. Bitcoin miners "vote" on the ordering of transactions, but that's all they do. They can't vote to change the network rules.
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Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
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Chris Acheson
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July 12, 2011, 05:42:54 PM |
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Anonymity does not necessitate a lack of moderation. Those sections of 4chan that are actually moderated are excellent places for discussion. I found out about Bitcoin from a 4chan post.
Fair point. However, the current state of this forum doesn't exactly inspire confidence that an anonymous section would be properly moderated. I'm impressed that you see exactly what's going on, but then somehow believe that its simply a PR issue? As I really like what you have written I'd appreciate you letting me know if I'm missing something - I've spent the past month and half going from being really excited about Bitcoin as an elegant technical triumph (and something fun to follow) to realizing that participating in Bitcoin largely means having to mingle in mud with "Shut da gubment down!" armchair economists and other fringe types who've read enough to spit out libertarian platitudes, buzzwords like "fractional reserve banking" and "fiat" (in almost every damn sentence), but don't make much sense. Clearly this isn't everyone, and there are many folks on here far smarter than me, but - and this is what bothers me - there are an awful lot that don't seem to be. When I think of the face of Bitcoin I can't help but visualize an angry Uncle Jesse from the Dukes of Hazzard with an added slackjaw and lazy eye. And if, as someone who came here with earnest interest, I do, I am pretty darn sure that that the uninitiated will too.
You're right that it's not just that the "Bitcoin PR" folks aren't doing it right. Our PR department, so to speak, has suffered a hostile takeover by those who have no clue how to do PR properly, if they even care. It's not even a "too many anarchists" problem, it's a "too many tactless fools" problem. I don't think this is an inevitable result of the nature of Bitcoin. The core developers come across as fairly reasonable people, after all. I see this forum as the focal point of the image issue. Everyone looking for more information about bitcoin goes to bitcoin.org, which directs them here, where they see all the tactless fools who have set up camp. The forum admins have made sure that this place is a welcoming environment for tactless fools, who need not fear having their nonsense censored. |
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BitcoinPorn
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July 12, 2011, 05:49:03 PM |
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Everyone looking for more information about bitcoin goes to bitcoin.org, which directs them here, where they see all the tactless fools who have set up camp. The forum admins have made sure that this place is a welcoming environment for tactless fools, who need not fear having their nonsense censored.
I would make the arguement that only the best make it through. Which makes me, you, julz, Jesse King, and really all the people in this thread, the best. Excuse me for a minute.  So has the "Meta" subforum of Bitcoin.org has officially become Bitcoin Discussion  |
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unemployed (OP)
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July 12, 2011, 07:09:01 PM |
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"Trolls" usually don't offer pages of business advice.....
This. I would say it was book quality advice. She could write a book about her industry and it would have a good chance to become a bestseller. It is sad that the owner of this forum and the developer of blockexplorer.com calls her a troll. Jessy Kang has posted some very trollish posts in the past, so I don't blame people for taking her words with a grain of salt. In this case, though, she does make many good points.
Like I said, though, while she sounds trollish, I don't believe she is a troll. None of her posts have ever been individually deleted.
I believe this is not true. Why did she put the following text in her signature? Why does Atlas keep censoring my threads? Why are Theymos and Maged protecting him?
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elggawf
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July 12, 2011, 07:28:43 PM |
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I'm impressed that you see exactly what's going on, but then somehow believe that its simply a PR issue? I'm calling it a "PR problem" because despite the threads on the subject we still don't really have any sort of PR strategy. People are letting the things that individually attracted them to Bitcoin become representative of the entire idea despite the fact that many others (who simply aren't as loud in public) didn't get into it for the same reason, and that those reasons are unlikely to ever attract a large population at all. It becomes an issue of slippery slopes because the more people soap-box about the evils of government and whatnot here, the less people like me want to talk about Bitcoin to others for fear of being lumped into the same category as these people whom I disagree with politically. The political forum should, IMHO, absolutely be done away with - if you want to have an anarcho-capitalist or Randian circle-jerk there is absolutely no shortage of places on the internet you can do it. You may even be able to espouse the wonders of Bitcoin over there, if you can do it without being run out by the rabid precious-metals fetishists. Turning away everyone who's not an extreme incarnation of libertarianism, turning away perfectly good business owners who are interested in the currency, turning away "crybabies" is not going to grow this thing outside the realm of a small, irrelevant niche. If that's all the majority here wants, that's fine - but understand that there's probably still vast amounts of investment in this market from people who are waiting for it to blow up, so if you want to cut that possibility off, those people are probably going to want what's left of their investment back. If you want any decent level of worldwide adoption from Bitcoin, people are going to have to realize that politics are irrelevant unless it relates directly to Bitcoin - not everyone is going to agree with your minority political opinion, nor do they have to for the idea to work. |
^_^
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shady financier
Member
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Activity: 84
Merit: 10
etcetera
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July 12, 2011, 07:53:09 PM |
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I'm impressed that you see exactly what's going on, but then somehow believe that its simply a PR issue? I'm calling it a "PR problem" because despite the threads on the subject we still don't really have any sort of PR strategy. People are letting the things that individually attracted them to Bitcoin become representative of the entire idea despite the fact that many others (who simply aren't as loud in public) didn't get into it for the same reason, and that those reasons are unlikely to ever attract a large population at all. It becomes an issue of slippery slopes because the more people soap-box about the evils of government and whatnot here, the less people like me want to talk about Bitcoin to others for fear of being lumped into the same category as these people whom I disagree with politically. The political forum should, IMHO, absolutely be done away with - if you want to have an anarcho-capitalist or Randian circle-jerk there is absolutely no shortage of places on the internet you can do it. You may even be able to espouse the wonders of Bitcoin over there, if you can do it without being run out by the rabid precious-metals fetishists. Turning away everyone who's not an extreme incarnation of libertarianism, turning away perfectly good business owners who are interested in the currency, turning away "crybabies" is not going to grow this thing outside the realm of a small, irrelevant niche. If that's all the majority here wants, that's fine - but understand that there's probably still vast amounts of investment in this market from people who are waiting for it to blow up, so if you want to cut that possibility off, those people are probably going to want what's left of their investment back. If you want any decent level of worldwide adoption from Bitcoin, people are going to have to realize that politics are irrelevant unless it relates directly to Bitcoin - not everyone is going to agree with your minority political opinion, nor do they have to for the idea to work. I agree. It used to be my policy to loudly and vocally challenge Anarcho-Cap/Libertarianism on the forum whenever possible so that new-comers and perusers would know that not all bitcoiners were... y'know, fraggles. However the campaign soon proved exhausting and impractical. And anyway I always felt a little dirty afterward and not in a good way, more like I'd just wasted two hours of my life arguing with the smelly guy on the street corner who's always shouting at the space beside the street-light. Now I just don't talk about bitcoin anymore to people I know. |
1G8AUgSTAw8hfatNnDHuYEqBAUzC3qvAAL Bitcoin news: http://thebitcoinsun.com/Rapidlybuybitcoin here.The value of goods, expressed in money, is called “price”, while the value of money, expressed in goods, is called “value”. C. Quigley |
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opticbit
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July 12, 2011, 07:57:25 PM |
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I need to spend some time to read through carefully.
someone on here mentioned they wanted to get a bitcoin webcam site going, but neither of us concentrated on it.
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theymos
Administrator
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 5180
Merit: 12873
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July 12, 2011, 11:12:24 PM |
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I believe this is not true. Why did she put the following text in her signature? Why does Atlas keep censoring my threads? Why are Theymos and Maged protecting him?
Those posts were not deleted, though they were merged in a confusing way. (This merge was not something I advocated or was happy about. Atlas is no longer a moderator.) |
1NXYoJ5xU91Jp83XfVMHwwTUyZFK64BoAD
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Shinobi
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July 13, 2011, 02:00:02 AM |
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I'm calling it a "PR problem" because despite the threads on the subject we still don't really have any sort of PR strategy. People are letting the things that individually attracted them to Bitcoin become representative of the entire idea despite the fact that many others (who simply aren't as loud in public) didn't get into it for the same reason, and that those reasons are unlikely to ever attract a large population at all. Very true, but the conclusion I came to from seeing this is that the community that has grown around Bitcoin is a testament to the fact that Bitcoin really isn't something that will be adopted by the masses. It's not that the Bitcoin community looks like a bunch of kooks, its that most of them are. For their part, the developers - being able to see what even I can having been here for only a month - *are* to blame for failing to provide anything in the way of safety and polish in their more recent client updates that would offset the smell given off by this forum. I can understand some tech guys failing to take into account the polish and simplicity needed for the average person when first starting this project, but not now. As I've said in several earlier posts, the key to Bitcoin is safety and simplicity, and Bitcoin is neither. And, with the most enthusiastic of the community out to chant Randian slogans while peddling ponzi schemes like "Bitcoin Doubler" and chastising anyone who posts about stolen coins or the like, how could it ever come to be as such? To this day, the emphasis on trying to create a consumer goods economy is absolutely dwarfed by interest in creating speculation games. Just look at the folks begging for free coins that were brazenly stolen. People want this to be like the "Wild West" and literally get off on it. How in the hell will anyone legitimate ever touch this with a ten-foot pole? It becomes an issue of slippery slopes because the more people soap-box about the evils of government and whatnot here, the less people like me want to talk about Bitcoin to others for fear of being lumped into the same category as these people whom I disagree with politically. Exactly. It's quite validating to read this, but to see posts like yours so rare in comparison to the rest of the bruisers here, leads me back up to the conclusion mentioned above. |
_______ Thinking of using a cheap, yet reliable VPN? Go with PrivateInternetAccess. Not a referral link. Just a satisfied customer! |
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Chris Acheson
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July 13, 2011, 08:33:58 PM |
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Very true, but the conclusion I came to from seeing this is that the community that has grown around Bitcoin is a testament to the fact that Bitcoin really isn't something that will be adopted by the masses. It's not that the Bitcoin community looks like a bunch of kooks, its that most of them are.
I don't think the kooks are a majority, they're just very vocal. The trolls are as big of a problem as the kooks are. Normal people are definitely interested in Bitcoin, we just have to shut the kooks and trolls up so that the normal folks will tend to stick around. Once Sirius stops dragging his feet, this forum is supposed to be removed from the bitcoin.org domain, moved it to bitcointalk.org, and the "forum" link will presumably be removed. He has the new domain now, he just hasn't actually done the move yet. There's also an effort to get a Bitcoin Q&A site on Stack Exchange. This will help a lot, as we'll finally have a user support site with decent moderation. You guys should join and help get it off the ground. |
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BitcoinPorn
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July 13, 2011, 10:36:19 PM |
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I don't think the kooks are a majority, they're just very vocal. The trolls are as big of a problem as the kooks are. Normal people are definitely interested in Bitcoin, we just have to shut the kooks and trolls up so that the normal folks will tend to stick around. Once Sirius stops dragging his feet, this forum is supposed to be removed from the bitcoin.org domain, moved it to bitcointalk.org, and the "forum" link will presumably be removed. He has the new domain now, he just hasn't actually done the move yet. There's also an effort to get a Bitcoin Q&A site on Stack Exchange. This will help a lot, as we'll finally have a user support site with decent moderation. You guys should join and help get it off the ground. I am really surprised that the Stack Exchange site still has yet to find enough people, are the programmers here on the forums spreading that link to the appropriate places? /r/Bitcoin/ just had someone today message me that he was trying to join the forums to check on two projects (one has to do with Fantasy Football, just makes sense), I have yet to see the mention of the Stack Exchange other than your signature and you posting about it. That format seems really good, people who are already committed should promo it a bit more. Also, everyone should pray that the official Bitcoin.org forums never go away. Dear lord if there wasn't an "Official" place that both kooks (political and otherwise) and programmers can meet to discuss the random daily Bitcoin bullshit, I fear for places like Stack Exchange. Or basically whoever would be next under the .org for a search on the word "Bitcoin" |
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luv2drnkbr
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July 13, 2011, 10:49:48 PM |
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Wow vegetta is a tool
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Giraffe.BC
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
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July 13, 2011, 11:11:44 PM |
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I don't think the kooks are a majority, they're just very vocal. The trolls are as big of a problem as the kooks are. Normal people are definitely interested in Bitcoin, we just have to shut the kooks and trolls up so that the normal folks will tend to stick around.
I see far more people calling everyone who doesn't agree 100% with either their politics or their rose-colored view of Bitcoin trolls than actual trolling. And even for actual trolling, if people responded with intelligent, logical arguments instead of kooky crazy-talk, it would be a very effective way to persuade casual lurkers than trying to ban all comments that aren't reflexive agreement with the majority view. |
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Chris Acheson
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July 14, 2011, 04:53:58 PM |
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I am really surprised that the Stack Exchange site still has yet to find enough people, are the programmers here on the forums spreading that link to the appropriate places? /r/Bitcoin/ just had someone today message me that he was trying to join the forums to check on two projects (one has to do with Fantasy Football, just makes sense), I have yet to see the mention of the Stack Exchange other than your signature and you posting about it. That format seems really good, people who are already committed should promo it a bit more.
At the rate it's been going, it should open by the end of August. It would be nice to have it happen before that. We're currently ahead on new users (119/200), what we need are more people who have an established reputation on other Stack Exchange sites (48/100). Also, everyone should pray that the official Bitcoin.org forums never go away. Dear lord if there wasn't an "Official" place that both kooks (political and otherwise) and programmers can meet to discuss the random daily Bitcoin bullshit, I fear for places like Stack Exchange. Or basically whoever would be next under the .org for a search on the word "Bitcoin"
Doubt it. The SE site is strictly for technical and conceptual stuff, not for political/philosophical stuff. Nothing interesting for the kooks, and with no kooks there's no lulz for the trolls. Not to mention that there's a moderation system in place that actually works, unlike with this place. |
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BitcoinPorn
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July 14, 2011, 05:20:09 PM |
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The SE site is strictly for technical and conceptual stuff, not for political/philosophical stuff.
And thus the necessary evil that is Bitcoin.org. People need one spot to be that dumping ground for every aspect of Bitcoin, the fact that it isn't 'just tech' is what keeps it going. The experts in any Bitcoin field have an account here but no doubt do their main business in other Bitcoin communities. I know this isn't the only Bitcoin related haunt, I'm all over the place. Speaking of that. http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/ipl7l/help_get_stackexchange_for_bitcoin_up_all_tech_no/I want to help keep the people who can further the actual program not so stressed by 'forum bullshit' that so many seem to feed on here while at the same time creating more (I am not reference you or actually any one person, it happens to all, except me  ). |
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Chris Acheson
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July 14, 2011, 06:17:04 PM |
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And thus the necessary evil that is Bitcoin.org. People need one spot to be that dumping ground for every aspect of Bitcoin, the fact that it isn't 'just tech' is what keeps it going.
Sure, but I think it's bad to have our anything-goes dumping ground right out in front, as the public face of the project. I'm sure bitcointalk.org will be the the first Google result for "bitcoin forum", but I hope it doesn't even make the first page for "bitcoin". It should be kind of like IRC: it's a wild place, but you only end up there if you go looking for it, and in that case you know what to expect. Thanks. Upvoted. |
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Anonymous
Guest
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July 14, 2011, 06:28:02 PM |
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As another potential merchant interested in bitcoin (as well as interested in implementing bitcoin in a certain closed source shopping cart system used by merchants) I found her posts very enlightening.
I've read them all - except those that apparently were deleted by mods.
Please post evidence of her 'Trollish' posts. Right now I'm taking *your* words with more than a grain of salt.
Evidence... please.
I agree with this. Jessey has provided nothing but legitimate points, her "close down the politics forum" thread is one of the most reasonable things on the site and is well argued and reasoned. I also find the level of mysogony on these forums simply appalling, and I should note that several major forms consistently call out the anti-woman aspect many of the posters here have. But facts are facts, if she didn't possibly have a vagina, she would not have had the same amount of support from random internet people.
See, like this, this is the exact misogynistic language people make fun of this forum for. There are ways to phrase this that don't sound horrible, but frankly this isn't it. |
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