Hardware device and protocol for seeding and verifying Provably Fair gaming

[Dabs]

@elm, there are some bitcoin casinos now that offer the games you mentioned. You can check them out and even play them a bit, then decide if you still want to do it (always room for more) or not.

If you ever decide to do Poker though, I'd like to help you make it provably fair. It's implementation is much more difficult and involved than all other games I have seen. Roulette, Dice, BJ, Slots are all easy to make provably fair.

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[Cudahuda]

Take a look at sites like Bitzino.com, SatoshiDice.com, and PrimeDice.com and look at their provably fair or verification tabs and see if you can understand how they calculate their rolls.  You would need a programer to design something similar for your site.

[elm]

@Dabs

we dont have experience with Poker so we dont touch it. but thanks for Your kind offer.

@Cudahuda

I took a look at those 3 links You posted. those casinos are not attractive at all. we  think that players should see nice animations of dice, roulette, BJ or Slots like in real world.

lets take prime dice for example, I see there all the time bets scrolling. how can I know that those are for real? they show even the fun players there with outcome .000000

regarding the client seed, do I need to change the client seed number before every bet I do?

we really like the provably fair idea very much because we also think that the player should not be cheated and he needs to know for every wager he is placing that he is not cheated. but all those BTC casinos are not attractive at all. not to say terrible (please dont kill me). why is that?

anyone is welcome to jump in this discussion to help us to find the way to bring our provably fair casino online

cheers

[Dabs]

May I suggest that if you use some sort of animation, it is only cosmetic and does not actually affect the result. In other words, do not use a "Live Dealer".

You could make a 3D render or animation of the dice. Lots of 3D games now, with realistic physics, such as car racing games. You see all those cars crash, tumble, roll, explode, etc. Or all these first person shooter games.

In fact, in the Hitman series of games, some of your targets are inside Casinos and you can see them playing or something like that.

What other casino games are you thinking of? Most or all of them involve chance, which is where "Provably Fair" excels at.

[elm]

@Dabs

I understood that Live dealer isn't provably fair  so we will not take it. but please understand that we want an online casino provably fair with BTC but for all online casino users and not only for the BTC community although we want to use BTC only.

please let me show you what I understand under an attractive roulette
http://www.scasino.com/en/casino-games/table/3d-roulette.html

other games (beside roulette)we would like to offer are BJ, Slots, Sic Bo and if You have one interesting one in mind please let me know

[Dabs]

@elm, you can make the live dealer provably fair, but it requires that you control this live dealer (ie, she is an employee of your casino), and the changes needed will make the game last longer. They will have to uniquely mark each card, OR you have a special deck with barcodes or RFID or something similar to prove to players that the deal is fair.

All the games in that website are nice and attractive. They are also all house games (they even have casino poker). You should try the multiplayer versions.

[elm]

@elm, you can make the live dealer provably fair, but it requires that you control this live dealer (ie, she is an employee of your casino), and the changes needed will make the game last longer. They will have to uniquely mark each card, OR you have a special deck with barcodes or RFID or something similar to prove to players that the deal is fair.

All the games in that website are nice and attractive. They are also all house games (they even have casino poker). You should try the multiplayer versions.

@Dabs

for me it doesnt make sense to make Live Dealer Provably Fair because as You mentioned it the games will last longer and for a casino time is money.

did You mean the Casino Hold'em? that they offer? and I saw now that the games are from Playtech. I found another nice BTC online casino http://www.bitcoincasino24.com/games/roulette/european

the games are very nice designed. but interesting is that it is Bitcoin and not Provably fair.
I asked them in another forum why he didnt do it provably fair. it could be that his games provider doesnt have this option or is not allowing it.

I would like to ask You about merchant service provider, do You know an easy and reliable provider for accepting payments and pay outs?

cheers

[Dabs]

@elm, this is already going off-topic, but if your site is accepting bitcoin (and only bitcoin), you have everything you need in bitcoind / bitcoin-qt. While you could tie up with online wallets, I don't recommend them, except maybe just a few.

[elm]

@elm, this is already going off-topic, but if your site is accepting bitcoin (and only bitcoin), you have everything you need in bitcoind / bitcoin-qt. While you could tie up with online wallets, I don't recommend them, except maybe just a few.

@Dabs

question for merchant service provider = off topic?  so I am sorry for this, didnt want to hijack the thread. I will open a new thread to ask for it.

[Stephen Gornick]

In a very brief chat with someone familiar with casino operations I inquired about the potential that some day a player-owned device would be used to participate in "provably fair" gaming on physical gaming systems (e.g., video slots, video poker machines, etc.)    I was told that the use of mobile phones and other electronics were not permitted in certain areas of a casino.   The purpose of that was to prevent player cheating at table games and for restrictions related to the casino's sportsbook.

The most interesting part of the conversation was the assertion that players should not be worried about the casino cheating.  "Just trust us".  Heh, we've heard that before.

[Dabs]

There is a parallel here, for example, in relation to the underground marketplaces:

1. You can have it centralized. You have to trust the site. And trust the operator does disappear or get arrested or whatever.
2. It is fully decentralized.

In 1. the site makes money off commissions or rake or house edge or something.
In 2. well, it's decentralized ... thus casinos don't have an incentive. unless there was the equivalent of mining for games.

Implementing a decentralized game where anyone can play anytime anywhere any site... it would work as long as there are "houses" or dealers.

Someone mentioned a decentralized poker platform, where everyone gets a chance to be a dealer. Every dealer gets his own table. As players, you can pick the table. It's still the same thing except instead of large massive sites, you just broke it down to per table or per dealer.

It's possible to have a decentralized dice platform, but the incentive to play depends on how large you can possibly win or the bankroll of the dice holder. Maybe it becomes player versus player dice games, and there is a discussion about that already (attempting to exclude the need for a trusted third party to escrow the coins and the dice roll result.)

@Stephen, I think the problem here is a way to either standardize the calculations for provable fairness such that it can be implemented across a wide range of games, or a method to submit "firmware" or "rules" from casinos to such devices for their own unique games.

It boils down to having machine interpretable code similar to the "about" or "verify" pages of existing bitcoin casino websites.