[Apr 2024] Fees are HIGH, wait for opportunity to Consolidate your small inputs

[LoyceV]

People can use it, blocks are mined, and transactions are confirmed, it's just that it's not cheap and the ones paying more are favored.
Ordinals or no ordinals the same would have happened if you would have had 100 million trying to use it daily.
Demand and offer!

I know Bitcoin currently can't scale to 100 million daily users. But we won't get anywhere near that if currently only a few real transactions per block can get confirmed. Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think it's right that commercial spammers are destroying Bitcoin's usability.

Its not broken but main chain sends are too expensive for small amounts .

It's also too expensive for large amounts now. I wouldn't want to pay $1000 if I have to pay $100 (or more) in transaction fees. That's just not sustainable.

USA has Zelle for no coiners you can easily send up to $1000 for free in under 5 minutes,  Bank to Bank with a linked phone number.

IN THE USA Zelle crushes btc for a small under 1 k send see below. sends on the 18th and 19th both under 5 minutes and free.

I've made free ^{(except for a monthly fee)} bank payments for as long as I can remember. But I don't like banks, and fiat money is designed to be inflationary. I don't want that. But I also don't want electronic money that's too expensive to use.

Look on the bright side, if btc overcomes this attack, it will become even stronger.

I don't expect Bitcoin to disappear over this, but I do expect "collateral damage": the only reason the Ordinal hype/scam uses Bitcoin, is to leech off it's good name. "Bitcoin" sounds a lot better than "some made-up shitcoin with low fees". And once it collapses (which is inevitable), some people will blame Bitcoin. It taints Bitcoin's name. On top of that, if private transactions are too expensive, even more people will keep "their" Bitcoin on exchanges, or ETFs. What's left of the "peer to peer electronic cash" promise if the majority of Bitcoin "users" can't really use it?

[1714753684]

1714753684

[cryptosize]

Dejavu:



Source: https://books.google.gr/books?id=wRo_E812FNcC&pg=PA17&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

Packet-switched networks not only survived (contrary to doomsayers' predictions), but also packet-switching became the norm for voice transmission (VoIP).

[Pmalek]

We don't know for sure if it's a conspiracy against BTC (do BCH/BSV lovers still hodl sizeable amounts of "worthless" BTC?), but it could be a (slight?) possibility, I guess.

It isn't their only motivation, but it is one of them. I remember watching a podcast back when Ordinals were just in their beginning stage. Some big-blocker spammer was talking about the scalability issues of the main protocol and how they wanted to fix it but couldn't. He said something like, you wanted to keep Bitcoin in its current state, here you go, enjoy Ordinals. We wouldn't have these congestions if the community accepted a block size increase. That's the impression and overall feeling I took from that video.

I know Bitcoin currently can't scale to 100 million daily users. But we won't get anywhere near that if currently only a few real transactions per block can get confirmed. Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think it's right that commercial spammers are destroying Bitcoin's usability.

Same here! And that's what they are, spammers. They might be following consensus rules, but they are sill filling up blocks with spam and not with the transactions the blockchain was meant for. We currently don't have many P2P monetary transfers of digital coins in blocks. So, Bitcoin isn't really functioning as it's supposed to. Before someone says, yes it is, I don't consider having to pay 150 sat/vByte to move my coins a normal operation just because someone out there is posting bananas and is willing to overpay for it.

[Poker Player]

... I don't consider having to pay 150 sat/vByte to move my coins a normal operation just because someone out there is posting bananas and is willing to overpay for it.

But do you think this madness is sustainable over time? Those who overpay for putting images of bananas in the blockhain can do it for two reasons, for the revenge of not having increased the size of the blocks or because you hope that someone more retarded than you will pay you much more money in the future for the bananas (or both).

Few people are going to make money with this, rather their banana images will tend to be worth 0 and those who put images in the blockchain for that reason will stop doing it. The question is when, because they have been doing it for a while now. And if someone is doing it as revenge they can already be a billionaire because it can get very expensive. If you have a more modest net worth, not billions, at some point you will have to stop.

Another thing is that regardless of this, bitcoin is not going to be a cash p2p as it was conceived, for many reasons, the main one being that you tend to save what is valuable, not to spend it.

[apogio]

Loll, I didn't realize there is an extra, I thought it was 3,600 not 3,600,000.

Just for fun, if anyone wants to see the "records" in fees (I don't know why, but I was curious to see it), you can run bitcoin-cli getblockstats <block_height>.

For instance, for the halving block (840,000):

Code:

>> bitcoin-cli getblockstats 840000
{
  "avgfee": 1234031,
  "avgfeerate": 3770,
  "avgtxsize": 762,
  "blockhash": "0000000000000000000320283a032748cef8227873ff4872689bf23f1cda83a5",
  "feerate_percentiles": [
    108,
    134,
    200,
    350,
    1063
  ],
  "height": 840000,
  "ins": 3764,
  "maxfee": 799987800,
  "maxfeerate": 3604819,
  "maxtxsize": 166989,
  "medianfee": 34800,
  "mediantime": 1713570208,
  "mediantxsize": 266,
  "minfee": 2060,
  "minfeerate": 15,
  "mintxsize": 150,
  "outs": 9716,
  "subsidy": 312500000,
  "swtotal_size": 2318332,
  "swtotal_weight": 3964249,
  "swtxs": 3023,
  "time": 1713571767,
  "total_out": 135995397232,
  "total_size": 2325218,
  "total_weight": 3991793,
  "totalfee": 3762561499,
  "txs": 3050,
  "utxo_increase": 5952,
  "utxo_size_inc": 450713,
  "utxo_increase_actual": 3919,
  "utxo_size_inc_actual": 308963
}

The "maxfeerate": 3604819 indicates the fee record on this block which was 3604819 just like BlackHatCoiner mentioned above in the discussion.

[LoyceV]

I don't consider having to pay 150 sat/vByte to move my coins a normal operation just because someone out there is posting bananas and is willing to overpay for it.

What truely amazes me is that people are willing to pay the spammers for this. It must be profitable, which means the tens of millions of dollars they pay per day are paid by their victims. Who are those people who'd rather "invest" in a made-up story about unique satoshis than just buy real Bitcoin?
The reason must be marketing. Spammers who spend and earn millions have a huge budget to advertise their BS, while real Bitcoin doesn't get ads.

[Pmalek]

But do you think this madness is sustainable over time?

Not in this quantity. Only time will tell. The Ordinals attack has been going on for 1.5 years already. People have gotten tired of it, and now we have something else those good-for-nothings are throwing their money on which is obviously attracting the wrong type of people to Bitcoin.

Those who overpay for putting images of bananas in the blockhain can do it for two reasons, for the revenge of not having increased the size of the blocks or because you hope that someone more retarded than you will pay you much more money in the future for the bananas (or both).

It's both.

What truely amazes me is that people are willing to pay the spammers for this. It must be profitable, which means the tens of millions of dollars they pay per day are paid by their victims. Who are those people who'd rather "invest" in a made-up story about unique satoshis than just buy real Bitcoin?

You know the saying: "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups". I think it was George Carlin who said that.

[un_rank]

...while real Bitcoin doesn't get ads.

And does not need it. This HYIP feeds of hype, like a hit and grab. They make it look all very attractive to investors, easy money, real use case of bitcoin or any other bs they are selling. People catch on after a while and they lose the market.

Bitcoin has survived this far and thrived this much without ads. The real ones find their way around.

- Jay -

[LoyceV]

...while real Bitcoin doesn't get ads.

And does not need it. This HYIP feeds of hype, like a hit and grab.

It also feeds on Bitcoin's name. That's the problem.

[Synchronice]

Interesting conclusion of yours. So you're adding your own poop to the pile of shit whatever name tag it has (Ordinals, Runes, ...)?
You instantly lost my respect, welcome to my evil list...

C'mon man, don't be so fast, don't be so rough. I can't draw stupid paintings and I don't have any dumb JPEG images in my computer, so, you know, it was a joke, don't worry, I am too anti-ordinals to do that.

So, this was the record for the day?

Nope. The record of the day is easily this: https://mempool.space/tx/2bb85f4b004be6da54f766c17c1e855187327112c231ef2ff35ebad0ea67c69e. 3.6 million satoshis per vbyte. This person paid more than 6.732 bitcoin in transaction fee. It's the top transaction of the halving block. I guess you can call it the rarest Ordinal, or whatever they're called.  

I'm curious as to who will give more than $400,000 (!!!) for an Ordinal.

Why does someone care about whether their ordinals transaction will be N1 in 840000's block or not? Yes, it's a halving block and has a gold color on mempool.space but does it really matter? Does it bring any value?
By the way, I don't understand the point of this transaction: https://mempool.space/tx/152b928e97bb9e874da1bd4abdf766ae0cdc7a2f260dad5542967cb414c58489
He or she sent 0.00001100 BTC but paid 7.99 BTC as transaction fee. I mean, why? Are ordinals worth much if they pay high transaction fees? Does TX fee value increases their value? Or why are they so crazy to pay so much in fees when there is absolutely no need of that and they can include their transaction with paying way less.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Here are some important reminders for the lot of us: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5493652.0.

But do you think this madness is sustainable over time? Those who overpay for putting images of bananas in the blockhain can do it for two reasons, for the revenge of not having increased the size of the blocks or because you hope that someone more retarded than you will pay you much more money in the future for the bananas (or both).

There is no revenge, and even if there was any, it is simply not worth the money. It is just greater fool's theory 101. People risk millions of dollars for more in return. Not idealistic reasons, not BS. Just human greed.

Why does someone care about whether their ordinals transaction will be N1 in 840000's block or not?

Why do people throw coins in fountains and make wishes? Why do they send coins to Satoshi's address? Why do they pay outrageous amounts of money for baseball cards? Because it's not reasoning that drives the market. It's emotions.

[NeuroticFish]

I guess I was wrong. The spam from the ordinals/runes garbage is way bigger than I've expected (I thought others eg miners are also heavily involved).
I didn't know the numbers and I've read this thing today:

As of block 840081, since the halving, there have been 420,570 non-coinbase txs. Of these, 360,065 (85.6%) are runes only, 1,832 (0.44%) are inscription reveals only, 1,625 (0.39%) are both, and 57,048 (13.6%) are neither.

Note that neither may still include inscriptions that have not been revealed yet. Such txs are indistinguishable from any other taproot transaction.

Runes only txs have paid 764.27 BTC in fees, inscription reveals 4.163 BTC, txs doing both 44.25 BTC, and txs doing neither 187.07 BTC.

[JeromeTash]

Sometimes these fee rate adjustments do not make sense at all, and what is even more funny is that the adjustments are done just a few minutes apart. Like, who does this kind of stupid thing?
The fee rate is already high enough for the TX to be confirmed in the next block, but then someone goes ahead and keeps bumping it  
https://mempool.space/tx/2ce96a9c96a26c548bd4b3f97cfe70ebe447cfedf2d0d44b9fdb01365a3e500b



Runes Ruining the Bitcoin Network

[stompix]

I know Bitcoin currently can't scale to 100 million daily users. But we won't get anywhere near that if currently only a few real transactions per block can get confirmed. Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think it's right that commercial spammers are destroying Bitcoin's usability.

And if the fees are high there will be no more usage since nobody will be interested in adjusting or adapting to a costly payment solution, again the usual dilemma, we don't scale because it would be costly for nodes, if we don't scale is bad for traffic, and probably another decade will pass and the same discussion will be with every major hype of something building on the chain.

I've made free ^{(except for a monthly fee)} bank payments for as long as I can remember. But I don't like banks, and fiat money is designed to be inflationary. I don't want that. But I also don't want electronic money that's too expensive to use.

Yeah, banks have adapted everywhere, the myth of banking transactions being expensive as hell is so 1999.
The only advantage I don't see any other payment type beating Bitcoin on is international payments completely outside trading zones like the EEU for example, but it won't be long till even that is beaten, I can already pay via a card a WU pick in minutes transfer that with pretty cheap fees, so the clock is ticking for it too.

We might have to consider Bitcoin will mainly an investment or a hedge against inflation and that's it!

Look on the bright side, if btc overcomes this attack, it will become even stronger. If btc gets destroyed like this, then it would mean btc never had any chance to start with.

Bitcoins still works flawlessly, as I said attack or whatever you call this the protocol is not affected, transactions happen, confirmation happens, blocks are getting mined, Bitcoin can't be brought down by this thing and it will never be! The moment trust starts to go away so will the transactions, so will high fees, and everything will be back as it was and trust will be back again!

I guess I was wrong. The spam from the ordinals/runes garbage is way bigger than I've expected (I thought others eg miners are also heavily involved).
I didn't know the numbers and I've read this thing today:

Runes only txs have paid 764.27 BTC in fees, inscription reveals 4.163 BTC, txs doing both 44.25 BTC, and txs doing neither 187.07 BTC.

No wonder we're most likely going to have a positive difficulty adjustment. Fees...Yummmyyyy!

[LoyceV]

Don't be like this guy: he paid 0.15351 BTC to send 0.06574732 BTC. Be smart with Coin Control!

[mindrust]

Bitcoins still works flawlessly, as I said attack or whatever you call this the protocol is not affected, transactions happen, confirmation happens, blocks are getting mined, Bitcoin can't be brought down by this thing and it will never be! The moment trust starts to go away so will the transactions, so will high fees, and everything will be back as it was and trust will be back again!

I wouldn’t call that “flawless” since being able to make cheap transactions was one of bitcoin’s core features for years and now it is not here anymore.

Do bitcoin execute the code flawlessly? Yes it does. But eth did execute its code flawlessly too and then vitalik didn’t like it so it was forked.

What I am trying to tell you is that executing the code flawlessly doesn’t mean it is working perfectly or more importantly, properly. They are not the same concepts.

[cryptosize]

Don't be like this guy: he paid 0.15351 BTC to send 0.06574732 BTC. Be smart with Coin Control!

Nobody said Bitcoin is going to fix IQ issues!

[LoyceV]

Current blocks: about 90% spam:


This graph (also from mempool.space) shows the inflow of new transactions (in vbyte/second):

This strengthens my theory that it's one person behind it. If different people would be doing this many transactions, I'd expect a more even inflow without high peaks.

[Synchronice]

It's not about fees but since this thread turned into Ordinals discussion, I'll ask here:
1. Does anyone know what are the most popular Bitcoin Ordinals marketplace websites? Or where can I see how many Ordinals are traded daily? I know that I can check mempool and see transactions but I want to know besides creating new ordinals, how many of them are traded (bough and sold).

Sometimes these fee rate adjustments do not make sense at all, and what is even more funny is that the adjustments are done just a few minutes apart. Like, who does this kind of stupid thing?

I had the same question. There is a possibility that it's a bot with bad configuration. I have seen way worse fees than what you shared. Mempool is full of transactions that had recommended fee and then fee was increased up to 100 times with multiple RBFs. That doesn't make sense to me. Imagine, recommended fee is 100 sat/vByte, then someone uses RBF and increases it up to 200 sat/vByte, then up to 1000 sat/vByte, then up to 5000 sat/vByte and so on, within minutes.

[examplens]

This strengthens my theory that it's one person behind it. If different people would be doing this many transactions, I'd expect a more even inflow without high peaks.

I vote for Vitalik Buterin.
Some kind of revenge for all the suffering the Ethereum network went through with NFTmania. He certainly has the money for this kind of venture  

Or just some geniuses started uploading resources for their gaming platform.