Butterfly Labs announcing new preorder marketplace

[YipYip]

Maybe.............a preorder stock market    Buy/sell/trade your preorders today!!!!!!  

Wrap em up like the banks did mortgages & sell em all over the world 

It all makes sense ..this is the "AH HAH" moment where they have created a new trading derivative

"THE NEVERENDING PREORDER"

These guys really are genius...I am serious ...From the years of the long con with his Lottery scam ..he KNOWS exactly how far & long you can push people when it comes to greed & once you have them on the hook

He is NEVER going to let them off without getting his pound of flesh !!

 

[razorfishsl]

It is all bullshit.
They had no intention of meeting all current pre-order deliveries by the end of september 2013.

It just shows the stupidity and lack of thinking ability,(or the real issue), bit like those assembly machines they wasted money on.

Instead of assembling the product, allow the customer to take  a kit of parts or just the main boards, that way you don't need workers to do assembly, that is
Unless you need a bottle neck, because the boards won't meet the hashing rates.

[AussieHash]

Credit : gif from reddit

[Bicknellski]

It is all bullshit.
They had no intention of meeting all current pre-order deliveries by the end of september 2013.

It just shows the stupidity and lack of thinking ability,(or the real issue), bit like those assembly machines they wasted money on.

Instead of assembling the product, allow the customer to take  a kit of parts or just the main boards, that way you don't need workers to do assembly, that is
Unless you need a bottle neck, because the boards won't meet the hashing rates.

Inefficiency, waste and mismanagement all great ways to make the BTC / USD evaporate. I wonder if some of these actions are on purpose?


Either way BFL are SHADY characters aren't they?

[PuertoLibre]

[Crazy Speculation]

MOTHERFUCKERS!

It was bullshit that was ssssooooo well crafted. That even my BS detector couldn't understand the scope of the scam.

Holy shit, BFL figured out a way to have [newer] customers pay for the refunds.

========================
The Scam Defined (IMO):

They (BFL) don't even have to touch their own bank to set this up. It is genius, true scam genius.

They open up "a marketplace" for old pay date holders and newer pay date holders to get together and send money to each other. (thereby keeping BFL out of the refund loop). Later pay date holders source $$$ and send the refund money to early pay date holders.

The newer customers under the illusion that they still want [nearly obsolete] hardware earlier than their current pay date (April 2013 for example) will go into the marketplace and therefore will seek an "Early Pay Date" in the market place (lets say October 2012). They will opt to send money (the disguised customer-to-customer refund process) to the buyer with an earlier pay date (october 2012). Thereby moving themselves up in the queue.

The original buyer with the *Early pay date* then steps out of line and drops out of BFL as a customer. (they got their refund from another customer...not BFL)

Then the buyer with the later pay date (April 2013) is then going to sells his/her *Later pay date* (April 2013) on the very same market place to someone with an even later pay date (lets say another pay date holder for July 2013).


======================


In effect, BFL has found an ingenious way to keep the apparent ponzi going without putting their own bank accounts as the source of the funds.

Newer Customers now refund older customers in their bid to get an early spot in this ongoing ponzi-like structure!

Madoff would be damn proud!

[YipYip]

It is all bullshit.
They had no intention of meeting all current pre-order deliveries by the end of september 2013.

It just shows the stupidity and lack of thinking ability,(or the real issue), bit like those assembly machines they wasted money on.

Instead of assembling the product, allow the customer to take  a kit of parts or just the main boards, that way you don't need workers to do assembly, that is
Unless you need a bottle neck, because the boards won't meet the hashing rates.

The criminality of this all scares me...Sonny has learnt a lot from the many years honing his craft as the LONG CON master

ASIC is just a vehicle he uses ..."LOTTERY WIN" "MONEY PRINTING MACHINE" the same pathological drivers are their ...GREED,FEAR,Hope for a better life ...he knows exactly how to play to the human psych

The PRE_ORDER marketplace was ALWAYS in teh works.... the ability to keep perpetuating this never ending cycle of NON delivery is amazing .....THIS GUY NEEDS to be locked up as he is a menace to society..

[Philj6970]

I just went to put my 7g/h order 6/6/13 up for sale and the classified section at BFL is locked...

[Unacceptable]

It is all bullshit.
They had no intention of meeting all current pre-order deliveries by the end of september 2013.

It just shows the stupidity and lack of thinking ability,(or the real issue), bit like those assembly machines they wasted money on.

Instead of assembling the product, allow the customer to take  a kit of parts or just the main boards, that way you don't need workers to do assembly, that is
Unless you need a bottle neck, because the boards won't meet the hashing rates.

The criminality of this all scares me...Sonny has learnt a lot from the many years honing his craft as the LONG CON master

ASIC is just a vehicle he uses ..."LOTTERY WIN" "MONEY PRINTING MACHINE" the same pathological drivers are their ...GREED,FEAR,Hope for a better life ...he knows exactly how to play to the human psych

The PRE_ORDER marketplace was ALWAYS in teh works.... the ability to keep perpetuating this never ending cycle of NON delivery is amazing .....THIS GUY NEEDS to be locked up as he is a menace to society..

Anyone wanna bet Sonny is NOT the "mastermind"........anymore........ 

Who knows Bitcoin better than him Who knows what drives miners better than him Who knows the Bitcoin community better than him   Hmmmmm........................

[YipYip]

It is all bullshit.
They had no intention of meeting all current pre-order deliveries by the end of september 2013.

It just shows the stupidity and lack of thinking ability,(or the real issue), bit like those assembly machines they wasted money on.

Instead of assembling the product, allow the customer to take  a kit of parts or just the main boards, that way you don't need workers to do assembly, that is
Unless you need a bottle neck, because the boards won't meet the hashing rates.

The criminality of this all scares me...Sonny has learnt a lot from the many years honing his craft as the LONG CON master

ASIC is just a vehicle he uses ..."LOTTERY WIN" "MONEY PRINTING MACHINE" the same pathological drivers are their ...GREED,FEAR,Hope for a better life ...he knows exactly how to play to the human psych

The PRE_ORDER marketplace was ALWAYS in teh works.... the ability to keep perpetuating this never ending cycle of NON delivery is amazing .....THIS GUY NEEDS to be locked up as he is a menace to society..

Anyone wanna bet Sonny is NOT the "mastermind"........anymore........ 

Who knows Bitcoin better than him Who knows what drives miners better than him Who knows the Bitcoin community better than him   Hmmmmm........................

There is a definite collaboration going on...

All I can say is that Josh is now one EVIL fucking Mofo.... as he has now been trained by one of the best criminal minds i have seen

(Once again Crypto turns in a movie set ....)

Hey maybe we should check teh records..Was not Sonny in state fed with MAddoff ??

ALso here is the current cast for...da..da...dah....da..da..dah

 "Coin WARZ............. the ASICS strike back "

Sonny is "The Sith Emperor"
Josh is "Darth Vader"
Yifu is Luke

Except this version Luke turns to the dark side & stays there ..lolz

Is so bad its funny

Except for... imagine if u are one of teh Mininrig guys who have poured 100k into this cluster fuck

[BBQKorv]

So this is where all pro-BFL can circlejerk with their non-delivered techologically outdated preorders?

I feel good about going with BitFury instead, my rigs are hashing away after 40 days of ordering and using only <0.7W/GH while beeing passively cooled.
It seems like a good idea to fold with BFL and ask for a refund from my point of view.

[TooDumbForBitcoin]

Will it work like this?

Alice Ellen Krauss (AEK) pays 20 BTC ($12 USD each) in September of 2012 for a 5Gh/s miner preorder.
Tired of waiting in September of 2013, AEK sells her preorder to Carol Grace Miller (CGM) for 3BTC ($120 each), figuring she's $100 ahead, or so.

So AEK gives 20 BTC to the middleman in 9/12.
CGM gives 3 BTC to AEK in 9/13, and AEK calls it quits.

Who's the middleman between AEK and CGM that keeps the other 17 BTC, which are now worth about $2000 total?

And is it a coincidence that the chief ombudsman of bitcointalk is being hosted about the same time all this is happening?

(ANN)  Group Buy on life insurance for one particular woodsman.  Expiring in 2 days (the Group Buy, that is).

[01BTC10]

They never stop to amaze me.

[kakobrekla]

They never stop to amaze me.

AMAZING COMPANY!!

[erk]

The marketplace has changed. There is no point ordering anything from BFL anymore until they actually have stock on hand.

The ROI on BFL pre-orders has been terrible, most people will not make the money back they have paid out for the pre-order because of the slow production line. The practical solution is not to order. I am not suggesting don't buy BFL, just don't pre-order, wait until they have stock so you can punch into a Bitcoin calculator and work out if it's worth buying. The gen1 product is obviously not worth buying unless they at least halve the price. The Monarch quite likely will not be worth buying if it ships in February. Best hold on to your money until February and then make the calculation. You could easily find BFL will have to halve the price of the Monarch in February to be competitive, so it would be crazy to pay for it now.

I know other ASIC vendors will be reducing their prices before the end of the year. KNCminer have already announced price reductions on Nov delivery.

The ASIC industry is coming up for a massive shake out, the winner will be the companies that have stock on hand.

Selling places on a pre-order queue is absurd.

[creativex]

Will it work like this?

Alice Ellen Krauss (AEK) pays 20 BTC ($12 USD each) in September of 2012 for a 5Gh/s miner preorder.
Tired of waiting in September of 2013, AEK sells her preorder to Carol Grace Miller (CGM) for 3BTC ($120 each), figuring she's $100 ahead, or so.

So AEK gives 20 BTC to the middleman in 9/12.
CGM gives 3 BTC to AEK in 9/13, and AEK calls it quits.

Who's the middleman between AEK and CGM that keeps the other 17 BTC, which are now worth about $2000 total?

Theoretically these were liquidated by bitpay when AEK placed the original order and the proceeds, less fees, were sent on to bfl, but we don't know with any degree of certainty as bfl has never(to my knowledge) defined their arrangement with bitpay.

[Beta-coiner1]

The one thing I have to say is that BFL as a company concerning their tactics don't reflect very well on BTC as a whole considering US lawmakers are looking at what sort of regulation should be in place.I don't think BFL will last 2 more years and some might actually be prosecuted under US law.

[PuertoLibre]

Will it work like this?

Alice Ellen Krauss (AEK) pays 20 BTC ($12 USD each) in September of 2012 for a 5Gh/s miner preorder.
Tired of waiting in September of 2013, AEK sells her preorder to Carol Grace Miller (CGM) for 3BTC ($120 each), figuring she's $100 ahead, or so.

So AEK gives 20 BTC to the middleman in 9/12.
CGM gives 3 BTC to AEK in 9/13, and AEK calls it quits.

Who's the middleman between AEK and CGM that keeps the other 17 BTC, which are now worth about $2000 total?

Pretty much.

Except that whoever invented this gamble of a strategy must also know there are very grave, potentially fatal (to BFL as a business) problems.

The first problems is obvious, this could accelerate refunds rather than slow them down!

------------------------

Let me explain,

If people like CGM in your recent example can't sell off their September 9/2013 paydate on the very same market, then they are 10 times more likely to ask for a refund (and actually get it). They are probably still within the refund window which paypal or CC companies will still take them seriously.

-------------------------
Another gamble that opens the door to a refund "double tap":

The other gamble is that BFL must realize that payment processors like Visa, Mastercard, AmEx etc, won't stand for BFL's reshuffle of orders. A CC company expects BFL to keep accurate records on customer orders.

If AEK (Order date 9/2012) sells to CGM her order spot (Order date 9/2013) and BFL changes the name AND Address of the order to CGM's name. (Which you shouldn't do because a CC company won't protect you if you do this!)

Well....after receiving payment from CGM...AEK could ask for her refund from her CC company and leave CGM without both her money and a legitimate order spot. When BFL has to respond to the CC company about the chargeback they will have to announce that the payment on file now belongs to CGM and not AEK.

The CC company is going to be bewildered as to how BFL expects a payment to be switched over to another customer. What will likely ensue is that the CC company will say that they don't give a damn who the order was transferred to in BFL internal order system, they have AEK as the payment and they will issue AEK a refund at BFL's expense.

Leaving CGM without her order spot, minus a large amount of $$$.

CGM will then probably seek a refund from BFL for her own order paydate (9/2013) and BFL will get a second chargeback.

The only one who would come out ahead in the double tap scenario will be AEK. Who got her ROI the instant she sold her order and then asked for a refund regardless for the 9/2012 pay date.

BFL won't really have much of a defense about shuffling their payment processors orders.

=========================

It is all a gamble that hinges on no one figuring out these vulnerabilities. Quite the gamble!

[kevinm]

Speculatively Translated:

We have a retention problem. People aren't willing to wait until the order queue is fully processed. So they are "bailing on us" for other companies with better offers and forcibly pulling money out of our bank accounts.

We couldn't figure out a way to keep them waiting in line and leaving with their money. We are letting people with spots closer to being serviced in the backlog to sell off their order numbers for some monetary sum. Which means we will keep our newer customers and give "added" value to those who no longer want their orders. (thereby circumventing the forced refund process)

So go along with us. We need this cash. We need to keep our newer customers and our cash flow is probably running real low.

Transfer your unwanted position in line for some cash and keep us solvent, pretty please!

(This is my personal interpretation behind the bullshit.)

That is very good for my Chi

cheers,
kev

[Ridicuss]

Will it work like this?

Alice Ellen Krauss (AEK) pays 20 BTC ($12 USD each) in September of 2012 for a 5Gh/s miner preorder.
Tired of waiting in September of 2013, AEK sells her preorder to Carol Grace Miller (CGM) for 3BTC ($120 each), figuring she's $100 ahead, or so.

So AEK gives 20 BTC to the middleman in 9/12.
CGM gives 3 BTC to AEK in 9/13, and AEK calls it quits.

Who's the middleman between AEK and CGM that keeps the other 17 BTC, which are now worth about $2000 total?

Pretty much.

Except that whoever invented this gamble of a strategy must also know there are very grave, potentially fatal (to BFL as a business) problems.

The first problems is obvious, this could accelerate refunds rather than slow them down!

------------------------

Let me explain,

If people like CGM in your recent example can't sell off their September 9/2013 paydate on the very same market, then they are 10 times more likely to ask for a refund (and actually get it). They are probably still within the refund window which paypal or CC companies will still take them seriously.

-------------------------
Another gamble that opens the door to a refund "double tap":

The other gamble is that BFL must realize that payment processors like Visa, Mastercard, AmEx etc, won't stand for BFL's reshuffle of orders. A CC company expects BFL to keep accurate records on customer orders.

If AEK (Order date 9/2012) sells to CGM her order spot (Order date 9/2013) and BFL changes the name AND Address of the order to CGM's name. (Which you shouldn't do because a CC company won't protect you if you do this!)

Well....after receiving payment from CGM...AEK could ask for her refund from her CC company and leave CGM without both her money and a legitimate order spot. When BFL has to respond to the CC company about the chargeback they will have to announce that the payment on file now belongs to CGM and not AEK.

The CC company is going to be bewildered as to how BFL expects a payment to be switched over to another customer. What will likely ensue is that the CC company will say that they don't give a damn who the order was transferred to in BFL internal order system, they have AEK as the payment and they will issue AEK a refund at BFL's expense.

Leaving CGM without her order spot, minus a large amount of $$$.

CGM will then probably seek a refund from BFL for her own order paydate (9/2013) and BFL will get a second chargeback.

The only one who would come out ahead in the double tap scenario will be AEK. Who got her ROI the instant she sold her order and then asked for a refund regardless for the 9/2012 pay date.

BFL won't really have much of a defense about shuffling their payment processors orders.

=========================

It is all a gamble that hinges on no one figuring out these vulnerabilities. Quite the gamble!

The only problem I see with the double tap actually happening is that CGM was supposed to give AEK the payment not BFL.  I very definitely could be wrong on this but its my understanding.

Not trying to pick your post apart. Actually just wondering if I am wrong about this.

Regards,

[PuertoLibre]

The third vulnerability is just like the second scenario:


CC companies do not allow you to send a product to another unregistered address. BFL stopped giving people address changes for that specific reason.

Lets say you moved to another house in the same city, you then contact BFL with your new address that you have moved to, but you fail to contact your CC company with the new address to have it registered on file at the CC company.

When BFL ships you your product to this alternative address, they open themselves up to a dispute that you can then file after you have received your product in hand.

You can simply call the CC company and claim you never received it or that it was sent to the wrong address.

That is why some buyers send items to their friends house. So they can then use this as an excuse to defraud a company with an unregistered address and claim non-receipt.

-----------------------------------------

This very same hole is being opened up by BFL intentionally by shuffling around orders and changing things.

It would probably be very hard to deal with a CC company who rightfully states that their order Payment system shows something entirely different from BFL's ordering system.

BFL saying anything about shuffling orders around won't really hold any water. (IMO)