bustabit – The original crash game

[JollyGood]

I am not sure how something like is even supposed to work. After a licence of any sort is purchased, surely the sale is complete and payment non-refundable after a cooling-off period (if there is one) unless there is serious flaw in the software and the purchaser does not want to patch with any updates.

In your case, simply by returning a licence for a refund simply by asking for the company/website to remove a domain URL from their website does not seem like an appropriate reason for asking to get the money returned, it seems more like an attempt to get highly valued BTC given in lieu of removing the URL.

If there is no legitimate reason or concern to return the licence why would you want to do it or even ask if it is possible to return it?

According to bustabit.com/license.txt there a total of 32 websites that are licensed to run Bustabit's software.

The problem, is that bustabit never actually provided a license. "Umm... Text file" doesn't cut it for real world situations like a serious buyer wanting to check in to things before making a purchase (Looking at the business revenue, number of users, gambling license, SOFTWARE LICENSE).

I have thought deeply about how to remedy this situation this last week.

I hereby call out Bustabit with this question publicly - For the integrity of Bustabit's name, and quite frankly, so people don't get scammed (Because the only buyers that readily accept "Umm... Text File" for a license seem to be ones that would use the purchase to scam others...) can a bustabit licensed website be surrendered (Domain control given to Bustabit & Domain delisted from the "license text file) to Bustabit for a refund of the original license cost (2 BTC) ? And if Bustabit isn't willing to provide a full refund for a product that was sold and never provided - is Bustabit willing to provide a partial refund and finally if so, what would the amount be that they would in fact provide for this situation ?  

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[1714212834]

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[xLays]

I just want to say thank you for the email reminder about my "idle" account. I signed up years ago and I played for months on this site and then I started playing on other new sites and totally forgot about the money that was deposited here.

I got the email... I logged into the site and saw there was still funds and it has grown significantly in value. I then played a few rounds again and won something and was able to withdraw a nice amount to help to repair my car that was damaged in a accident. 

I have encountered similar scenario but with different outcome from other site like crypto.games, IIRC. I also had an idle account on crypto.games before and had some DOGE balance (I'm expecting to have at least 100k Dogecoin). When Dogecoin reached its all-time high, I checked my crypto.games account balance and couldn't see any Dogecoin. Imagine if I could recover those funds doge balance maybe I build my own house now. The last time I remember playing on crypto.games was in 2017 when the price of Dogecoin was only about 50 SAT, if I'm correct. The ATH was almost 0.8 USDT.

[slydexic]

I am not sure how something like is even supposed to work. After a licence of any sort is purchased, surely the sale is complete and payment non-refundable after a cooling-off period (if there is one) unless there is serious flaw in the software and the purchaser does not want to patch with any updates.

In your case, simply by returning a licence for a refund simply by asking for the company/website to remove a domain URL from their website does not seem like an appropriate reason for asking to get the money returned, it seems more like an attempt to get highly valued BTC given in lieu of removing the URL.

If there is no legitimate reason or concern to return the licence why would you want to do it or even ask if it is possible to return it?

According to bustabit.com/license.txt there a total of 32 websites that are licensed to run Bustabit's software.

The problem, is that bustabit never actually provided a license. "Umm... Text file" doesn't cut it for real world situations like a serious buyer wanting to check in to things before making a purchase (Looking at the business revenue, number of users, gambling license, SOFTWARE LICENSE).

I have thought deeply about how to remedy this situation this last week.

I hereby call out Bustabit with this question publicly - For the integrity of Bustabit's name, and quite frankly, so people don't get scammed (Because the only buyers that readily accept "Umm... Text File" for a license seem to be ones that would use the purchase to scam others...) can a bustabit licensed website be surrendered (Domain control given to Bustabit & Domain delisted from the "license text file) to Bustabit for a refund of the original license cost (2 BTC) ? And if Bustabit isn't willing to provide a full refund for a product that was sold and never provided - is Bustabit willing to provide a partial refund and finally if so, what would the amount be that they would in fact provide for this situation ?  

Right, me, nor you, nor bustabit, nor anyone else has any idea how it is supposed to work because there is no license in existence that would state what it is that I can or can not do.

Bustabit is a big name in crypto gambling, and being licensed by them is a big deal - 2.3+ million bitcoins wagered ... That's why my broker (I've sold 3 Amazon FBA businesses through him) has a buyer that is interested. I'd been going over things with my broker to put it all together in to an offering. I don't have a license to show, and that's my biggest selling point by far.

And yes, BTC is highly valued - And that's why I'm so pissed.

Said more simply if I lost anyone there... (I'm just irate about this situation).

Bustabit was paid for a license. No license was provided. When asked about how to remedy the situation - Bustabit refused to give a refund (even for less than the original purchase amount and not even if I was to surrender my domain to them).

I don't know what planet Bustabit is from saying I should have asked for a license at the time of purchase of my license.. But back here on earth (I get it everyone is trying to go to the moon), at the time of purchase means not only when you pay for something but for the time period leading up to actually taking delivery for the purchase. So, it is still very much at the time of purchase at this very moment in time.

I'm hoping that the crypto gambling foundation will be able to help, because their members are held to high ethical/moral standards as well as transactions with online casinos being provably fair - And this situation is most certainly provably unfair.

[Cantsay]

I got the email... I logged into the site and saw there was still funds and it has grown significantly in value. I then played a few rounds again and won something and was able to withdraw a nice amount to help to repair my car that was damaged in a accident. 

The fact that the money withdrawn was enough to help you fix your car made it sound like you got a really good amount from the site.

I haven't experienced this before, but, if something like this were to happen to me it would be from a site I deposited to test, there are several gambling sites where I  made deposits but never got to withdraw due to some difficulties in their system during withdrawal (although the funds ain't big that's why I could let them go easily).

[leomedina]

Right, me, nor you, nor bustabit, nor anyone else has any idea how it is supposed to work because there is no license in existence that would state what it is that I can or can not do.

Bustabit is a big name in crypto gambling, and being licensed by them is a big deal - 2.3+ million bitcoins wagered ... That's why my broker (I've sold 3 Amazon FBA businesses through him) has a buyer that is interested. I'd been going over things with my broker to put it all together in to an offering. I don't have a license to show, and that's my biggest selling point by far.

And yes, BTC is highly valued - And that's why I'm so pissed.

Said more simply if I lost anyone there... (I'm just irate about this situation).

Bustabit was paid for a license. No license was provided. When asked about how to remedy the situation - Bustabit refused to give a refund (even for less than the original purchase amount and not even if I was to surrender my domain to them).

I don't know what planet Bustabit is from saying I should have asked for a license at the time of purchase of my license.. But back here on earth (I get it everyone is trying to go to the moon), at the time of purchase means not only when you pay for something but for the time period leading up to actually taking delivery for the purchase. So, it is still very much at the time of purchase at this very moment in time.

I'm hoping that the crypto gambling foundation will be able to help, because their members are held to high ethical/moral standards as well as transactions with online casinos being provably fair - And this situation is most certainly provably unfair.

The license is directly referenced in the source code, and you can read the terms at https://www.gnu.org/licenses/agpl-3.0.html. Bustabit also provides a written acknowledgment (https://bustabit.com/license.txt) that serves as documentation of your purchase and proves that your site is exempt from AGPLv3's requirements, allowing you to take your code closed-source.

I didn't say you should have asked for a license. I said you should have asked for whatever it is you want to show them. Just to be clear, what exactly is "the product" you believe you didn't receive?

[slydexic]

Right, me, nor you, nor bustabit, nor anyone else has any idea how it is supposed to work because there is no license in existence that would state what it is that I can or can not do.

Bustabit is a big name in crypto gambling, and being licensed by them is a big deal - 2.3+ million bitcoins wagered ... That's why my broker (I've sold 3 Amazon FBA businesses through him) has a buyer that is interested. I'd been going over things with my broker to put it all together in to an offering. I don't have a license to show, and that's my biggest selling point by far.

And yes, BTC is highly valued - And that's why I'm so pissed.

Said more simply if I lost anyone there... (I'm just irate about this situation).

Bustabit was paid for a license. No license was provided. When asked about how to remedy the situation - Bustabit refused to give a refund (even for less than the original purchase amount and not even if I was to surrender my domain to them).

I don't know what planet Bustabit is from saying I should have asked for a license at the time of purchase of my license.. But back here on earth (I get it everyone is trying to go to the moon), at the time of purchase means not only when you pay for something but for the time period leading up to actually taking delivery for the purchase. So, it is still very much at the time of purchase at this very moment in time.

I'm hoping that the crypto gambling foundation will be able to help, because their members are held to high ethical/moral standards as well as transactions with online casinos being provably fair - And this situation is most certainly provably unfair.

The license is directly referenced in the source code, and you can read the terms at https://www.gnu.org/licenses/agpl-3.0.html. Bustabit also provides a written acknowledgment (https://bustabit.com/license.txt) that serves as documentation of your purchase and proves that your site is exempt from AGPLv3's requirements, allowing you to take your code closed-source.

I didn't say you should have asked for a license. I said you should have asked for whatever it is you want to show them. Just to be clear, what exactly is "the product" you believe you didn't receive?

I have spoken to a lawyer about this and familiarized myself with the issues, here is how it works in this case...

Bustabit has code, if Bustabit sells me a copy of the code, much like a book, I can read it, but I can not run it or modify it and Bustabit has every legal right to tell me I need to cease doing anything besides reading it. I'm not saying that Bustabit would do this, but when a legal team looks things over, they look for any and all issues. This is a MAJOR issue.

Code with the addition of the GPL allows use of the code, but requires that if any modifications be done that the code is made available to everyone (Share new modifications on Github, etc).

Modifying the GPL is fine, if there is a written agreement. An agreement requires both parties to agree to the modifications. This is what you are partially claiming was done. It was not ... What was done, is as the bustabit.com/license.txt says was done... which is: "The following sites have purchased a non-distributable copy of the previous version of bustabit's source code..."

Which brings us to our actual state of affairs ... Bustabit sold licensing to be a licensed by them site (That is why Bustabit is listing the domain names of the sites on their website in bustabit.com/license.txt) ... The problem, is that no license exists, all that was given was code. Which legally, can only be read, not used in absence of a software license, this is due to it being the copyrighted works of Bustabit. A text file stating that a domain purchased code and is exempt is what is legally referenced as being a "nothingburger" ... Another thing the lawyer pointed out is that a domain is not a legal entity, a person or business needs to be at the other end of an agreement, a domain is simply an online presence. From that alone there is no effectuated agreement. But further, saying "here is the software licence that you are exempt from" is like doing 0 + 1 (GPL) = 1 (software license) ... 1 (software license) - 1 (requirements to adhere to license) = 0 (software license).

So, again, I will request the same as I stated from the beginning - Would you please allow the surrender (transfer) of my domain to Bustabit, and refund the purchase to my specified BTC address when I do so ? I never received what I paid for, and I am not happy about it.

The lawyer, which I have not yet hired, states the best way to go about this is to lodge a complaint (due to the amount being over $100K USD equivalent) with the FBI Cyber Crimes division, where a case will remain in effect until there is a resolution. I'm told this can take up to three years, and daily I'm watching Bustabit rake in far more the 2 BTC this is all about. If I go the route of reporting (which I will if you will not give me a refund for my purchase that I was never provided) then this will be going in as a complaint that it not only happened to me, but to a total 32 sites (64 BTC).

Please let me know at your earliest how you would like to proceed. If you will refund for the purchase please provide email address for me to surrender the domain to you at. I really hope we can get this dealt with today, not only to expedite things, but also because I don't like involving police/cops/government in anything I do. It isn't my intention to cause a major disruption or loss to anyone, but this can easily go that way if Bustabit wants to be that greedy over 2 Bitcoin. I'm not going to be letting it go, and in the event of a shutdown/seizure there could be losses suffered by those that will need to prove identities in order to release assets back to them. I hate the position that I'm being put in to with this, but I'm not the a-hole in the equation unless you force me to be. I really thought that my first post would have been enough to get this resolved... Sincerely hoping that this one is going to be enough. The lawyer wanted to proceed with it right away with lodging a complaint, but at the very least I found it right to first let the community know of my intentions. Which are:

TLDR; NOTICE TO ALL CONCERNED PARTIES (INVESTORS, ETC) - BUSTABIT WILL BE SUBJECT TO A FORMAL COMPLAINT WITH FBI CYBER CRIMES DIVISION IF THEY DO NOT REFUND ME FOR MY PURCHASE (PURCHASED LICENSE TO OPERATE THEIR CODE - LICENSE NEVER PROVIDED). I WILL UPDATE IT HAS BEEN RESOLVED SHOULD I BE PROVIDED A REFUND, I WILL LIKELY NOT BE REPOSTING IF THEY AGAIN REFUSE.

[RHavar]

Bustabit was paid for a license.

When did this happen? Did you buy a license from me, or from Daniel?

Bustabit has code, if Bustabit sells me a copy of the code, much like a book, I can read it, but I can not run it or modify it and Bustabit has every legal right to tell me I need to cease doing anything besides reading it. I'm not saying that Bustabit would do this, but when a legal team looks things over, they look for any and all issues. This is a MAJOR issue.

When you were given the code, you should've been given something in writing saying what you are allowed to do with it. For instance, when I sold a license, I told people they can do what ever they want as long as: * They do not distribute it. * They do not sell it  * They do not claim to be, or affiliated with bustabit

Once I sold that person permission in writing (aka a license), it's not like I can retract it. If you haven't been given such permission, I suggest you contact bustabit support and get it in an email as writing as irrefutable proof of what you're allowed to do with the source code.

The lawyer, which I have not yet hired, states the best way to go about this is to lodge a complaint (due to the amount being over $100K USD equivalent) with the FBI Cyber Crimes division, where a case will remain in effect until there is a resolution.

When did you buy the license? And when did you first be unhappy about what you received?  I hope this isn't a  "I bought something in btc and now that the price of bitcoin went up through the roof .... so i'd like my bitcoin back"

[slydexic]

Bustabit was paid for a license.

When did this happen? Did you buy a license from me, or from Daniel?

Bustabit has code, if Bustabit sells me a copy of the code, much like a book, I can read it, but I can not run it or modify it and Bustabit has every legal right to tell me I need to cease doing anything besides reading it. I'm not saying that Bustabit would do this, but when a legal team looks things over, they look for any and all issues. This is a MAJOR issue.

When you were given the code, you should've been given something in writing saying what you are allowed to do with it. For instance, when I sold a license, I told people they can do what ever they want as long as: * They do not distribute it. * They do not sell it  * They do not claim to be, or affiliated with bustabit

Once I sold that person permission in writing (aka a license), it's not like I can retract it. If you haven't been given such permission, I suggest you contact bustabit support and get it in an email as writing as irrefutable proof of what you're allowed to do with the source code.

The lawyer, which I have not yet hired, states the best way to go about this is to lodge a complaint (due to the amount being over $100K USD equivalent) with the FBI Cyber Crimes division, where a case will remain in effect until there is a resolution.

When did you buy the license? And when did you first be unhappy about what you received?  I hope this isn't a  "I bought something in btc and now that the price of bitcoin went up through the roof .... so i'd like my bitcoin back"

I agree - when buying a license, one should get a license. I did contact Bustabit, openly, in public, right here, just a few messages back. To which, Bustabit replied stating I should have asked for whatever I needed a the time of purchase. It is still at the time of purchase, even now, because time of purchase is a a term meaning not only for the payment of something but continuing through the time of delivery of what was purchased. Delivery has not taken place, hence, my purchase is still ongoing.

I was under the impression that being licensed by bustabit was absolutely an affiliation to Bustabit. I am not alone, google search the term "licensed by bustabit" (with the quotes), and you will see a number of sites stating they are officially licensed by Bustabit.

As stated before, there is a flaw with the "they" you are referring to, as in when you say "they do not distribute it" and "they do not sell it" and "they do not claim to be...". They in a legal sense needs to be an individual or a business entity, but instead "they" is an online presence (speaking of a domain name). There can never be an effectuated agreement with a domain name. This is yet another reason for my solution to include surrending the domain name to Bustabit, this would in essence transfer over "they" right back to bustabit, bustabit can then do whatever they want with "they" from there.

As far as the change in price relative to some fiat currency I simply do not respect the topic even being brought up. The reason I don't, is because the price was 2 bitcoin ... Had the price for instance been $50,000 USD and payable by bitcoin, then I would agree, the USD equivalent is the price that is in question. The fact that this is being brought up just goes to show how dollar hungry those that have are in a position of power with regard to Bustabit are, I think anyway. What has the site profited the owners ? 6100 BTC ? ... And yet here we are talking about 2 bitcoin and the fact that relative to the dollar, or whatever, those 2 bitcoins go a few times further than what they used to... Furthermore, in my first message where I posed the question, I was open to the option of possibly getting less than a full refund, but the out right refusal I won't be accepting anything but.

Continuing down the list of what is wrong here... Your supposed software license is an email. An email. The license being "Whatever they want" except for just a couple rules "don't distribute it" and "dont sell it" and "dont say you are affiliated with bustabit". How can you even be serious right now ? The "dont sell it" isn't even legal, due to first sale doctrine. I'm really not trying to be a dick about the whole situation but COME ON ... I can not possibly expect a large business entity (the kind with a legal team ) to accept a license of a printed email, where I point out "yep, right here, see, "whatever-they-want"-licensed" ... But the biggest issue is now it has come to light that even if that were acceptable as a legal software license, is that it is against the terms to state any affiliation with bustabit despite being licensed by bustabit (That was the biggest selling point of the whole thing, not only when payment was originally made, but when the people on the other side of my business broker wished to purchase the business from myself - I have worked with the broker to sell 3 businesses in the past).

So, for the following reasons I wish to surrender (transfer) the domain to bustabit and be sent 2 bitcoin as compensation for doing so:

- No license provided at time of purchase of license
- Misleading terminology, not able to state affiliated in any way with bustabit (Despite being licensed by them - I'm not the only one to think this google the search term with quotations "licensed by bustabit")
- No license still provided a great deal of time after payment having been made
- License Agreement, had it existed and been given, can not be effectuated with a domain name as a buyer
- License Agreement via email, with licensing terms of "whatever-they-want" is legally not up to par.
- EU law allows for a period of time after a license is given to refuse it (So, I do not wish to at this point email in to request one, I already talked about it in this forum thread, and was declined one)
- License (email) if it did count contains non-legal caveat, for instance "dont sell it" when someone can absolutely sell a copyrighted work due to First Sale Doctrine.
- It is ridiculous to be licensed by any entity, and then be told that you are to not show your credentials proudly on a website. That is like Costa Rica giving a gambling license to Bustabit, and then sending an email saying "so, yeah, about that license, don't put that online anywhere or say anything about us being affiliated with one another, despite giving us a hefty sum of 2 bitcoins to be licensed. NOTHINGBURGER is what was sold here.

There's a lot more I could say, but its already all so ridiculous ... I could dig back and eventually find exactly when I paid for the license, but before I put in the time to do so, why do you wish to know ? Is it an effective use of my time to go looking for the exact transaction ?

I tried to cover all of the questions, if I missed anything please ask me it again, it was a lot going on there and I'm just waking up now...

[leomedina]

I never received what I paid for, and I am not happy about it.

I've just replied on the other thread that you also posted to, but can you please contact me on leo@bustabit.com from the email address you purchased a license? As I am unsure of exactly what you bought vs. what you expected to buy, it's difficult for me to try offer a resolution.

[RHavar]

I tried to cover all of the questions, if I missed anything please ask me it again, it was a lot going on there and I'm just waking up now...

I think you missed the question I asked: When did you buy the license, and when did you become unhappy with it?

[TwitchySeal]

As far as the change in price relative to some fiat currency I simply do not respect the topic even being brought up.

Ok.

The cost for the "license" was 2 bitcoins per site (Almost $140k as I am posting right now)

[slydexic]

I tried to cover all of the questions, if I missed anything please ask me it again, it was a lot going on there and I'm just waking up now...

I think you missed the question I asked: When did you buy the license, and when did you become unhappy with it?

I still don't know the exact purchase date, and I didn't miss the question, I asked if providing the exact purchase date would be good use of my time. I'm already getting made fun of for mistakes that I made in what I've posted while being angry about this whole thing, so I don't even feel like beginning to try to explain what mistakes I made in the past translate in to having difficulty with locating the exact date for you now.

I thought I was clear, I became unhappy with the purchase when I went to sell the business and the broker informed me a .txt file posted on a website stating that a copy of source code had been purchased in no way qualifies as as software license. It doesn't even say that a license was purchased... It says source code was purchased. I didn't get the license, and then become unhappy with the license like you're wording the question as. There was never a license provided.

I've tried to post back a few times in the last couple of days, but just keep ranting stupidly about it. I don't know if I'll ever log in here again... I don't know if I'll let a lawyer run with it on contingency either... My blood pressure has been entirely too high for my own good, and I need to walk away from this. There's no good reason I'm as pissed as what I am expect for probably my own personal pride having been hurt (Talking up what I had to offer, stating I was licensed by Bustabit, and feeling like an idiot when I had nothing to back up my claims and looking like a complete dumbass on a video conference relating to this)

[hopenotlate]

I need some clarification about withdrawal process: I see you apply a dynamic w/d fee linked to current network fees which is also displayed in w/d interface, that's crystal clear.
But I also see a "unpaid deposit fee " showing me zero ( maybe because I did not make a deposit in a long time now) which I don't understand what it is connected to (perhaps to the network fees at the time the deposit is made) and therefore I can't imagine what order of magnitude it is:  is it comparable to the classic w/d fee mentioned above or what?

Also, if I make different withdrawals do they come from the same address or will a brand new address be used for every transaction?

[leomedina]

I need some clarification about withdrawal process: I see you apply a dynamic w/d fee linked to current network fees which is also displayed in w/d interface, that's crystal clear.
But I also see a "unpaid deposit fee " showing me zero ( maybe because I did not make a deposit in a long time now) which I don't understand what it is connected to (perhaps to the network fees at the time the deposit is made) and therefore I can't imagine what order of magnitude it is:  is it comparable to the classic w/d fee mentioned above or what?

No, the unpaid deposit fee is generally a lot smaller and depends on 1) how expensive Bitcoin transactions are at the time you withdraw or tip another player, and 2) how many deposits you've made since you last withdrew or tipped someone. For example, say you made 20 deposits and now want to withdraw your profits. You'd have to pay the normal withdrawal fee, and what it costs to consolidate all the deposits you made:

Code:

total fee = withdrawal fee + (20 * consolidation fee)

So, making a lot of deposits will only incur additional costs for you, not for other players (and that's one of the reasons we can offer really cheap withdrawals).

Also, if I make different withdrawals do they come from the same address or will a brand new address be used for every transaction?

We wouldn't be able to send from an address that hasn't received funds (i.e. doesn't have any outputs associated with it), but we don't consolidate deposits into a single address, if that's what you mean.

[hopenotlate]

-snip-

Also, if I make different withdrawals do they come from the same address or will a brand new address be used for every transaction?

We wouldn't be able to send from an address that hasn't received funds (i.e. doesn't have any outputs associated with it), but we don't consolidate deposits into a single address, if that's what you mean.

Thanks for your prompt answer.

Actually what I wanted to know is : if I will make several withdrawals from my account will they all be sent from the same address or will the sending address be different each time? And if it's the second case could these addresses be linked each other in some way with chain analysis tools?

Maybe your sentence I quoted already answers my questions but  my limited technical knowledge prevents me from understanding it properly.

[leomedina]

Actually what I wanted to know is : if I will make several withdrawals from my account will they all be sent from the same address or will the sending address be different each time? And if it's the second case could these addresses be linked each other in some way with chain analysis tools?

When you make multiple withdrawals from your account, the sending addresses will typically be different each time. This is because each withdrawal transaction consumes different unspent outputs (UTXOs) as inputs, and each UTXO is usually associated with a different address. Bustabit generates a new deposit address for each deposit, but if you reuse the old ones you will be more likely to receive transactions associated with those same addresses (which can potentially make it easier for someone to analyze your transaction history). As long as you don't reuse addresses, you should be able to benefit from all of our hot wallet privacy features.