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Author Topic: The market effect of Tether collapse - and our survival strategy  (Read 384 times)
yo_mama (OP)
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February 04, 2018, 08:55:31 AM
Last edit: February 04, 2018, 09:15:19 AM by yo_mama
 #1

So, some people suspect that Tether is running fraction reserve and pumping BTC price, and they expect Tether to collapse at some point.
If this truly happens, what will be its effect on the cryptocurrency market? It seems there are a few different perspectives:

(1) Tether assets only comprise a little portion (under 5%) of total cryptocurrency market cap, so the effect on other cryptocurrencies is minimal. Only Tether alone will crash, just like the case of Bitconnect.

(2) Tether is not an ordinary cryptocurrency like Bitconnect, but it's used to run markets and buy other coins. Because Tether was used to buy bitcoin, and the fake Tether pumped Bitcoin price (if the conclusion of "Tether Report" is accurate), most Bitcoins purchased with Tether should be considered to have little value, and doesn't worth the price labeled.
So, bitcoin price will go down together with USDT. The % drop in BTC market cap should be close to the amount of Tether ever printed. But altcoins will not be affected, because most USDT was used to purchase Bitcoin instead of altcoin.

(3) Same reasoning as (2), but both bitcoin and altcoin price will go down, because many altcoins were purchased with the price-inflated bitcoin too. These altcoins are indirectly pumped with fake Tether. The % drop in total market cap of all cryptocurrencies should be close to the amount of Tether ever printed---and that means: 1. the % price drop in BTC should be lower than in (2), and 2. the % price drop of most coins will not be significant (maybe less than 15%) because the loss is distributed over all cyptocurrencies.

(4) Same reasoning as (2), but altcoins will crash along with BTC at even greater magnitude, not because of the reasoning in (3), but simply due to the mysterious correlation in altcoin price and BTC price (likely due to market speculation?). This price correlation can be seen in the past year, and it's quite strong.

(5) Exactly the same reasoning as (3), but instead of a 15% dip, the market will have a total crash, because of people's fear and panic sell, and plus some manipulation by whales.

(6) Instead of simply a price crash, the situation will be different on each exchange:
On the exchanges using USDT and no actual fiat (like Bittrex and Binance), USDT holders will find that the only way they can cash out fiat USD is first selling USDT for other crypto currencies like BTC and ETH. So, the BTC:USDT and ETH:USDT exchange rates will be pumped like crazy, as people bank run--not for fiat but for BTC and ETH.
However, on exchanges using only fiat USD instead of Tether (like GDAX/Coinbase, and p2p exchanges like Localbitcoins), the price will be stable, because they didn't touch Tether at all.
***If this is true, what will happen to the exchange rates of altcoins : BTC, on those Tether-traded exchanges? Will they be pumped together (because of trading bot action), or drop because of panic sell?
***On the Tether-traded exchanges, will the pump in BTC:USDT rate temporary or permanent? (I guess it's permanent because USDT will crash and lose the $1 value after all? And the exchanges might close USDT market afterwards?)

(7) Same reasoning as (6), but the fiat-traded exchanges like GDAX will see price crash, for the reason stated in (2) (3), and people's fear and panic sell. So, BTC:USD rate (the "real price") will free fall, but BTC:USDT rate will moon?  Huh Shocked Grin
***And what happens to altcoin prices? Crash even harder than BTC?

(8.) Same reasoning as (6), but on the fiat-traded exchanges, crypto:USD rate (the "real price") will initially be temporarily pumped, because of some weird bot action---maybe some trading bots watch the price on other big exchanges (mostly trading Tether), misinterpreting the insane increase in crypto:USDT rate as "all coins mooning", and activate buy mode?
And after that quick short-live bot pump on fiat-traded exchanges, human traders realize what happened, then stop the bot and panic sell, sending the price free fall?
***And what happens to altcoin prices in this situation?

(9) The Tether collapse is not alone, but at the same time combined with other negative factors such as additional crypto-related tragedy (like government announces to collect crypto tax) or fake news, all at the manipulation of big bad whales in coordination with malicious governments. The overall effect will be the same as (7) -- a total market crash, with USDT value falling to zero.

(10) There won't be a sudden market crash, because Tether collapse will gradually happen in multiple stages, over a period of weeks, months or even years. The reasons:
- Many frauds get revealed this way.
- If any government agency decides to investigate Tether, the process will likely be long.
- There are too many factors involved in the Tether matter, reaching a firm conclusion is not easy.
During each stage, some news about Tether is released, either positive or negative, and market moves accordingly.
And it may be mixed with other cryptocurrency related events, causing further price swing.
Now there are 2 cases:
(10 a) If Tether collapse happens in weeks, its impact on market is more "concentrated" and intense. Tether collapse alone can cause a month-long or even year-long bear market, with multiple big price dips, combined with some small bull traps Grin, but the overall trend is down.
(10 b) If Tether collapse happens over years, its impact on market is dispersed over a long time, and diluted. So each stage, bad news about Tether will temporarily drag down the market, but long term trend is unpredictable.
And we are currently at the first stage...


So many possibilities.... I'm quite lost now.  Huh Undecided

What do you guys think?

AND don't forget the most important question: what actions should we -- the ordinary humble traders -- take, in such situations, to stay SAFE, minimize loss, or even possibly make big profit?? Panic sell all crypto for fiat immediately upon detecting the Tether crash? Sell for fiat NOW when the crash hasn't happened? Or HODL, with the possible danger of HODLing into a giant bag, or 3-year bear market? Grin
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yo_mama (OP)
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February 04, 2018, 09:11:12 AM
Last edit: February 14, 2018, 05:51:16 AM by yo_mama
 #2

News: Bitfinex is planning to build decentralized exchanged on EOS.
This is concerning.
http://blocktribune.com/crypto-exchange-bitfinex-build-decentralized-exchange-eos-io-platform/


======================================================
Wow, my post just sinks so quickly....
So many users online..

I believe my post has some depth, the topic is very serious, and needs some attention and discussion.

Or are people too impatient to read the long text, and don't bother replying?

 Sad
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February 04, 2018, 10:00:32 AM
 #3

(n) If Tether is not backed by dollars, it will collapse at the start of a strong bull run. People who sold BTC at $19000 for Tether will be exchanging their Tether for twice as much BTC at $9500. On exchanges with no peg, this will push down the price of Tether. Arbitragers will take this cheap Tether to exchange(s) where it is pegged. If there is full dollar backing, Tether company can simply buy it all back and all will be well. (Or more likely, the company can buy BTC off exchange for dollars, and then buy back the USDT with BTC.) Without full backing, the peg will break and the price of USDT will collapse. If the exchange(s) keep quoting the peg, then BTC on those exchange(s) will climb.

If the bull market proceeds slowly with many ups and downs, keeping the timid on the sidelines, then an unbacked Tether can survive. The timid will be buying back fewer BTC at a higher price than when they sold.

So - it all depends on the "shape" of the market recovery.
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February 04, 2018, 10:56:43 AM
 #4

You are mistaken when thinking that BTC price will drop in proportion to the unbacked Tether used to buy.  It will fall MUCH harder than that.  The market doesn't move in that way, it isn't money in money out it's about sentiment, liquidity and volume.  If the Tether fraud is actually true then BTC is going to go into freefall unfortunately.  It is also not possible to accurately predict the bottom.  The knock on effect could be catastrophic in the short term as it opens the possibility that any and all crypto coins and tokens are severely manipulated.

Long term it is advantageous because it forces people to look deeply into what they are investing in and do heavy due diligence into everything.


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February 04, 2018, 11:00:45 AM
 #5

AND don't forget the most important question: what actions should we -- the ordinary humble traders -- take, in such situations, to stay SAFE, minimize loss, or even possibly make big profit?? Panic sell all crypto for fiat immediately upon detecting the Tether crash? Sell for fiat NOW when the crash hasn't happened? Or HODL, with the possible danger of HODLing into a giant bag, or 3-year bear market? Grin


I don't believe in a 3-year bearish market at all. My choice is to HODL anyway. In 2018 the crypto market will attract even more money than in 2017 so there is no opportunities to sink very deep imo.

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February 04, 2018, 10:35:18 PM
 #6

I don't believe in a 3-year bearish market at all. My choice is to HODL anyway. In 2018 the crypto market will attract even more money than in 2017 so there is no opportunities to sink very deep imo.

So you are betting bull on crypto... That really needs some courage now.
But I still hope it can collapse this year so I can buy them cheap in this final round of limited time discount  Grin
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February 04, 2018, 10:55:27 PM
 #7

I don't believe in a 3-year bearish market at all. My choice is to HODL anyway. In 2018 the crypto market will attract even more money than in 2017 so there is no opportunities to sink very deep imo.

So you are betting bull on crypto... That really needs some courage now.
But I still hope it can collapse this year so I can buy them cheap in this final round of limited time discount  Grin
Not sure about limited time discount. Tether is more popular rather than use real dollar pair in various exchange sites. That means if tether was becoming the worst part of its bad news about the reserved funds.
I think that tether gives a lot of impact on the majority of crypto. Another down will come as soon as possible. bittrex will try to remove tether pair. this is a complete part to make another big bearish soon.

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February 05, 2018, 06:35:02 AM
 #8

Not sure about limited time discount. Tether is more popular rather than use real dollar pair in various exchange sites. That means if tether was becoming the worst part of its bad news about the reserved funds.
I think that tether gives a lot of impact on the majority of crypto. Another down will come as soon as possible. bittrex will try to remove tether pair. this is a complete part to make another big bearish soon.

Do you have any source about Bittrex delisting Tether pair??

Sounds like the real storm is coming.
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February 06, 2018, 08:01:33 AM
 #9

(n) If Tether is not backed by dollars, it will collapse at the start of a strong bull run. People who sold BTC at $19000 for Tether will be exchanging their Tether for twice as much BTC at $9500. On exchanges with no peg, this will push down the price of Tether. Arbitragers will take this cheap Tether to exchange(s) where it is pegged. If there is full dollar backing, Tether company can simply buy it all back and all will be well. (Or more likely, the company can buy BTC off exchange for dollars, and then buy back the USDT with BTC.) Without full backing, the peg will break and the price of USDT will collapse. If the exchange(s) keep quoting the peg, then BTC on those exchange(s) will climb.

If the bull market proceeds slowly with many ups and downs, keeping the timid on the sidelines, then an unbacked Tether can survive. The timid will be buying back fewer BTC at a higher price than when they sold.

So - it all depends on the "shape" of the market recovery.

This is a truely thoughtful answer.

But looks like no one is paying attention to Tether now? All hooked by the bloody crash and government/bank actions?
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February 06, 2018, 09:26:40 AM
 #10

Can anyone tell what are the guarantees, if any, that Tether won't switch to fractional reserves?
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February 06, 2018, 02:09:24 PM
 #11

Can anyone tell what are the guarantees, if any, that Tether won't switch to fractional reserves?

From the Tether Terms of Service (updated in January):

No Representations & Warranties by Tether: Tether makes no representations, warranties, or guarantees to you of any kind. The Site and the Services are offered strictly on an as-is, where-is basis and, without limiting the generality of the foregoing, are offered without any representation as to merchantability or fitness for any particular purpose.
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February 06, 2018, 04:36:08 PM
 #12

In recent weeks there have been very negative news for the world of cryptocurrencies, I hope that Tether becomes more transparent and that there is no collapse because it would be a disaster for the entire industry
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February 06, 2018, 11:41:42 PM
 #13

Can anyone tell what are the guarantees, if any, that Tether won't switch to fractional reserves?

From the Tether Terms of Service (updated in January):

No Representations & Warranties by Tether: Tether makes no representations, warranties, or guarantees to you of any kind. The Site and the Services are offered strictly on an as-is, where-is basis and, without limiting the generality of the foregoing, are offered without any representation as to merchantability or fitness for any particular purpose.

So looks like on legal paper Tether doesn't guarantee it's 1:1 backed by USD.
Now it looks like collapse of Tether is more likely than not.

Such toxic terms of service. Basically it prevents you from taking legal actions against them if Tether collapses and causes you heavy loss. Even if you sue them you'll likely lose in court.
Dirty but "standard" business practice.
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February 07, 2018, 12:26:45 AM
 #14

Or, is it totally possible that Tether will be "safe"  by the end?
Tether is now burning their tokens:
https://cryptovest.com/news/bitcoin-cash-strange-transaction-appears-on-tether-minting-wallet/

That means, if tether secretly burn all fake tokens now, any investigation later will only find that Tether is indeed running 1:1 backup.
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February 07, 2018, 12:29:21 AM
 #15

Isn't tether collapse good for bitcoin cause everyone exits out of tether, but i have not been seeing that happening.

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February 07, 2018, 01:06:41 AM
 #16

Isn't tether collapse good for bitcoin cause everyone exits out of tether, but i have not been seeing that happening.

This is what hypothesis (6) says:

Quote
On the exchanges using USDT and no actual fiat (like Bittrex and Binance), USDT holders will find that the only way they can cash out fiat USD is first selling USDT for other crypto currencies like BTC and ETH. So, the BTC:USDT and ETH:USDT exchange rates will be pumped like crazy, as people bank run--not for fiat but for BTC and ETH.

That would be a strange situation, but likely it won't last long because people then panic sell BTC for fiat.
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February 07, 2018, 01:49:11 AM
 #17

AND don't forget the most important question: what actions should we -- the ordinary humble traders -- take, in such situations, to stay SAFE, minimize loss, or even possibly make big profit?? Panic sell all crypto for fiat immediately upon detecting the Tether crash? Sell for fiat NOW when the crash hasn't happened? Or HODL, with the possible danger of HODLing into a giant bag, or 3-year bear market? Grin


I don't believe in a 3-year bearish market at all. My choice is to HODL anyway. In 2018 the crypto market will attract even more money than in 2017 so there is no opportunities to sink very deep imo.

I dont any other good choice than holding.
I know every choice has their own risk and nothing is no risk here so we have to be wise to do something here.
If we think the money that we invest here can afford to loss so i think holding will not hurt you as holder.
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February 07, 2018, 02:20:15 AM
 #18

AND don't forget the most important question: what actions should we -- the ordinary humble traders -- take, in such situations, to stay SAFE, minimize loss, or even possibly make big profit?? Panic sell all crypto for fiat immediately upon detecting the Tether crash? Sell for fiat NOW when the crash hasn't happened? Or HODL, with the possible danger of HODLing into a giant bag, or 3-year bear market? Grin


I don't believe in a 3-year bearish market at all. My choice is to HODL anyway. In 2018 the crypto market will attract even more money than in 2017 so there is no opportunities to sink very deep imo.
the op statement is very correct, if we hodling and buy back, then 3 years to come we will bring one giant bag of profits.
we will ask them, hey where are you in 3 years  Huh Shocked

enjoy for a moment and we'll smile back, I'm sure in Q2.
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February 11, 2018, 04:59:08 PM
 #19

So, did bitfinex provide evidence or is tether a scam?

I think such a collapse would significantly change the price reality. Clearly, few hundred million injected in the market at moments of long bear run would change bear into bull. Then you step out slowly to reenter again for another bull. This is much more than 2bn. Thisnwould inflate the whole crypto
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February 14, 2018, 05:20:26 AM
 #20

Ha, Jordan Belfort (the real life Wolf of Wall Street guy who did the $200 million pump and dump) says this whole cryptocurrency mania is a giant pump and dump, orchestrated by Tether/Bitfinex.

Quote
He told The Street that the only way to keep issuing new cryptos was to “keep bitcoin up high enough so people still believe in cryptocurrency so they create the illusion of prosperity”. “This is what I did, I’m sad to say, at Stratton,” he said.

Belfort said it was “not just a matter of saying, if there’s not as much tether we have to subtract $US3000 out of bitcoin”. “It’s not that, it’s much worse than that,” he said. “Because what you’ll see is that they used tether to artificially support the market of bitcoin, thereby dragging more suckers into the game.

“...... I don’t think bitcoin itself is a fraud, it never was a fraud, it’s what people do to bitcoin that’s a fraud. It lends itself to being manipulated.”

http://www.news.com.au/finance/money/investing/its-going-to-be-really-bad-jordan-belfort-slams-cryptos-as-pumpanddump-schemes/news-story/80f292d0a378ac0c79fed84ff64357f2

See the interview video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlBa5liuy9Q&t=627s
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