Satoshi proposed a gentlemans agreement to postpone GPU mining (2009)

[e4xit]

Just a general FYI I suppose, I found it interesting... 

The average total coins generated across the network per day stays the same.  Faster machines just get a larger share than slower machines.  If everyone bought faster machines, they wouldn't get more coins than before.

We should have a gentleman's agreement to postpone the GPU arms race as long as we can for the good of the network.  It's much easer to get new users up to speed if they don't have to worry about GPU drivers and compatibility.  It's nice how anyone with just a CPU can compete fairly equally right now.

[davout]

Ask people to be nice to each other.
Jesus tried that already.

[Kluge]

This was before it was relatively easy to simply purchase coins, so new users, unless they begged or used a faucet, were practically required to mine BTC to use it. Making BTC more difficult to mine would've limited adoption.

[e4xit]

Yeah that's true I suppose.

I'm sure I often hear people spouting things like "Satoshi never envisioned GPU or pooled mining", so I just found it kinda interesting that it was proposed to him this long ago, and he answered as if he had always known it was coming, but was trying to stay quiet about it for as long as possible....

[davout]

This was before it was relatively easy to simply purchase coins, so new users, unless they begged or used a faucet, were practically required to mine BTC to use it. Making BTC more difficult to mine would've limited adoption.

Not true.
In these immemorial times mtgox was still unctional, at some point accepted paypal, and credit cards through liqpay.

[Kluge]

This was before it was relatively easy to simply purchase coins, so new users, unless they begged or used a faucet, were practically required to mine BTC to use it. Making BTC more difficult to mine would've limited adoption.

Not true.
In these immemorial times mtgox was still unctional, at some point accepted paypal, and credit cards through liqpay.

Oh - my bad. Alright, people could've sent money to a just-established trading card exchange for BTC. 

ETA: Guess I did say easy, not confidence-inspiring.

[androz]

The average total coins generated across the network per day stays the same.  Faster machines just get a larger share than slower machines.  If everyone bought faster machines, they wouldn't get more coins than before.

We should have a gentleman's agreement

no place for gentleman in btc world, unfortunately


the only thing that will stop the asic race is the worst: a constant hard drop of btc value

[BitcoinBarrel]

I still don't think a price drop would have much of an effect on anything.

[androz]

I still don't think a price drop would have much of an effect on anything.

could you elaborate your answer?

my assumption is simple, constant price drop imply that asic companies costumers will abstain to buy new miners; even if they believe a future price rise, they can't afford to mine at loss for longer periods; asic companies accordingly will have to limitate the production and then we could see a difficulty drop.

[DyslexicZombei]

The average total coins generated across the network per day stays the same.  Faster machines just get a larger share than slower machines.  If everyone bought faster machines, they wouldn't get more coins than before.

We should have a gentleman's agreement

no place for gentleman in btc world, unfortunately


the only thing that will stop the asic race is the worst: a constant hard drop of btc value

I'm sorry. I beg to differ. I may not be a gentleman but I *try* to be a gentleman with anyone I'm dealing with whether it's in the BTC world or not.

This culture is so nascent, that there's still room for civility to take root - at least among well intentioned miners & speculators - while taking calculated risks.

[crumbs]

I still don't think a price drop would have much of an effect on anything.

could you elaborate your answer?

my assumption is simple, constant price drop imply that asic companies costumers will abstain to buy new miners; even if they believe a future price rise, they can't afford to mine at loss for longer periods; asic companies accordingly will have to limitate the production and then we could see a difficulty drop.

Don't forget that bitcoin miners are being pre-ordered -- the actual value [at the time the rig starts mining] of bitcoin and difficulty don't matter*.  What matters is the expected value of bitcoin and the expected difficulty at the time the pre-order is placed -- often a year in advance.
*only electricity cost surpassing the worth of mined bitcoins breaks this.

[Takeshi_Kovacs]

I still don't think a price drop would have much of an effect on anything.

could you elaborate your answer?

my assumption is simple, constant price drop imply that asic companies costumers will abstain to buy new miners; even if they believe a future price rise, they can't afford to mine at loss for longer periods; asic companies accordingly will have to limitate the production and then we could see a difficulty drop.

Don't forget that bitcoin miners are being pre-ordered -- the actual value [at the time the rig starts mining] of bitcoin and difficulty don't matter*.  What matters is the expected value of bitcoin and the expected difficulty at the time the pre-order is placed -- often a year in advance.
*only electricity cost surpassing the worth of mined bitcoins breaks this.

Even the power cost will not matter.

Folks are pre-ordering ASIC miners today and justifying it with the tired old mantra that if you buy your ASIC miner with fiat currency then you can never say that it will be a loss making venture because the future value of Bitcoins is unknown. When they get to the point at which the electricity cost outweighs the mining income, they will just tell you that they are paying for the electricity with fiat so the same logic will apply. You cannot argue with those people, you can only pity them.

[theymos]

Not true.
In these immemorial times mtgox was still unctional, at some point accepted paypal, and credit cards through liqpay.

This particular quote was from a month before the first automated exchange opened (Bitcoin Market). MtGox came several months later IIRC.

[Meni Rosenfeld]

Not true.
In these immemorial times mtgox was still unctional, at some point accepted paypal, and credit cards through liqpay.

This particular quote was from a month before the first automated exchange opened (Bitcoin Market). MtGox came several months later IIRC.

Right, according to https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/History Mtgox started on July 2010, half a year later.

[androz]

 What matters is the expected value of bitcoin

Folks are pre-ordering ASIC miners today and justifying it with the tired old mantra that if you buy your ASIC miner with fiat currency then you can never say that it will be a loss making venture because the future value of Bitcoins is unknown.

there could be a significant amount of individuals lead by blind hope, but ther's a break point for all
even if one believe strongly in a future appreciation of btc, present high losses of fiat at least will push him to consider other strategies than mining, i.e. trading

however the recent bfl monarch sold out is giving you reason

let's see what happens when the difficulty will be unsostainable even for the strongest asic (it's not far to see imao)

[androz]

I'm sorry. I beg to differ. I may not be a gentleman but I *try* to be a gentleman with anyone I'm dealing with whether it's in the BTC world or not.

This culture is so nascent, that there's still room for civility to take root - at least among well intentioned miners & speculators - while taking calculated risks.

i guess the pioneers of btc were genuinely gentleman, but after them i'm seeing more greed than good intentions

 "gentleman" in satoshi's meaning equals people concerned about btc ecosystem.

a healty decentralization could be acheived if all the community subscribed a tacit gentleman's agreement refusing to mine with asics

It's nice how anyone with just a CPU can compete fairly equally right now

looking at the present situation, people acted like "gentleman" ?
sorry for being too cynical

[KonstantinosM]

Just to get a piece of the bitcoin pie I had to get a 30 GH/s bitcoin miner. I waited for nearly a year to receive it 10 months.

I looked at the thing as an investment against my bank. My bank gave me 1 cent a month. bitcoin is almost sure to be more profitable. I really don't like the amount of ASICS that are being deployed. I really doubt anyone will keep mining when there is another drop in the bitcoin reward.

To tie such amounts of money in mining equipment is ridiculous.

Let's think of the amount of damage is being done in the name of Bitcoin to make all these cheap factory made chips.
The amount of electricity being wasted to keep the network hashing at an insane pace.

If only we weren't so damn greedy. And as I'm talking I'm using 120 watts 24/7 just to mine. I'm legitimately hurting the environment in which we all live in. And what for? A tiny little return on investment.


Then again I can buy myself a Bitcoin miner shirt from BitPride and pat myself on the back.
When does bitcoin miner turn to bitcoin traitor. I don't know. We (the miners) have essentially blocked 99% of humanity from having the ability to mine bitcoin.

Of course there is LTC and other cryptos but those pale in comparison compared to bitcoin and the mere fact that there are other crypto-currencies doesn't mean we should just demolish bitcoin to go to another currency.

[spiral_mind]

Just to get a piece of the bitcoin pie I had to get a 30 GH/s bitcoin miner. I waited for nearly a year to receive it 10 months.

I looked at the thing as an investment against my bank. My bank gave me 1 cent a month. bitcoin is almost sure to be more profitable. I really don't like the amount of ASICS that are being deployed. I really doubt anyone will keep mining when there is another drop in the bitcoin reward.

To tie such amounts of money in mining equipment is ridiculous.

Let's think of the amount of damage is being done in the name of Bitcoin to make all these cheap factory made chips.
The amount of electricity being wasted to keep the network hashing at an insane pace.

If only we weren't so damn greedy. And as I'm talking I'm using 120 watts 24/7 just to mine. I'm legitimately hurting the environment in which we all live in. And what for? A tiny little return on investment.


Then again I can buy myself a Bitcoin miner shirt from BitPride and pat myself on the back.
When does bitcoin miner turn to bitcoin traitor. I don't know. We (the miners) have essentially blocked 99% of humanity from having the ability to mine bitcoin.

Of course there is LTC and other cryptos but those pale in comparison compared to bitcoin and the mere fact that there are other crypto-currencies doesn't mean we should just demolish bitcoin to go to another currency.

Something you're overlooking is the more hashing power the network has the more expensive and difficult it will be to attack the network. It's not wasted money and electricity. You might as well count the number of light bulbs per bank, multiply their power usage, and say that traditional banking hurts the environment. That's not even counting the massive server farms that handle current electronic transactions in the traditional money infrastructure.

[crumbs]

...
Something you're overlooking is the more hashing power the network has the more expensive and difficult it will be to attack the network. It's not wasted money and electricity. You might as well count the number of light bulbs per bank, multiply their power usage, and say that traditional banking hurts the environment. That's not even counting the massive server farms that handle current electronic transactions in the traditional money infrastructure.

Lol, if traditional banks burned as much power as bitcoin miners (who will continue mining until energy cost=bitcoin value), they'd have to plug into the nearest sun, conventional power grid would be just piss in the ocean

[e4xit]

...
Something you're overlooking is the more hashing power the network has the more expensive and difficult it will be to attack the network. It's not wasted money and electricity. You might as well count the number of light bulbs per bank, multiply their power usage, and say that traditional banking hurts the environment. That's not even counting the massive server farms that handle current electronic transactions in the traditional money infrastructure.

Lol, if traditional banks burned as much power as bitcoin miners (who will continue mining until energy cost=bitcoin value), they'd have to plug into the nearest sun, conventional power grid would be just piss in the ocean

So do you think all the miners in the world are currently using more energy to regulate and secure the bitcoin network, than all the banks in the world are using to regulate and secure their financial system?