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Author Topic: [closed] Bitcoind Pooled Mining Association  (Read 16419 times)
Anonymous
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January 25, 2011, 01:09:58 AM
 #41


All the more reasons to create pools by meeting the people in real life and verifying them personally. Also the only machine that needs to be audited is the one holding the bitcoin client administering the pool, the miners themselfs can be torn down and reset up in a matter of minutes, no point in securing them too much. Using a PXE setup we can even go further and just plug the miners in and they'll install and run everything from a RAM drive (machine fails => reboots and registers at the master) making administration a breeze. Also regular payouts to the members decrease the temptation to take over the master. Monitoring hashing performance and adding statistical tools to make the system verifiable should suffice for the members, only a judge board has to know the technical details.

I understand about not needing too much security on the client, meeting face to face wont work for this club, we are too distributed across the globe.

My only worry is the operator taking the mining machine for himself. But I think we should continue forward with this ASAP.

Who want's to be the machine operator? I will pay a bonus from my mined bitcoins to the person for this role.

ColdHardMetal why not go for the accountant role? Specialisation of labour.


Theymos has offered to host the machine for 25btc a month plus the power etc. Of course anyone can put their name forward when the time comes,  It is a meritocracy . Smiley

Have a look on the wiki where ArtForz has recommended  hardware which means each mining box would be $1500-$1800

We can stack them or theymos can get cheap aluminium shelving to store them on.


My only reservation when setting up similar operations is that the operator of the miner should be highly trusted particularly when members are located all over the globe.


I think once the hardware cost is covered more shares can be issued in more hardware. You would then be getting all the profits from the first miner while the second one covers its own costs etc...etc...

Its a self replicating thing....Once you have 2 clusters then you can have 4 the 8  then 16  Smiley
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January 25, 2011, 02:01:11 AM
 #42

Quote from: ColdHardCash
Maybe not all members, but a certain quorum percentage if that's feasible. That way if someone disappears the whole thing doesn't become deadlocked.

This can be done no problem, if the secret is shared between for example, 10 people, we can set it so that 7 people are needed to unlock it (we can have this number higher or lower, it can be changed).



Theymos has offered to host the machine for 25btc a month plus the power etc.

Have a look on the wiki where ArtForz has recommended appropriate hardware which means each mining box would be $1500-$1800

We can stack them or theymos can get cheap aluminium shelving to store them on.


My only reservation when setting up similar operations is that the operator of the miner should be highly trusted....which theymos is.


I think once the hardware cost is covered more shares can be issued in more hardware. You would then be getting all the profits from the first miner while the second one covers its own costs etc...etc... Grin

Sorry I can't find any information about the hardware cost, is there a link, that cost seems very low.

I don't know Theymos, but if you say he is trustworthy then that is the best we have, so for this I am go.

About the issue of shares, I am working on the trading platform right now. I hope to have it ready (with enough functionality to issue shares at least) in time. If not then that is not a problem, we can use signed certificates. The platform will allow for payment of dividends, and voting by share owners.

I recommend we issue 8000 shares at 1btc each, this will mean that each of us can buy the shares we wish but it also means that we can tap the bitcoin market for people who only have a few bitcoins but wish to be able to use it. 1btc is a low barrier of entry and should make it easy for us to fill the hole if there are not enough high level investors (like us).

It also means we can jump start our market/trading platform which will be, over the long term if it is successful, more profitable than mining.

I also think that all btc generated should be paid out as dividends, and that if we want to get more hardware we must issue more shares. This will allow for members to choose between reinvestment or to take their earnings. It will also mean more trading on our platform if our venture is profitable.

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January 25, 2011, 02:43:00 AM
 #43

He must forfeit something to the other users that is of high value (maybe more bitcoins) as a kind of deposit that he may get back over time (for example after everyone has earned back their investment,I also have no problem with the operator being paid an extra btc bonus, once off after a certain time if they prove to be trustworthy).

I won't agree to a large, long-term deposit, since the venture is risky and investors may never earn back their investments.

I'm concerned with what happens when the club or I end our agreement. Who pays for shipping? Or should the parts be sold?

Since the machine will be at my house and not in any sort of colocation facility, there will inevitably be downtime due to conditions beyond my control. Something about this should be specified in the agreement.

I will not select hardware, since I don't know enough about it. The club will have to direct me there. I can set up the OS or the club can provide a network boot image.

I am happy to operate the machine, though I am certainly open to competition from people who can offer better rates or facilities.

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Anonymous
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January 25, 2011, 03:05:37 AM
 #44

Those figures are based on US vendor prices as they always get hardware cheaper.  Smiley

Anonymous
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January 25, 2011, 03:50:40 AM
 #45

He must forfeit something to the other users that is of high value (maybe more bitcoins) as a kind of deposit that he may get back over time (for example after everyone has earned back their investment,I also have no problem with the operator being paid an extra btc bonus, once off after a certain time if they prove to be trustworthy).

I won't agree to a large, long-term deposit, since the venture is risky and investors may never earn back their investments.

I'm concerned with what happens when the club or I end our agreement. Who pays for shipping? Or should the parts be sold?

Since the machine will be at my house and not in any sort of colocation facility, there will inevitably be downtime due to conditions beyond my control. Something about this should be specified in the agreement.

I will not select hardware, since I don't know enough about it. The club will have to direct me there. I can set up the OS or the club can provide a network boot image.

I am happy to operate the machine, though I am certainly open to competition from people who can offer better rates or facilities.

I think the parts should be sold imo.

Added some more info about hardware . Most of it can be sourced from newegg. If people can find an equivalent part cheaper feel free to add it.
http://bitcoind.org/mediawiki/index.php/Building_the_miner.#Suggested_hardware_.28ArtForz.29



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January 25, 2011, 04:19:33 AM
 #46

He must forfeit something to the other users that is of high value (maybe more bitcoins) as a kind of deposit that he may get back over time (for example after everyone has earned back their investment,I also have no problem with the operator being paid an extra btc bonus, once off after a certain time if they prove to be trustworthy).

I won't agree to a large, long-term deposit, since the venture is risky and investors may never earn back their investments.

I'm concerned with what happens when the club or I end our agreement. Who pays for shipping? Or should the parts be sold?

Since the machine will be at my house and not in any sort of colocation facility, there will inevitably be downtime due to conditions beyond my control. Something about this should be specified in the agreement.

I will not select hardware, since I don't know enough about it. The club will have to direct me there. I can set up the OS or the club can provide a network boot image.

I am happy to operate the machine, though I am certainly open to competition from people who can offer better rates or facilities.

It doesn't matter about you having to forfeit something, noagendamarket says you are trustworthy for this then it is not an issue. If you run away with the machine we will have to kill him.

OK a hardware list can be drawn up, with appropriate prices etc.

Some downtime in acceptable, just not too much, how much is too much I don't know. Is there a way you can be contacted if you are not at home to let you know the machine is down?

When we end our agreement.... we should have a minimum period for the agreement, maybe 6months. At the end we can either continue for another period, or sell the equipment (for cash or bitcoin), or if we have found someone else ship it to them. I think we should pay for the shipping if that is the choice.

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January 25, 2011, 04:45:23 AM
 #47

Is there a way you can be contacted if you are not at home to let you know the machine is down?

You can email me.

Bitcoin Block Explorer's server had an uptime of 128 days before I recently did some maintenance on it. I have had some extended power outages and ISP trouble in the past, though.

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January 25, 2011, 08:14:55 AM
 #48

I've put draft version 2.0 of the bylaws into the wiki which can be found here: http://bitcoind.org/mediawiki/index.php/Bylaws

The main changes where fleshing out the Voting section and defining some new duties of the Officers. I also included some additional Interpretation items which allowed me to clean up the language and avoid some repetition in the rest of the document.

There are a few items regarding the use of Public Key signatures that need work since I don't really know much about that. It might be sufficient to just say something will be signed with a PKS without getting into the process or specifying the methods used to do that.

Again please post your comments etc here.

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January 25, 2011, 08:17:33 AM
 #49

I'm working on some financial cash flow projections and I need some help. I'm not sure how to figure out how much power the mining rig will use each day. I probably could, but I know someone else already knows how, so if they could post the calculation here I can build it into the spreadsheet and save a little time.

Thanks.

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January 25, 2011, 08:38:50 AM
 #50

I'm working on some financial cash flow projections and I need some help. I'm not sure how to figure out how much power the mining rig will use each day. I probably could, but I know someone else already knows how, so if they could post the calculation here I can build it into the spreadsheet and save a little time.

Thanks.

With 4 graphics cards the rig can be expected to use around 1200W per hour, that by 24 is your answer.

I'll have a look at the bylaws a little later, Im busy now.

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January 25, 2011, 08:47:24 AM
 #51

I'm working on some financial cash flow projections and I need some help. I'm not sure how to figure out how much power the mining rig will use each day. I probably could, but I know someone else already knows how, so if they could post the calculation here I can build it into the spreadsheet and save a little time.

Thanks.

With 4 graphics cards the rig can be expected to use around 1200W per hour, that by 24 is your answer.

I'll have a look at the bylaws a little later, Im busy now.

So 1.2 kWh which I then multiply by the $/kWh number on the bill from the power company to get the cost. Perfect.

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January 25, 2011, 08:47:37 AM
 #52

Added some more info about hardware . Most of it can be sourced from newegg. If people can find an equivalent part cheaper feel free to add it.
http://bitcoind.org/mediawiki/index.php/Building_the_miner.#Suggested_hardware_.28ArtForz.29

That's a good choice on the MB.  I'm using it in one of my miners.  There is enough space between the PCIe connectors that you can get some airflow between the GPU cards.  The only thing you have to watch out for is the outside GPU card which will be close to the side of the case and may not get enough air.  It might not be too tight in that particular rack case.  I ended up using a tower case with ventilation holes in the bottom.

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January 25, 2011, 12:14:00 PM
 #53

I'm adding a feature that will allow anyone to add its own asset in my bitcoin asset exchange plateform.  I'm too lazy to finish it today, but I promess it will be done for tomorrow.

http://grondilu.freeshell.org/brokerage.cgi
Not my point, I'd like to see the setup being disclosed publicly and the legal framework to be open so that other groups can start and create their own pools,

Well, that's a relief.  Because I'm still too lazy to work on this right now.  It will be done, but not today.
Anonymous
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January 25, 2011, 01:58:42 PM
 #54

Should have some polls setup soon so we can gather feedback from everyone who is interested.

The main questions are how many rigs to setup and whether this should be started as an association or an investment club . You can read the page here http://bitcoind.org/mediawiki/index.php/Mining_Association which raises a valid point about the pros and cons of the structure we end up with.

Thanks to whoever added that to the wiki.  Smiley


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January 25, 2011, 06:58:55 PM
 #55

Some of the points mentioned in the mining association page are not an issue, such as securities law, it is up to us whether we want to follow any laws set by outside governments(which government? where is our club located?, in cypherspace, it is like being in a different world), they won't be able to enforce anything.

We don't want to incorporate outside the bitcoin economy, at least not yet, this adds extra; many extra costs and delays. If this is the route taken then most of us would be better off just building our own machine.

The easiest, fastest way to raise btc for this project is to sell dividend paying shares. At the very worst this can be done semi-manually (digitally signing shares, collecting bitcoin addresses to pay to etc.), but this is something I am building into my trading platform.

The dividend paying share will also have voting features(using signatures), that is it will be easy to vote on motions and verify those votes.

We sell the shares, the users buy the shares, we build the miner, start making btc, and start paying out.

I don't know who made that page(there is no username, noagendamarket can you change the settings so that only registered users can edit pages on the wiki) but I think that is a poor argument, things are moving much faster in the bitcoin economy than in the mainstream, we can't do things the way they  are normally done (we don't have any way to enforce our rules with courts or police and we're so distributed that there is no point in even trying to do things the old world way), take some useful conventions (shares, double entry accounting, auditing, some company roles etc.) and forget the rest.

On a related topic, the motherboard and psu choice in the hardware section are bad. There are a few motherboards that have four PCIE 2.1 x16 slots (MSI890-GD70), this means that it can have 4 graphics cards(instead of just two). And because of this the PSU needs to be more powerful, over 1250W

We can expect to pay around $3000 for a 4 x ati5970 mining machine.

The wiki page, "expressions of interest" is not needed. Essentially once we have our plan and structure in place, we can announce the selling of shares. Those of us here who are involved can prebook at a fixed price for a specific number of shares prior to launch. The rest we can make available for bidding (I will be building that into my platform also, if it is not ready at that time we can use biddingpond). If our "club" or whatever we want to call is going to be profitable then everyone who has bitcoins will buy shares.

I also think there should be another position in the club, if we are going to be basing so much on technology and cryptography we need a Technology Officer.

Roles include ensuring methods, uses, and protocols of cryptographic tools (or software in general) used or developed are sound and secure. As well as conducting any "cyber auditing" that needs to be done.

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January 25, 2011, 10:59:15 PM
 #56

I'd be considering becoming an investor.

Also, I have experience in marketing if you need to grow / expand it in any point of time.

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January 26, 2011, 01:35:08 AM
 #57

Some of the points mentioned in the mining association page are not an issue, such as securities law, it is up to us whether we want to follow any laws set by outside governments(which government? where is our club located?, in cypherspace, it is like being in a different world), they won't be able to enforce anything.

We don't want to incorporate outside the bitcoin economy, at least not yet, this adds extra; many extra costs and delays. If this is the route taken then most of us would be better off just building our own machine.


As long as we keep it private and we aren't trying to solicit funds from Joe Public we can pretty much do whatever we want in my opinion. I did change the bylaw language to move away from "Shares" and "Shareholders" at the suggestion those might be loaded terms for some people. Now participants will be Members which is more reflective of the club nature of the organization anyway.


The easiest, fastest way to raise btc for this project is to sell dividend paying shares. At the very worst this can be done semi-manually (digitally signing shares, collecting bitcoin addresses to pay to etc.), but this is something I am building into my trading platform.

The dividend paying share will also have voting features(using signatures), that is it will be easy to vote on motions and verify those votes.

We sell the shares, the users buy the shares, we build the miner, start making btc, and start paying out.

Yes, all of this.

I also think there should be another position in the club, if we are going to be basing so much on technology and cryptography we need a Technology Officer.

Roles include ensuring methods, uses, and protocols of cryptographic tools (or software in general) used or developed are sound and secure. As well as conducting any "cyber auditing" that needs to be done.

You're not the first to mention this type of role. I'll add something into the bylaws later today. I think it makes a lot of sense to have.

Anonymous
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January 26, 2011, 01:48:10 AM
 #58

Some of the points mentioned in the mining association page are not an issue, such as securities law, it is up to us whether we want to follow any laws set by outside governments(which government? where is our club located?, in cypherspace, it is like being in a different world), they won't be able to enforce anything.

We don't want to incorporate outside the bitcoin economy, at least not yet, this adds extra; many extra costs and delays. If this is the route taken then most of us would be better off just building our own machine.

The easiest, fastest way to raise btc for this project is to sell dividend paying shares. At the very worst this can be done semi-manually (digitally signing shares, collecting bitcoin addresses to pay to etc.), but this is something I am building into my trading platform.

The dividend paying share will also have voting features(using signatures), that is it will be easy to vote on motions and verify those votes.

We sell the shares, the users buy the shares, we build the miner, start making btc, and start paying out.

I don't know who made that page(there is no username, noagendamarket can you change the settings so that only registered users can edit pages on the wiki) but I think that is a poor argument, things are moving much faster in the bitcoin economy than in the mainstream, we can't do things the way they  are normally done (we don't have any way to enforce our rules with courts or police and we're so distributed that there is no point in even trying to do things the old world way), take some useful conventions (shares, double entry accounting, auditing, some company roles etc.) and forget the rest.

On a related topic, the motherboard and psu choice in the hardware section are bad. There are a few motherboards that have four PCIE 2.1 x16 slots (MSI890-GD70), this means that it can have 4 graphics cards(instead of just two). And because of this the PSU needs to be more powerful, over 1250W

We can expect to pay around $3000 for a 4 x ati5970 mining machine.

The wiki page, "expressions of interest" is not needed. Essentially once we have our plan and structure in place, we can announce the selling of shares. Those of us here who are involved can prebook at a fixed price for a specific number of shares prior to launch. The rest we can make available for bidding (I will be building that into my platform also, if it is not ready at that time we can use biddingpond). If our "club" or whatever we want to call is going to be profitable then everyone who has bitcoins will buy shares.

I also think there should be another position in the club, if we are going to be basing so much on technology and cryptography we need a Technology Officer.

Roles include ensuring methods, uses, and protocols of cryptographic tools (or software in general) used or developed are sound and secure. As well as conducting any "cyber auditing" that needs to be done.


I set the wiki to be edited by registered users only.

Can you add your preferred build to the wiki so people can compare and improve it ?

http://bitcoind.org/mediawiki/index.php/Building_the_miner.

Im also adding a page for organisational roles that people can put their names down for or can add ones they think would help.



If there is a role you can see in the association that you think you can help with feel free to claim it.

For instance a graphic artist is needed to help with logos and images.


If the share issue is oversubscribed is it ok to release more ? Are people worried their vote will be diluted ?  In my mind the larger the rig we can do the better returns everyone will have.
Anonymous
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January 26, 2011, 02:12:49 AM
 #59

I'd be considering becoming an investor.

Also, I have experience in marketing if you need to grow / expand it in any point of time.


What sort of ideas do you have in mind?

You could do the social networking if you like. So far only a twitter account and quora are setup. I can give you access if you take up the role.

Might be good to have someone answering questions from people who bring up issues . Even a Get Satisfaction page for bitcoind ?





Anonymous
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January 26, 2011, 03:06:55 AM
 #60

afaik we stayed away from 4 gpu cards in one machine because it requires custom cooling....

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