Thoughts about the Merit System, from an "angry" Sr. Member - Giving mine away

[Bolt Brownie]

I will start by apologizing for the misleading title, since I'm not angry anymore.
I'm just learning about this new system myself, and I've decided to leave my thoughts about it.

At first I didn't like it at all, and I even got a bit angry about it. I would rank to Hero tomorrow, and now I need to earn 250 Merit points, and I have no idea on how long it will take me to get there because it's no longer under my control. Users need to like my posts, and since this forum is so big, chances are that most people will not even read them, because they will get "lost" or "buried" in some thread. It was this thought, that people might not even be reading my posts that made me calm down and understand that maybe this system it what we need after all.

I first joined this forum to participate in a betting competition. I then started learning about bitcoin and I decided to give campaigns a try. I mean, if there was a chance to win some coins while participating in this forum why not do it, right? This is probably where most of us get lost.

I wont lie, campaigns are important to me since they are the only way I have to hoard bitcoin with no risk, but it's easy to start adjusting our posts so that they meet a certain criteria: a certain number of posts a week, with a certain number of chars, in certain topics, etc. We don't even realize we are doing that.

Lets face it, so many people start doing that, that this becomes the norm, and it gets hard to do anything else. I read a topic, I see if I know something about it, I read a few posts from other users and then I make a post... job done. This is not entirely wrong since I was on topic, I read a few posts, I did some research so I learned something, and maybe I even helped the OP if he even read my reply, but there was no connection and no real conversation or discussion. Chances are, I will never visit that thread again or keep following that topic, and this is wrong.

I guess that this is why the new system will probably work. Users actually need to carefully read posts and try to engage in forum discussions right now, otherwise they will not be able to receive or give merit. You now need to try to be part of this community and really talk to other users, and this is a good thing.

Maybe I will rank to hero, or maybe I wont. It doesn't really matter anymore, and this is why I'm confidant that the system will work: If I'm not thinking about the ranks, then I can really focus on content.

This is my advice to other users that are in the same position as me:

- Don't try to exchange merit with others. This is not a coin.
- Don't give merit to others, hoping that they will give some to you as well.
- Basically stop thinking about getting merit, and start thinking about giving merit.

I think this last one is very important, because you can only give merit if you carefully read other users posts, and this is the only way to start a good discussion with other users. By doing this you will be using this forum as forum, and not as a way to get paid.

I will be giving my sMerit away, and I will create a thread in the service area and you can then leave links to topics or posts where you are trying to have real discussions.
I repeat: where you are trying to have real discussions. I will leave my topics of interest there, but you can of course try to suggest other things that you think I might like. If I like it, I will engage in the discussion.

I will edit this topic and put the link here as soon as I create the thread.
In the meanwhile feel free to share your thoughts about the new system, and how it changed the way you use this forum.

EDIT: Here is the thread for the service https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2850321.msg29237739#msg29237739

[Jet Cash]

The fact that members have to submit their posts to approval threads shows a fundamental flaw in the structure of Bitcoin Talk. If a good thread/post cannot be seen by members, then the board needs some attention and moderation in my opinion.

The other point to consider is the fact that those donating the points don't seem to be reading the boards. If they were, then they would have noticed the post. This makes one wonder how useful all those sig banners are. If the posts are not being seen, then there is a strong possibility that the banners aren't either.

[Bolt Brownie]

I thought about that as well, but the truth is that we need to give the system some time. It only has a few days, so it's still hard to find good threads since the spam didn't just vanished. We can of course use the stats and see what are the Top-merited topics, users, etc., and chances are, that we will find good discussions there as well.

I do think this system I'm trying will make it even easier since I will post my areas of interest, so it will be easier to find things that I like to talk about, and that's why I'm doing it.

About the banners I don't know if they work or not, but a lot of money is spend there, so maybe they do. I think that if they are in a good number, people will eventually notice the brand, and if they see it to often, and in many different places they will probably try to get some information about it.

[eternalgloom]

You'll get there if you keep making posts with as much effort in them as this one.
Your other posts seem fine too, but I would definitely recommend re-visiting the topics after you've commented. Only reply to substantial replies too.

Don't forget that you can also create threads yourself, I'll be a nice change when more people start writing topics with something a bit more substance in them.

[TheQuin]

I guess that this is why the new system will probably work. Users actually need to carefully read posts and try to engage in forum discussions right now, otherwise they will not be able to receive or give merit. You now need to try to be part of this community and really talk to other users, and this is a good thing.

Maybe I will rank to hero, or maybe I wont. It doesn't really matter anymore, and this is why I'm confidant that the system will work: If I'm not thinking about the ranks, then I can really focus on content.

Well done, you've taken the step of embracing the new system rather than sulking about missing out on ranking up like many others are doing.

The fact that members have to submit their posts to approval threads shows a fundamental flaw in the structure of Bitcoin Talk.

This just shows how difficult it is to find interesting discussions going on when it is buried under a deep pile of shitposts. That's exactly what this system is trying to fix. I found the unexpected benefit of checking what certain people have left merit for and discovered good threads I would otherwise have missed.

This makes one wonder how useful all those sig banners are. If the posts are not being seen, then there is a strong possibility that the banners aren't either.

From personal experience, I've only had a paid add in my signature for a short while and before that, I used to leave a referral link in there. It was very effective in getting hits. Even when I took a break and didn't use the forum for a couple of years I was getting about 5 hits a day.
It really depends on what is being written. Is it the sort of thing people will be searching for and reading? I'm sure the advertisers paying people to post in spam mega threads are wasting their money but this is still a very effective place to advertise if people are posting interesting content.

[Bolt Brownie]

I've created the thread I've mentioned, link is in the OP, but I will also leave it here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2850321.msg29237739#msg29237739

[WaffleMaster]

I can't get behind the idea of merit. I guess I got a standard of 500 just for being a 'Hero Member', which probably means I could give 250 out, but the whole system seems too easily gamed and exploited to lock 'account status' behind it. This may make higher rank accounts more valuable and further facilitate people farming merit for increased profit.

Now people might see merit and think that the person is trustworthy the higher the number is. People already do this with higher ranked accounts like hero and legendary, which is obviously naive. Seems like it is just more things for scammers to lull victims with now.

[Bolt Brownie]

the whole system seems too easily gamed and exploited to lock 'account status' behind it. This may make higher rank accounts more valuable and further facilitate people farming merit for increased profit.

Now people might see merit and think that the person is trustworthy the higher the number is. People already do this with higher ranked accounts like hero and legendary, which is obviously naive. Seems like it is just more things for scammers to lull victims with now.

What you are describing could already be achieved with the "trust" system, so why create a hole new system just to "lock status"?
I think that ranks, the trust system, and now the merit system are valuable and can in fact help build status for an account, and there's nothing wrong with that if that status is legit. I think most accounts probably have legit status, and there are of course those that only farmed it. Every system can be exploited and used for personal gains, but that doesn't mean that they were created just for that.

It's of course naive to trust anyone just based on a number or a rank, but that is true for everything in life, specially in the "online world".

[Jet Cash]

Trust and merit are two different things. I don't trade through this forum, so my trust should stay at zero. Merit is awarded for contributions to the improvement and support you give to the Bitcoin Talk forum and its members. At least that is the way I think it should work.

[criz2fer]

Nice topic. I have really enjoyed reading your post. I think this coming threads in the forum will become more interesting because we are seeing the positive effect of the merit system. Topics become more informative and questions from newbies are being reduce that really makes every boards looks like a mess.

I was also angry at first because I should be a Sr. Member 6 days after the merit system was released. But looking at the benefit and the effect on each member gives a clear definition why we are here in the forum. And that is to improve yourself and share thoughts in the world of crypto we are in today.

[codemanX]

Same here, I was angry too. After 4 months of being a Full Member I was proud to be a Senior in a few days. That will not happen in the next few months now I think.

OK, I got used to it and meanwhile I do not care, the OP of Bolt Brownie hits the nail on the head, definitely worth of one Merit  

[Bolt Brownie]

Trust and merit are two different things. I don't trade through this forum, so my trust should stay at zero. Merit is awarded for contributions to the improvement and support you give to the Bitcoin Talk forum and its members. At least that is the way I think it should work.

I agree, and I wasn't saying that they are the same. I was saying that trust and rank already provide a certain status in this forum which is perfectly normal, so there would be no reason to create a new system just to provide additional status, or to try to "lock it" like WaffleMaster apparently thinks.

We had "trade status" related to trust, we had "experience status" related to rank, and we now have "content status" related to merit. I can be exploited of course, but I think those cases will probably be minimal.

Nice topic. I have really enjoyed reading your post. I think this coming threads in the forum will become more interesting because we are seeing the positive effect of the merit system. Topics become more informative and questions from newbies are being reduce that really makes every boards looks like a mess.

I was also angry at first because I should be a Sr. Member 6 days after the merit system was released. But looking at the benefit and the effect on each member gives a clear definition why we are here in the forum. And that is to improve yourself and share thoughts in the world of crypto we are in today.

Same here, I was angry too. After 4 months of being a Full Member I was proud to be a Senior in a few days. That will not happen in the next few months now I think.

OK, I got used to it and meanwhile I do not care, the OP of Bolt Brownie hits the nail on the head, definitely worth of one Merit 

Thanks guys, I'm glad you also think that way. Like I said before I already created the thread in the service board of this forum (link in the OP), but users still haven't posted any Topics for discussion. Feel free to stop by, and make your contribution. The boards are still a little messy right now, which is normal, because the system just started, so that could be a good short cut, to start gathering some good threads we can use.

[elpsycongree]

At first I didn't like it at all, and I even got a bit angry about it. I would rank to Hero tomorrow, and now I need to earn 250 Merit points, and I have no idea on how long it will take me to get there because it's no longer under my control. Users need to like my posts, and since this forum is so big, chances are that most people will not even read them, because they will get "lost" or "buried" in some thread. It was this thought, that people might not even be reading my posts that made me calm down and understand that maybe this system it what we need after all.

EDIT: Here is the thread for the service https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2850321.msg29237739#msg29237739

I'm currently in this phase and I think I'm having a hard time to cope up with this merit system. I am really not sure if my posts were helpful/informative/constructive enough for people to give me merit. I still don't have any merits till now which led me to think if what I'm posting is not significant for people to notice. I'm trying to prove something that I too can gain merit through improving what I know and what can I contribute with my personal opinion/perspective of the topic.

It is greatly appreciated if you guys can guide me to how I can really make a quality post worth giving merits to

[TheQuin]

It is greatly appreciated if you guys can guide me to how I can really make a quality post worth giving merits to

I just had a quick look at your post history. The last post that isn't about merit and is in English is this:

Eliminating the banks in the world is an impossible task, I must say. Banks are ruled by the richest people in the world and I think it'll be easy for them to manipulate the market if they wish so. If we're going to think about it, the market is affected by the news. Those news "misunderstood" by the people.

It's on page 34 of a thread called "Can we totally eliminate all the banks in this world?".

Did you read all 34 pages and decide that nobody had already said exactly what you did?
Do you think anybody else is ever going to read all 34 pages to get to your post?

Most of your posts follow the same pattern, just spamming your first thoughts on the subject title which hundreds of other spammers have already done before you.

Try reading a thread before posting. Engage in discussion rather than just posting your opinion. Forget about chasing merits and just enjoy talking about Bitcoin to people, then the merits will come to you.

[fanatic26]

Can someone explain to me the actual purpose of this system and why everyone cares so much about arbitrary forum titles?

1. This smerit thing, people are already offering to trade/sell/whatever which makes its original purpose moot.

2. Trust, titles, and merit are all completely pointless when the forum allows people to sell forum accounts.

3. There is so much scammy, weird activity on this forum already instead of basing trust off of these things, people should by default not trust anyone. This just gives another avenue for someone to fake their contributions in an attempt to rip others off.

[coolcoinz]

Can someone explain to me the actual purpose of this system and why everyone cares so much about arbitrary forum titles?

The main purpose is to stop account farmers. Now you won't be able to rank up if you spam short sentences in off-topic. Like these guys, and many others:

cool

No, I don't!

There are numerous reasons.
1. Some people need high level accounts to scam. They think starting a promotional thread, campaign, ICO, auction, whatever, requires an aged account. In fact some newbies might see aged accounts as trustable, believe that those people know what they're talking about.
2. Campaigns. Some people are here for the money. They see the forum like a type of faucet where they'll get paid for solving captchas, bumping threads, and so on. In fact, that's what some ICO bounties are asking them to do. I've seen campaigns that were forcing people to post in the ANN thread and results looked like this: love the project, great dev, good luck.

people should by default not trust anyone.

That's the golden rule of the Internet.

[fanatic26]

I appreciate the reply but im still unclear on it. Some of the people on these forums with the oldest accounts and the most posts often give out extremely dumb advice. It took me about an hour on this forum to realize that all those side stats were meaningless.

Personally for the second part, I think all of the sales of accounts and the campaign garbage should be banned. I see it about the same as a bum picking change up off the sidewalk. They are actively harming the user experience to make a few pennies. Instead of solving the problem, they make these complicated workarounds when you can just ban the people doing it in the first place.

[ChinkyEyes]

I first joined this forum to participate in a betting competition. I then started learning about bitcoin and I decided to give campaigns a try. I mean, if there was a chance to win some coins while participating in this
I guess that this is why the new system will probably work. Users actually need to carefully read posts and try to engage in forum discussions right now, otherwise they will not be able to receive or give merit. You now need to try to be part of this community and really talk to other users, and this is a good thing.

That's really mature of you.
When I first saw the merit system I didn't think to much of it, especially because I barely post in the Meta section. I had the same reaction as you at first, oh shit it's going to take me ages to reach Hero status. Because the whole reason I used to post was for bounties. But since the merit system I have been trying much harder to earn merit and to contribute valuable content to this wonderful and weird place. So in a way the merit system has changed my posts in a good way I think. I don't care much about reaching hero/legendary anymore, because as how I see it i'm already lucky that i'm senior and can earn BTC through campaigns. With the merit system I have to be more involved in topics and I have to say it has increased my knowledge of crypto by a lot.

Only thing I regret is blowing my load of merit to quickly

[elpsycongree]

It is greatly appreciated if you guys can guide me to how I can really make a quality post worth giving merits to

I just had a quick look at your post history. The last post that isn't about merit and is in English is this:

Eliminating the banks in the world is an impossible task, I must say. Banks are ruled by the richest people in the world and I think it'll be easy for them to manipulate the market if they wish so. If we're going to think about it, the market is affected by the news. Those news "misunderstood" by the people.

It's on page 34 of a thread called "Can we totally eliminate all the banks in this world?".

Did you read all 34 pages and decide that nobody had already said exactly what you did?
Do you think anybody else is ever going to read all 34 pages to get to your post?

Most of your posts follow the same pattern, just spamming your first thoughts on the subject title which hundreds of other spammers have already done before you.

Try reading a thread before posting. Engage in discussion rather than just posting your opinion. Forget about chasing merits and just enjoy talking about Bitcoin to people, then the merits will come to you.

Ohh I see what you're talking about, I think I'm starting to understand what you're talking about now.. Also, I want to ask what are your opinions about the number of required merits to have past Member to rank? Isn't it too much of a gap to achieve? I think that the scalability should be the same with activity.

[TheQuin]

Ohh I see what you're talking about, I think I'm starting to understand what you're talking about now.. Also, I want to ask what are your opinions about the number of required merits to have past Member to rank? Isn't it too much of a gap to achieve? I think that the scalability should be the same with activity.

The merit requirements are proportional to the activity requirements.

Rank	Required activity	Required merit
Brand new	0	0
Newbie	1	0
Jr Member	30	0
Member	60	10
Full Member	120	100
Sr. Member	240	250
Hero Member	480	500
Legendary	Random in the range 775-1030	1000

The merit requirement for Sr. and above is slightly more than activity, but the requirement for Full Member is slightly below. The biggest adjustment to this is that the requirement for Member has been reduced from around 50 to 10. I think this was done so as not to be a disincentive to noobs.