closed.

[Walsoraj]

i changed my mind. In fact, lets petition paypal to add hundreds of altcoins as well.

Makes perfect sense.

 

[sublime5447]

Paypal would have a btc address assigned to your paypal account. If you wanted to trade them out for currency or sell them for paypal you would simply send coins to your paypal bitcoin wallet.  It would easy for paypal to do it.  

Then explain how they would do it. Here's the scenario again:

1) I pay dollars for something.

2) The seller takes his money in Bitcoins.

3) I dispute the transaction.

What happens? Does PayPal cover my dollars? Where does PayPal get the Bitcoins to pay the seller?

For this to work, someone would have to provide PayPal a service to and from Bitcoins that provided substantially the same semantics as their current USD and EUR services. For very good reasons, that doesn't exist. PayPal is a soft monetary exchange, Bitcoins do not have any soft exchange. Matching soft to hard systems is very difficult if neither endpoint can be trusted by the middleman, which is PayPal's model.

And if you're going to tell PayPal to support Bitcoins but not provide any buyer or seller protection, they'll wind up providing a Bitcoin service that even Bitcoin enthusiasts will recommend against using. (This is why common advice is to use PayPal, not Bitcoins, when the buyer and seller cannot trust each other!)

I guess what I am saying is paypal has you by the short hairs. They take no risk. In the event of a charge back they seize your bank account. The only thing paypal has to worry about is end game strategy.. for example someone is leaving the country and wont need their old bank account.  

[JoelKatz]

The reasons for charge back would be non delivery or unauthorized use. In these cases say you paid in btc and then item didnt show. They would do what they do in every case seize the funds... If the btc has been spent they would simply seize the usd funds in the account or their bank account. Same thing for unauthorized use. Paypal is very good when it comes to investigating these cases... they can tell if you where hacked or not.

Bitcoin transactions, unlike USD transactions, are irreversible. They can't seize the USD funds because they owner of those funds claims the payment was unauthorized. PayPal is good with those cases because they aren't dealing with hard, irreversible payments.

The main use of pp for bitcoin would be conversion. Under that scenario it would be very easy for them to settle disputes as the block chain transaction details are not able to be manipulated.

You're just waving your hands and ignoring the issues as if that would make them go away. Let's try another one:

1) I'm a Bitcoin seller.

2) Someone agrees to buy Bitcoins from me.

3) A USD PayPal payment is made to me.

4) I send the Bitcoins.

5) The sender claims they didn't authorize the USD payment and their account was hacked. There is no way to tell who actually received the Bitcoins or where they went, even seconds after they've been sent.

What does PayPal do?

The fundamental problem is that Bitcoin payments are hard and irreversible while USD payments are soft and reversible. It is a very thorny problem to be a middleman in mixed hard/soft transactions where the middleman cannot trust either endpoint.

If you think you can make this work, forget about PayPal. Sell Bitcoins and let people pay with a credit card. You'll make a ton of money -- except you won't because it doesn't work.

[sublime5447]

"The problem is if USD founds are not involved. Bitcoins transactions, unlike USD transactions, are irreversible"

of course the transaction would be reversible Dont you get it ? If you have a paypal account they just go in and seize your funds. What is the worst case scenario? they have to pay you back in usd and not bitcoin! I mean I can run a scam with usd and then take all the funds and let them freeze a bank account with nothing in it. When someone charges back they dont take the exact funds that is paid in it wouldnt matter if the btc was there or not, who cares? they just take what ever you got and put your bank account negative. 


"The sender claims they didn't authorize the USD payment and their account was hacked. There is no way to tell who actually received the Bitcoins or where they went, even seconds after they've been sent."

It is easy for paypal to tell if you were hacked or not. They do it all the time.

"There is no way to tell who actually received the Bitcoins"

Yes there would..  if you have a pp bitcoin account they would know every transaction that happened with it. They would assign you a PP bitcoin address and would know if you sent or received to that address or any customers address... it is all public record! 

[sublime5447]

Bitcoin transactions, unlike USD transactions, are irreversible. They can't seize the USD funds because they owner of those funds claims the payment was unauthorized. PayPal is good with those cases because they aren't dealing with hard, irreversible payments.


I have a paypal debit... someone pays me and then I got to the atm and withdraw the funds... nothing left in the bank nothing left on paypal.. how is that any different than.. I have a btc address someone pays me in btc I transfer out of paypal.. they charge back an there are no funds left.. it is not different.

[sublime5447]

What do you think? that if someone sends me a usd payment then i send that payment to someone else then the original sender charges back that they go to the account of who ever received the funds and confiscate them? that is not the way it works.

[sublime5447]

"PayPal is good with those cases because they aren't dealing with hard, irreversible payments."


This is dribble.. any payment is reversible if they have complete access to my accounts.. either that or they close my account and make an insurance claim.

[JoelKatz]

"PayPal is good with those cases because they aren't dealing with hard, irreversible payments."

This is dribble.. any payment is reversible if they have complete access to my accounts.. either that or they close my account and make an insurance claim.

I don't really have the patience to try to explain something to someone who isn't listening. If you really think you're right, start a company that lets people buy Bitcoins easily with a credit card and you should make lots of money.

"The sender claims they didn't authorize the USD payment and their account was hacked. There is no way to tell who actually received the Bitcoins or where they went, even seconds after they've been sent."

It is easy for paypal to tell if you were hacked or not. They do it all the time.

Okay, so what does PayPal do? You still haven't answered the question. I've asked a very specific question with a very specific scenario and asked you what PayPal does. I'll try it again:

1) Jack sells Bitcoins for USD using PayPal.

2) Jack receives USD over PayPal from Jill's account.

3) Jack sends Bitcoins.

4) Jill complains to PayPal that her account shows a payment she didn't authorize.

Specifically, what does PayPal do?

(If your thinking "Whatever they do when this happens now", the answer is that this *never* happens now because they don't allow you to use PayPal to buy Bitcoins. The difference matters.)

[favdesu]

I like the idea of spreading the word... but PayPal? Really?

[CoinsForTech]

I like the idea of spreading the word... but PayPal? Really?

+ 1

I sincerely hope the rise of bitcoin equals the fall of PayPal

[sublime5447]

"I don't really have the patience to try to explain something to someone who isn't listening. If you really think you're right, start a company that lets people buy Bitcoins easily with a credit card and you should make lots of money."

I do have a business that allows people to buy bitcoins with credit card... and have been running it profitably for almost a year now.. look at my trust rating everyone of those transactions was done with you guessed it... Paypal... I have never used anything but paypal to buy or sell coins.

"Okay, so what does PayPal do? You still haven't answered the question. I've asked a very specific question with a very specific scenario and asked you what PayPal does. I'll try it again:

1) Jack sells Bitcoins for USD using PayPal.

2) Jack receives USD over PayPal from Jill's account.

3) Jack sends Bitcoins.

4) Jill complains to PayPal that her account shows a payment she didn't authorize.

Specifically, what does PayPal do?

(If your thinking "Whatever they do when this happens now", the answer is that this *never* happens now because they don't allow you to use PayPal to buy Bitcoins. The difference matters.)"


This is not a problem bro how fucking easy would it be to tell if she authorized the payment or not? This shit happens every day with usd!

Specifically what paypal does in cased of unauthorized use is to freeze the funds... it would be no different with bitcoins!!!


So jack has usd in his account from selling the btc...and jill has btc in here PP bitcoin wallet... jill is a lying bitch and says she didnt buy that..

This is what happens the usd in jacks account is frozen while they review... they see that oh look jack did send the bitcoin it is in jills PP wallet.. case close give jack his money back..

ya got any more brain busters?

[JoelKatz]

So jack has usd in his account from selling the btc...and jill has btc in here PP bitcoin wallet... jill is a lying bitch and says she didnt buy that..

This is what happens the usd in jacks account is frozen while they review... they see that oh look jack did send the bitcoin it is in jills PP wallet.. case close give jack his money back..

ya got any more brain busters?

This would be an absolute disaster. If PayPal adopted this policy, the rate at which PayPal accounts are stolen would go through the roof as thieves used malware to get people's PayPal login information and easily converted that to Bitcoins. Victims would complain to their banks when PayPal doesn't help them, they would reverse ACH transactions, dispute credit card charges, and PayPal would severely damage their banking relationships.

[Ipsum]

http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/09/ebay_bitcoins/

[marcovaldo]

How much are you selling emails to private companies?

[sublime5447]

So jack has usd in his account from selling the btc...and jill has btc in here PP bitcoin wallet... jill is a lying bitch and says she didnt buy that..

This is what happens the usd in jacks account is frozen while they review... they see that oh look jack did send the bitcoin it is in jills PP wallet.. case close give jack his money back..

ya got any more brain busters?

This would be an absolute disaster. If PayPal adopted this policy, the rate at which PayPal accounts are stolen would go through the roof as thieves used malware to get people's PayPal login information and easily converted that to Bitcoins. Victims would complain to their banks when PayPal doesn't help them, they would reverse ACH transactions, dispute credit card charges, and PayPal would severely damage their banking relationships.

There is less incentive to steal bitcoins then dollars.. there would not be a flood of hacked accounts and there are plenty of safe guards in place to stop fraud. They are in the business of fraud prevention that is the number one service they provide. It is the only service they charge for other than currency conversion.

Paypal only charges me when they insure my transaction.  A gift paymet funded from your balance and sent from your home is the exact same thing as a bitcoin transaction.  It is non reversible and uninsured they could offer bitcoin transactions with the same business model. If you are sending to a trusted friend it would be free if you wanted it to be insured you would have to provide additional information and pay a fee.

It annoys me when people say shit cant be done... or never. That is the same load of shit people told me when I started my coin sales business. Stop saying things cant be done and start asking how can it be done. When you say cant you are refusing to think.    

[JoelKatz]

There is less incentive to steal bitcoins then dollars..

Only because there aren't good, easy way to steal Bitcoins. If there were, Bitcoins would be much more desirable because the payments are irreversible and harder to trace.

there would not be a flood of hacked accounts

I don't agree. There would be a flood of hacked accounts.

and there are plenty of safe guards in place to stop fraud.

Right, such as not allowing people to use PayPal to buy Bitcoins.

They are in the business of fraud prevention that is the number one service they provide. It is the only service they charge for other than currency conversion.

Exactly, and that's why they currently don't permit PayPal to be used to buy Bitcoins.

Paypal only charges me when they insure my transaction.  A gift paymet funded from your balance and sent from your home is the exact same thing as a bitcoin transaction.  It is non reversible and uninsured they could offer bitcoin transactions with the same business model. If you are sending to a trusted friend it would be free if you wanted it to be insured you would have to provide additional information and pay a fee.

That is not true. Simply saying the transaction was unauthorized is sufficient to get PayPal to reverse a gift. There is nothing the recipient can say in response. They can't say they earned it.

It annoys me when people say shit cant be done... or never. That is the same load of shit people told me when I started my coin sales business. Stop saying things cant be done and start asking how can it be done. When you say cant you are refusing to think.

You have it completely backwards. You are the one saying there is no problem to solve and thus that no problem solving is necessary. It is *that* attitude that prevents things from changing. I'm trying to get you to see that there are big problems that would need to be solved and you are refusing to think and instead just dismissing the problem.

[sublime5447]

There is less incentive to steal bitcoins then dollars..

Only because there aren't good, easy way to steal Bitcoins. If there were, Bitcoins would be much more desirable because the payments are irreversible and harder to trace.

Man I think the shine of bitcoins as warped your brain. There is less incentive to steal bitcoins than usd because there is less demand for bitcoin and you can't do shit but buy drugs off the silkroad. There is more demand for bitcoin? most people would look at you stupid if you told them they could have bitcoin instead of dollars.

there would not be a flood of hacked accounts

I don't agree. There would be a flood of hacked accounts.

Because there would be a big incentive to get ones paypal information were it didnt exist before?

and there are plenty of safe guards in place to stop fraud.

Right, such as not allowing people to use PayPal to buy Bitcoins.

Like not allowing you to log in from a new Ip address, or us a proxy, or making you phone verify among many other checks for fraud. They are the biggest online payment processor in the world for a reason

They are in the business of fraud prevention that is the number one service they provide. It is the only service they charge for other than currency conversion.

Exactly, and that's why they currently don't permit PayPal to be used to buy Bitcoins.

I have been doing it for a year and have talked to their reps. about 20 times. They have never indicated a problem. They know I sell bitcoin and let me do it on ebay for months.

Paypal only charges me when they insure my transaction.  A gift paymet funded from your balance and sent from your home is the exact same thing as a bitcoin transaction.  It is non reversible and uninsured they could offer bitcoin transactions with the same business model. If you are sending to a trusted friend it would be free if you wanted it to be insured you would have to provide additional information and pay a fee.

That is not true. Simply saying the transaction was unauthorized is sufficient to get PayPal to reverse a gift. There is nothing the recipient can say in response. They can't say they earned it.

I am glad you have spent the last 12 months trading for paypal and have dealt with tons of charge backs.. oh wait you haven't, but I have and you dont know what you are talking about. If it was funded from your balance and was sent from your ip address it can not be reversed.

I know if for a fing fact!

It annoys me when people say shit cant be done... or never. That is the same load of shit people told me when I started my coin sales business. Stop saying things cant be done and start asking how can it be done. When you say cant you are refusing to think.

You have it completely backwards. You are the one saying there is no problem to solve and thus that no problem solving is necessary. It is *that* attitude that prevents things from changing. I'm trying to get you to see that there are big problems that would need to be solved and you are refusing to think and instead just dismissing the problem.

you are letting you bias against paypal influence your thinking. It might be hard for you to figure out a system to trade bitcoin it wouldnt be a problem for paypal, but would make ripple totally irrelevant.

[JoelKatz]

you are letting you bias against paypal influence your thinking. It might be hard for you to figure out a system to trade bitcoin is wouldnt be a problem for paypal, but would make ripple totally irrelevant.

Quite the contrary, that would be great for Ripple. Ripple currently has the same problem Bitcoin does -- it's hard to get fiat money into and out of the system because of exactly the problems I'm trying to draw attention to here -- it's hard to mix soft money and hard money systems. If people could easily buy and sell Bitcoins, that would make it much easier for them to get money into and out of Ripple because Bitcoins are hard money.

[MoneyGod]

I am not going with this idea   

[sublime5447]

you are letting you bias against paypal influence your thinking. It might be hard for you to figure out a system to trade bitcoin is wouldnt be a problem for paypal, but would make ripple totally irrelevant.

Quite the contrary, that would be great for Ripple. Ripple currently has the same problem Bitcoin does -- it's hard to get fiat money into and out of the system because of exactly the problems I'm trying to draw attention to here -- it's hard to mix soft money and hard money systems. If people could easily buy and sell Bitcoins, that would make it much easier for them to get money into and out of Ripple because Bitcoins are hard money.

Does anyone else find this laughable? ripple was sold as an easier way to get bitcoin!

If people can just buy bitcoin they wouldn't have any need for ripple!

Any fool can see that.