My take on Merit

[dncdog]

The big problem is the probability to get merits for good, high-qualitied posts is extremely low. Right?

Not really. I've been surprised by the points I've picked up so far. I just had a quick look at the last page of your post history and other than talking about the merit system (which we all are right now, it's a hot topic) I noticed most of your posts are in altcoin ANN threads. I don't really hang out over there so I don't if there are people giving out merit or not. In the Bitcoin technical sections, it seems not to be an issue at the moment.

Thanks. So which categories will you highly recommend me to join? In fact, I am not really familiar with other categories than Altcoin announcement.

[1715663370]

1715663370

[TheQuin]

Thanks. So which categories will you highly recommend me to join? In fact, I am not really familiar with other categories than Altcoin announcement.

I wasn't suggesting that you should choose to post somewhere because you might get some merit. I was just pointing out that isn't an area of the forum that I often go to so I have no idea what is going on there. You should stick to posting about what interests you. Become knowledgeable about it and post informative things, get involved in debates and you will get noticed. If you are only interested in gaining merit to rank up then that's probably the wrong way to go about it.

[Husires]

I personally had an idea for signature campaigns, where the top poster of the week gets 10 merit (or some amount). This would incentivize better post quality within the campaign.

@yahoo62278  made this idea but it was only a bonus/gift for Account Farmers https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2827626.0

No one is required to post for Merit. If you just want to post randomly throughout the week, then that's fine too. Sure, the chances of you not getting more Merits will shrink a bit, but the main point is that people should be posting naturally, and not for the sake of Merits.

Yes, but this will not happen. People will continue to make their posts longer and more convincing.
Because the motive is to Rank up and not share knowledge.

People are forcing and exaggerating in their posts to get Merits, that I have noticed too, but that's still better than spamming with 'yes I think the price will go up', or 'Bitcoin will make us rich, but we have to trust in Bitcoin'. Everything that may potentially enhance the discussion field in a thread is a welcome addition, because that's what's missing now.

Answer is Yes better than spamming (Account Farmers) and NO (Improving the quality of post needs time).
You can not convert posts from spam to reddit’s posts in one week.
It is best that to the merit system to be an easy at first and difficulty with time and not vice versa

[vlad230]

So it's been a day or so now since merit was introduced and I've shared some of my thoughts and opinions on it across a number of threads, now I feel I'll compile them all in one place.

1. Is the initial amount of merit people received fair?

Many people have complained at the unfairness of receiving the same merit points when they were 1 week away from a rank compared to someone who just ranked up. Frankly they're right and it isn't fair. However it's hard to have done anything that would have been fair, the most logical would have been to give everyone merit = activity (except for newbies and juniors) but even if we had settled on everyone receiving the merit between their ranks it would've been a much fairer solution overall. In this scenario all Members would have received 55 merit, all full 175 merit etc.

For anyone saying that they should've waited until the next activity period - the argument is completely false because there would be people each activity period who are one activity period away from a new rank.

I think it's safe to say this could've been introduced in a better way but now it's too late and it's just going to have to be something people suck up and deal with.

2. Will it combat spam effectively?

To answer this I think we need to consider the two main sources of spam - account farmers and signature campaign exploiters. Account farmers build up accounts and rank them up to sell them on. Signature campaign exploiters have many alts that participate in signature campaigns. So how do these changes effect each one?

Account Farmers

Account farmers are the ones that will be hit the hardest and this is where we'll probably see the biggest change. They can no longer just spam there 14 posts per activity period to ensure they achieve the highest rank, or even 1 post per activity period until they reach the potential activity they desire and then spam all their posts at once. They will now have to produce constructive posts in order to rank the accounts beyond Jr Member status. Mostly the farmed accounts are sold to people to use for signature campaigns (will probably require member+ we'll cover that next) or just because they want a high ranking account. This will make a huge difference in that many will simply not try and those that do try will have to up their post quality. In short, merit will probably combat this problem very well.

Signature campaign spammers

The second source of spam in the forum comes from signature campaigns, I myself have participated in campaigns and am a big supporter but it's no doubt people create multiple accounts and spam the forum as a result of such campaigns. Before we start, it's important to note that with the changes, junior members can no longer have links within their signature, this in turn will likely lead to signature campaigns being for members and above.

The merit system will struggle to combat this in a number of ways. Firstly all accounts that are already member plus will still be able to participate in campaigns and their post quality can remain exactly the same. This is going to make up a large number of the accounts. It can act as a deterrent to new accounts being created as it will require some quality posts to achieve a higher rank and higher rewards but still people can just farm member accounts and use these, once they have their 10 merit then their post quality does not matter.

Even worse, if signature campaigns decide to still allow Jr Members (this is entirely possible) and accept that they won't have links in their signatures then the spam could actually become worse. In the environment whereby accounts cannot rank up beyond Jr Member without quality posts there is no incentive to write anything of use or substance. Previously signature campaign participants had an incentive to post quality posts because they did not want their accounts to be banned for spamming and lose all of their progress. It would take months to reach a new rank and having to start again is a big set back. If Jr Members are still allowed in campaigns there is very little risk in regard to their accounts being banned for spam, they can simply create another Jr Member in approximately 1 month. In short, I think merit will have mixed effects here and won't be nearly as effective as it will be against account farmers.

3. Is the way that sMerit works well thought and will it be fair and effective?

The math

By now you probably know that the only long term source of sMerit is from selected accounts. Theymos has said that in total there will be 8175 sMerit to be distributed each month. Before we actually look at how this sMerit may or may not be fairly distributed let's just break that down with some numbers.

Each account previously if fulfilling its potential growth would grow by 30 activity per 30 days. Given that, dividing 8175 by 30 we get 272.5. That means that 272.5 accounts with the new measure could grow at the rate they were previously able to grow. Now as of writing we have approximately 1.7m accounts in this forum, of course many will be inactive but even removing those it's a lot more than 272.5

An alternative way to look at this point is to consider the posts per day. If we take the average number of posts per month from January 2015 to December 2017 (therefore discounting for the fact the forum has got a lot busier in the last months than at the beginning of this time period which would only serve to worsen things) we get an average monthly number of posts of 451,274. Given that of those 451,274 posts there will be a total of 8175 merit given out we can calculate that per post we are looking at approximately 0.0018 merit being given per post, or alternatively 1 in 55 posts earning 1 merit. Compare that to previously where a user could assume that per 1 post they'd gain 1 activity up to the limit then it's a much slower rate of progression. These figures were calculated from the official forum stats if anyone wants to check my calculations.

The logic

The math is all very good at showing that there's probably not enough sMerit to go around but it also fails to highlight a number of other things.

Will sMerits be fairly distributed across ranks and sections of the forums? I've seen many concerns that lower ranked members will never receive merit and that it will in fact always go to the higher ranked members of the forum, undoubtedly there is some correlation between post quality and ranking but it does not mean to say that a newbie can not have excellent post quality, will they be rewarded for that, that remains to be seen. Also, given that there are currently about 30 merit sources, will they check enough of the forum that all areas are covered and peoples contributions are rewarded, it's highly likely that they are more likely to be in sections that are regarded as more 'elite' such as 'development and technical discussion' or 'serious discussion'. Newer ranked members are less likely to post in these sections and even some higher ranked members may chose no to, I myself do not and find I am much more able to offer advice in other sections of the forum, it remains to be seen how the spread of sMerits will be across the forum. One seemingly obvious solution to this would be to have more sMerit sources, it does not have to mean more circulating sMerits but more sources would mean that more of the forum is likely to be scoured for good quality posts. Furthermore I think it is worth considering sMerits not being spendable/giftable to legendary accounts, they are effectively wasted as there is nowhere for them to progress from Legendary.

What of sMerit sources that become inactive, we only have a finite amount already, we can be sure that some of the 30 or so sources will become inactive and that even further reduces the scarcity of sMerit.

One thing I feel would be a nice solution in the long term would be to have some sort of way to nominate yourself or others for consideration for a rank increase or a merit boost. Undoubtedly some people's contributions will go unrewarded and they should be able to speak out about it. Of course some consideration of controls would be needed so as to not have many Jr Members spamming saying they deserve more merit.

From both the intuition and the math it would seem right now that we are set for a period of great scarcity and ranks will be much harder to progress throughout, of course it's early days and this could change but those are my initial impressions.

4. Why do ranks even matter, it's not like it makes a difference?

This is one question I found myself answering earlier and the real short of it is this. Rightly or wrongly people can make money by posting in this forum, as they increase ranks, their earning potential increases. The community is incentivised to contribute and help one another by such things as signature campaigns. If we end up in a scenario whereby the elite remain elite and those at the bottom remain at the bottom then it will only promote discontent within the forum. It is vital for the forums success that there is always a progression and a constant stream of new members. If these new members feel that the same opportunities are not afforded to them then they won't stick around.

5. Summing up

This covers most of my initial thoughts on the new merit system, I see a lot of good in it and a lot of potential but also it has a feel of something that was perhaps a little rush and not well thought out. It remains to be seen how well it will function and we should all give it time but subsequently there should be a willingness for people to listen to feedback and consider change. Spam will certainly be reduced in the forum but a correct balance needs to be found between limiting spam and limiting opportunity for new members. If things don't work out and sMerits are too scarce I hope that this is acknowledged and changes are made whether that be in increasing the number of sMerits in supply or reducing the merits required to rank up.

I'm really interested for some feedback and your inputs on this, especially your feelings regarding the total supply of sMerits and if you feel like it's enough to sustain the ranking up of accounts. If anyone has any access to more detailed numbers about things such as the amount of activity gained each month by the whole forum or anything similar please let me know as I'd be really interested to look in to it.

Now feel free to agree or disagree with some of my points but let's try keep it to constructive criticism and discussion instead of just flaming people.

1. Granting merit by default to users is a bad idea. There a lot that don't even post in proper English...

2.I don't understand why multiple accounts are allowed on this forum or any other. It's not like you can do more with one compared to the other. The whole purpose of a forum is discuss ideas. One account per user is very simple to enforce and I think it should be put in practice. This will stop account farmers and spammers.

3. I think the Merit system can be implemented to create another account level - Influencer - for people with ideas that are relevant to many users.
Restricting new users by this will stop them creating new content and sharing their ideas. They will be fine with just reading or moving to another forum.

4.Ranking systems always should denote the level of experience - see army or police ranks. It matters if you want to see how "valuable" or accurate a reply is because it is based on experience.

5. I feel the same way about it, it was a bit rushed. I have proposed a different system - based on "likes" - but this is contra productive if multiple user accounts exist.

[Ramtapsbtc]

4. Why do ranks even matter, it's not like it makes a difference?

This is one question I found myself answering earlier and the real short of it is this. Rightly or wrongly people can make money by posting in this forum, as they increase ranks, their earning potential increases. The community is incentivised to contribute and help one another by such things as signature campaigns. If we end up in a scenario whereby the elite remain elite and those at the bottom remain at the bottom then it will only promote discontent within the forum. It is vital for the forums success that there is always a progression and a constant stream of new members. If these new members feel that the same opportunities are not afforded to them then they won't stick around.

Agree with you, those members here who have been here for a long time and got ranked-up not for quality post but for their length of time in this forum. Whether we like it or not, those guys have alt account.

[TMAN]

4. Why do ranks even matter, it's not like it makes a difference?

This is one question I found myself answering earlier and the real short of it is this. Rightly or wrongly people can make money by posting in this forum, as they increase ranks, their earning potential increases. The community is incentivised to contribute and help one another by such things as signature campaigns. If we end up in a scenario whereby the elite remain elite and those at the bottom remain at the bottom then it will only promote discontent within the forum. It is vital for the forums success that there is always a progression and a constant stream of new members. If these new members feel that the same opportunities are not afforded to them then they won't stick around.

Agree with you, those members here who have been here for a long time and got ranked-up not for quality post but for their length of time in this forum. Whether we like it or not, those guys have alt account.

I don't have an alt... not everyone gives a shit about stuff like that

[bryant.coleman]

In most local topics, you can see merit buying/selling posts. So anyone hoping Merit will increase the post quality will be disappointed...

once found out, expect them to get tagged by DT1/2 and received neg trust
I believe this merit thing would slowly change the quality of the posts we see on this forum
only time would tell, lets hope the best for our beloved forum

In that case, these people will take their "merit trading" activity outside the Bitcointalk, probably in digital point or other forums. If they do that, then there is hardly anyway to identify these users. Another danger is that rather than doing account farming, those users who want to enroll in to multiple signature campaigns may purchase dormant accounts of higher rank (once again, outside Bitcointalk).

[panorama]

I've got mixed feelings about the merit system. I agree that it'll help combat post spam, but I have to admit that it's kind of demotivating.

For the most part, I've tried to contribute high quality posts, but I still worry that the scarcity of sMerits will make it extremely difficult for me to rank up to the next level. I know that's the point, but I kind of feel like I'm being penalized even though I've tried to maintain a high quality account.

[jseverson]

For the most part, I've tried to contribute high quality posts, but I still worry that the scarcity of sMerits will make it extremely difficult for me to rank up to the next level.

That's because the system is currently not working as theymos intended. This is from another thread:

@DooMAD
If they're really not adding anything, then they shouldn't get merit. But it doesn't need to be mind-blowing, either. Someone suggested a feature where all umerited posts would be hidden (which I may do at some point) -- I think that it'd be good to look at it as asking what posts you would want in such a summary. So not just incredible posts which might've taken an hour or more to write (those should probably get 10+ merit), but also the questions, arguments, jokes, etc. which couldn't be removed from a thread without starting to lobotomize it.

It's all very new, of course, so maybe this strategy will not actually be the best, but it is what I had in mind when designing the system.

@TMAN, I have been adding sources, and I will continue.

What I gather from that is that anything of value should get a merit. That's also why you may award more than 1 per post. It seems like the scarcity problem is being worked on, so let's just give it time.

[tbct_mt2]

In most local topics, you can see merit buying/selling posts. So anyone hoping Merit will increase the post quality will be disappointed...

once found out, expect them to get tagged by DT1/2 and received neg trust
I believe this merit thing would slowly change the quality of the posts we see on this forum
only time would tell, lets hope the best for our beloved forum

In that case, these people will take their "merit trading" activity outside the Bitcointalk, probably in digital point or other forums. If they do that, then there is hardly anyway to identify these users. Another danger is that rather than doing account farming, those users who want to enroll in to multiple signature campaigns may purchase dormant accounts of higher rank (once again, outside Bitcointalk).

In fact, admin, moderators, and users can discover those cheating, negative donated merits. It will easily to be discovered because those sort of users don't care about making good posts, or they don't have enough knowledge, English skills to do that. Most of their post are low- under- qualitied ones.

Something released by users like this one
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2823221.0
Is it useful? I guess most of you will say YES, right?

However, the real problem is we can not judge them, or demerit them, etc. We almost can not do any punishments - which might lead to over-debate - for those violations, abusement in the forum.

The situation will become very complicated!

[panorama]

For the most part, I've tried to contribute high quality posts, but I still worry that the scarcity of sMerits will make it extremely difficult for me to rank up to the next level.

That's because the system is currently not working as theymos intended. This is from another thread:

@DooMAD
If they're really not adding anything, then they shouldn't get merit. But it doesn't need to be mind-blowing, either. Someone suggested a feature where all umerited posts would be hidden (which I may do at some point) -- I think that it'd be good to look at it as asking what posts you would want in such a summary. So not just incredible posts which might've taken an hour or more to write (those should probably get 10+ merit), but also the questions, arguments, jokes, etc. which couldn't be removed from a thread without starting to lobotomize it.

It's all very new, of course, so maybe this strategy will not actually be the best, but it is what I had in mind when designing the system.

@TMAN, I have been adding sources, and I will continue.

What I gather from that is that anything of value should get a merit. That's also why you may award more than 1 per post. It seems like the scarcity problem is being worked on, so let's just give it time.

That makes a lot of sense, but it seems like the sMerits are too scarce. I liked the OP's post, so I gave him my first merit. However, I only started with 5 so I feel like I can't give them away too easily UNLESS I start to receive them relatively easily. If what you described plays out, it should work pretty well so I hope people are generous with them.

Your reply definitely made me rethink how I should be spending my own sMerits, so you'll get one from me see well. I'll make a conscious effort to try and spend them as frequently as possible, regardless of how many I hold.

[A1exander]

What I gather from that is that anything of value should get a merit. That's also why you may award more than 1 per post. It seems like the scarcity problem is being worked on, so let's just give it time.

That is what I expected when I first saw the merit requirements for different ranks. It makes sense. It would greatly reduce spam without making ranking up nearly impossible. I'm very skeptical of the new system now, but in case of such adjustments I may completely change my mind.

[findingthemoon]

What I gather from that is that anything of value should get a merit. That's also why you may award more than 1 per post. It seems like the scarcity problem is being worked on, so let's just give it time.

In that case my suggestion would be limit the number of merit per post from 50 to maybe 5 and set a limit between individual users. In addition increase the number of merit sources substantially while reducing the number of smerit each source gives to ensure a fairer distribution.

[fara_buduk]

There may be two sides: [1] the first side is good because it will reduce spam messages and is less troublesome but on the other hand, [2] this can make people "really" the first person to "do not count farmers account" to get smerit and this could be sales and buy smerit
and smerit as well as like in social media

[Jaydis]

Well presented on the side of merit system, it in courage me to embrace it.

[retlaw04]

The current Merit account balance is in no way suitable to represent quality.

Many long-established members have 2500 merit and more. And that too for posts with no more than 3 words.

So that does not represent the quality of these postings.
In addition, attempts are already being made to sell Merit.
Does that serve the quality of the contributions?

And members like me, who are 3 or 4 days ahead of a status upgrade, now have an almost impossible task to do.

In addition, this is an international forum. And not all members speak and write flawless English here.
Like me. And even that will worsen the scoring - unaffected by the content.

[LoyceV]

Many long-established members have 2500 merit and more. And that too for posts with no more than 3 words.

This isn't true. See the Top-merited users. Nobody has 2500 Merit, theymos has the most (2329 Merit).

So that does not represent the quality of these postings.

There are of course exceptions, and the Merit system isn't perfect, but in the long-term I have high hopes it will work well. I only Merit posts that I value, and from what I've seen (and received) that's what most people do.

In addition, attempts are already being made to sell Merit.
Does that serve the quality of the contributions?

You can report them, and they'll most likely receive red trust (on DT2).

And members like me, who are 3 or 4 days ahead of a status upgrade, now have an almost impossible task to do.

I've seen a few Newbies and Jr. Members quickly collect many Merit points. The point of Merit points is to force people to post high-quality stuff (theymos' words). Ranking up shouldn't be your main goal.

In addition, this is an international forum. And not all members speak and write flawless English here.
Like me. And even that will worsen the scoring - unaffected by the content.

Flawless English isn't required.

[retlaw04]

This isn't true. See the Top-merited users. Nobody has 2500 Merit, theymos has the most (2329 Merit).

Excuse me. My mistake. You are right.

I've seen a few Newbies and Jr. Members quickly collect many Merit points. The point of Merit points is to force people to post high-quality stuff (theymos' words). Ranking up shouldn't be your main goal.

I can also tell you why that is. Because some - very, very very few - exemplary users have started and distributed their merit to the newest and smallest members. And that is very commendable.
Unfortunately, I was only able to award one merit.

Flawless English isn't required.

I think so. Sorry.

[Andrey123]

I do not seem to grow to the next rank (
And I do not understand how a person decides whether to send Merit or not .... so now you can wait and try for several years.

[Jet Cash]

I hope that unmerited post won't be hidden. That will limit the breadth of the thread considerably.

If it is to be done, then please make it user selectable.