Butterfly Labs announcing new preorder marketplace

[PuertoLibre]

Will it work like this?

Alice Ellen Krauss (AEK) pays 20 BTC ($12 USD each) in September of 2012 for a 5Gh/s miner preorder.
Tired of waiting in September of 2013, AEK sells her preorder to Carol Grace Miller (CGM) for 3BTC ($120 each), figuring she's $100 ahead, or so.

So AEK gives 20 BTC to the middleman in 9/12.
CGM gives 3 BTC to AEK in 9/13, and AEK calls it quits.

Who's the middleman between AEK and CGM that keeps the other 17 BTC, which are now worth about $2000 total?

Pretty much.

Except that whoever invented this gamble of a strategy must also know there are very grave, potentially fatal (to BFL as a business) problems.

The first problems is obvious, this could accelerate refunds rather than slow them down!

------------------------

Let me explain,

If people like CGM in your recent example can't sell off their September 9/2013 paydate on the very same market, then they are 10 times more likely to ask for a refund (and actually get it). They are probably still within the refund window which paypal or CC companies will still take them seriously.

-------------------------
Another gamble that opens the door to a refund "double tap":

The other gamble is that BFL must realize that payment processors like Visa, Mastercard, AmEx etc, won't stand for BFL's reshuffle of orders. A CC company expects BFL to keep accurate records on customer orders.

If AEK (Order date 9/2012) sells to CGM her order spot (Order date 9/2013) and BFL changes the name AND Address of the order to CGM's name. (Which you shouldn't do because a CC company won't protect you if you do this!)

Well....after receiving payment from CGM...AEK could ask for her refund from her CC company and leave CGM without both her money and a legitimate order spot. When BFL has to respond to the CC company about the chargeback they will have to announce that the payment on file now belongs to CGM and not AEK.

The CC company is going to be bewildered as to how BFL expects a payment to be switched over to another customer. What will likely ensue is that the CC company will say that they don't give a damn who the order was transferred to in BFL internal order system, they have AEK as the payment and they will issue AEK a refund at BFL's expense.

Leaving CGM without her order spot, minus a large amount of $$$.

CGM will then probably seek a refund from BFL for her own order paydate (9/2013) and BFL will get a second chargeback.

The only one who would come out ahead in the double tap scenario will be AEK. Who got her ROI the instant she sold her order and then asked for a refund regardless for the 9/2012 pay date.

BFL won't really have much of a defense about shuffling their payment processors orders.

=========================

It is all a gamble that hinges on no one figuring out these vulnerabilities. Quite the gamble!

The only problem I see with the double tap actually happening is that CGM was supposed to give AEK the payment not BFL.  I very definitely could be wrong on this but its my understanding.

Not trying to pick your post apart. Actually just wondering if I am wrong about this.

Regards,

Previously, BFL was allowing customers to exchange their orders informally. Which means they (BFL) didn't have to change their pre-order books nor the names or the addresses. It was an informal agreement between one customer to another that when BFL sent the order to the re-seller, they (the reseller) would take it upon themselves to forward the order to the new customer.

Now in this recent change, BFL is actively (formally) changing their database and allowing customers access to change the address and name of the order to someone else.

See the previous post as to why this is problematic.

[Xian01]

So this is where all pro-BFL can circlejerk with their non-delivered techologically outdated preorders?
I feel good about going with BitFury instead, my rigs are hashing away after 40 days of ordering and using only <0.7W/GH while beeing passively cooled.
It seems like a good idea to fold with BFL and ask for a refund from my point of view.

 FWIW, I just doubled-down on Bitfury and bought a second 400GH/s rig from BuzzDave for October.

 Don't see anything else as being a reasonable purchase before this year is over.

[erk]

The one thing I have to say is that BFL as a company concerning their tactics don't reflect very well on BTC as a whole considering US lawmakers are looking at what sort of regulation should be in place.I don't think BFL will last 2 more years and some might actually be prosecuted under US law.

That shouldn't be a long term issue, so far only BFL and Avalon have failed to ship as promised, the other ASIC vendors will have an easy opportunity to outperform those two, which should bring back some credibility to the BTC mining hardware industry.

[TooDumbForBitcoin]

That shouldn't be a long term issue, so far only BFL and Avalon have failed to ship as promised, the other ASIC vendors will have an easy opportunity to outperform those two, which should bring back some credibility to the BTC mining hardware industry.

That's most of why I follow these forums.  I'm too dumb for bitcoin, but in a few years things will be quite different from now, and no one will believe the shenanigans going on years 1 through 5 if they weren't here reading it happen.

Being here to read this stuff is like being in Bethlehem a couple thousand years ago, or maybe Sodom and Gomorrah.

BTW, I gotta believe for every one miner that the new ASIC vendors ship, they're gonna put 6, 8, or 10 on line for themselves.  It's a good use of their NRE paid by pre-orders.

[creativex]

BTW, I gotta believe for every one miner that the new ASIC vendors ship, they're gonna put 6, 8, or 10 on line for themselves.  It's a good use of their NRE paid by pre-orders.

Sounds legit. BFL self mine - check. Avalon self mine - check. Bitfury self mine - check. Only one of these actually conducted themselves with integrity. Bitfury announced months ago they'd be self mining their hardware, the other two specifically said they would not mine main net with customer gear.

[klondike_bar]

Speculatively Translated:

We have a retention problem. People aren't willing to wait until the order queue is fully processed. So they are "bailing on us" for other companies with better offers and forcibly pulling money out of our bank accounts.

We couldn't figure out a way to keep them waiting in line and leaving with their money. We are letting people with spots closer to being serviced in the backlog to sell off their order numbers for some monetary sum. Which means we will keep our newer customers and give "added" value to those who no longer want their orders. (thereby circumventing the forced refund process)

So go along with us. We need this cash. We need to keep our newer customers and our cash flow is probably running real low.

Transfer your unwanted position in line for some cash and keep us solvent, pretty please!

(This is my personal interpretation behind the bullshit.)

Sounds painfully correct. Their progress has been incredibly slow, with them moving on a single product (Jalapeno) at an accelerated rate not remotely linear with a different product (singles). It could take them until late october to catch up to July orders, and possibly some time in december before they catch up the last pre-order.

In my opinion, they are simply using new "orders"/pre-orders to keep up with producing orders from 7-12 months earlier.

[erk]

BTW, I gotta believe for every one miner that the new ASIC vendors ship, they're gonna put 6, 8, or 10 on line for themselves.  It's a good use of their NRE paid by pre-orders.

Sounds legit. BFL self mine - check. Avalon self mine - check. Bitfury self mine - check. Only one of these actually conducted themselves with integrity. Bitfury announced months ago they'd be self mining their hardware, the other two specifically said they would not mine main net with customer gear.

BFL never said the would self mine, where is the proof of that? Avalon said from day one they intended to self mine and the reason the entered the hardware market was to respond to BFL to try and balance things out. ASICminer self mine you missed them.

There are far more BTC to be made by selling your mining hardware for BTC than there is mining with it. If BFL can manufacture a  Jalapeno in 10min and sell it for a couple of BTC, and make a BTC profit on each, there is no way that device is going to mine a  BTC for them in months, let alone in 10min.

[YipYip]

The marketplace has changed. There is no point ordering anything from BFL anymore until they actually have stock on hand.

The ROI on BFL pre-orders has been terrible, most people will not make the money back they have paid out for the pre-order because of the slow production line. The practical solution is not to order. I am not suggesting don't buy BFL, just don't pre-order, wait until they have stock so you can punch into a Bitcoin calculator and work out if it's worth buying. The gen1 product is obviously not worth buying unless they at least halve the price. The Monarch quite likely will not be worth buying if it ships in February. Best hold on to your money until February and then make the calculation. You could easily find BFL will have to halve the price of the Monarch in February to be competitive, so it would be crazy to pay for it now.

I know other ASIC vendors will be reducing their prices before the end of the year. KNCminer have already announced price reductions on Nov delivery.

The ASIC industry is coming up for a massive shake out, the winner will be the companies that have stock on hand.

Selling places on a pre-order queue is absurd.

erk ... you have seen the light ...

[YipYip]

So this is where all pro-BFL can circlejerk with their non-delivered techologically outdated preorders?
I feel good about going with BitFury instead, my rigs are hashing away after 40 days of ordering and using only <0.7W/GH while beeing passively cooled.
It seems like a good idea to fold with BFL and ask for a refund from my point of view.

 FWIW, I just doubled-down on Bitfury and bought a second 400GH/s rig from BuzzDave for October.

 Don't see anything else as being a reasonable purchase before this year is over.

Awesome .. U just have to get it out of your system dude

I am going to wait like a vulture...there is a storm of oversupply coming and patience is a virtue 

[YipYip]

BTW, I gotta believe for every one miner that the new ASIC vendors ship, they're gonna put 6, 8, or 10 on line for themselves.  It's a good use of their NRE paid by pre-orders.

Sounds legit. BFL self mine - check. Avalon self mine - check. Bitfury self mine - check. Only one of these actually conducted themselves with integrity. Bitfury announced months ago they'd be self mining their hardware, the other two specifically said they would not mine main net with customer gear.

BFL never said the would self mine, where is the proof of that? Avalon said from day one they intended to self mine and the reason the entered the hardware market was to respond to BFL to try and balance things out. ASICminer self mine you missed them.

There are far more BTC to be made by selling your mining hardware for BTC than there is mining with it. If BFL can manufacture a  Jalapeno in 10min and sell it for a couple of BTC, and make a BTC profit on each, there is no way that device is going to mine a  BTC for them in months, let alone in 10min.

Just when i thought we where getting somewhere ...lolz

WHy not mine with a product right until its at or in NEGATIVE ROI and then ship it to the customer that had PAID for it in the first place...double bite at the cherry

Considering the ringleader Sonny @ camp BFL  has spent time in prison for a 5 year running LONG CON ...you really need to stop and think who you are dealing with...

[creativex]

BFL never said the would self mine, where is the proof of that?

Agreed. BFL never said they would self mine. I have no proof that they never said they would self mine. How could I possibly have proof of what they never said?

[Bicknellski]

BFL never said the would self mine, where is the proof of that?

Agreed. BFL never said they would self mine. I have no proof that they never said they would self mine. How could I possibly have proof of what they never said?

The burden of proof is on those that make the claim.

Did BFL make the claim they are NOT mining the equipment?
Is there evidence that have mined with it?

[creativex]

BFL never said the would self mine, where is the proof of that?

Agreed. BFL never said they would self mine. I have no proof that they never said they would self mine. How could I possibly have proof of what they never said?

The burden of proof is on those that make the claim.

Did BFL make the claim they are NOT mining the equipment?
Is there evidence that have mined with it?

It's not possible to provide proof of what an entity never said.

[Bicknellski]

BFL never said the would self mine, where is the proof of that?

Agreed. BFL never said they would self mine. I have no proof that they never said they would self mine. How could I possibly have proof of what they never said?

The burden of proof is on those that make the claim.

Did BFL make the claim they are NOT mining the equipment?
Is there evidence that have mined with it?

It's not possible to provide proof of what an entity never said.

Read the question.


DID they make the claim? (Your answer is they NEVER made any such claim. My question remains has anyone seen this claim made anywhere by BFL?)

If they did is there evidence to support they lied about it?

[creativex]

BFL never said the would self mine, where is the proof of that?

Agreed. BFL never said they would self mine. I have no proof that they never said they would self mine. How could I possibly have proof of what they never said?

The burden of proof is on those that make the claim.

Did BFL make the claim they are NOT mining the equipment?
Is there evidence that have mined with it?

It's not possible to provide proof of what an entity never said.

Read the question.

DID they make the claim?

If they did is there evidence to support they lied about it?

Read it. Didn't make it past the assertion that someone should be required to prove a negative. It's not possible, so I did not respond to what followed.

I have no idea if they made the claim that they are NOT mining the equipment. I know that before they "shipped" they made the claim that they WOULD NOT mine the equipment on main net. I know too that BFL reps attempt to deceive whenever they attempt communicate so I'd likely consider anything said by such to be without merit, unless and until proven otherwise.

[YipYip]

BFL never said the would self mine, where is the proof of that?

Agreed. BFL never said they would self mine. I have no proof that they never said they would self mine. How could I possibly have proof of what they never said?

OUCH ....erk you should get some ointment on that nasty burn ...lolz

Be gentle he is just discovering that he has been working for the devil when he thought it was jesus.  

[01BTC10]

We expect the order transfer system to be in place by September 10, 2013. We are posting this information now so that you can get a head start posting and selling your order positions in preparation of the launch of this program.

Another delay™ in BLF land. I can't wait to dump my already sold pre-order and call it quit.

[dbasql]

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/classifieds-269/

 

[DyslexicZombei]

Anyone know the latest on this? Haven't heard anything about the rollout that was *supposed* to start on Sept. 10. Went to the site briefly & didn't notice anything new.

Would like to transfer my ebay sold BFL Jally pre-orders to wash my hands of it and be done with it.

2 more weeks^TM?

[01BTC10]

Anyone know the latest on this? Haven't heard anything about the rollout that was *supposed* to start on Sept. 10. Went to the site briefly & didn't notice anything new.

Would like to transfer my ebay sold BFL Jally pre-orders to wash my hands of it and all.

2 more weeks^TM?

My pre-order was transferred dumped the 11 so check in your dashboard.