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Author Topic: Litecoin Bitcoin tokens project  (Read 1063 times)
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September 09, 2013, 07:13:22 PM
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I am currently manufacturing physical litecoins and bitcoins for the masses. These will come in denominations of 1 Litecoin and 0.01 bitcoins. They will be made of cheap material like aluminium and have a holographic sticker on the back. These will be made either for long term investement or to give as gifts to people who dont know about crypto. There will not be a great deal of difference between casascius coins or Lealana litecoins apart from the very low denominations opening the scope for normal everyday people to potentially buy them

My theory is no one will spend 100 pounds plus on a bitcoin or 10 litecoins when they dont know anything about them but they will spend 4 pounds. Therefore more people will buy them and get more interest. I will not be making hardly any profit probably 1 pound per coin unlike the casascius coins that make 10-15 pounds per coin for the basic brass versions.

This is just a hobby really and a plan to get litecoins to the masses as well as bitcoins. I would like to donate the first coin made to an organisation that helps litecoin and donate one for every 20 sold. Similarly the same with bitcoin. Who would be the organisation that I can get in touch to do this?
Thank you!

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September 09, 2013, 10:44:23 PM
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Trust is the most important issue with these coins since the producer could in theory grab the coins back at any later date. I believe Casascius was working on a way to generate coins where the buyer would have some additional secret that was required to spend funds.

The other issue is from the talk (Defcon?) where someone removed the sticker without ruining the tamper-evident pattern, the market is probably there for stickers that cannot be defeated in the same way.

Some people may want simple coins with no cryptocurrency attached as well so that might be a good way to get started with some kind of coin.
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September 10, 2013, 10:02:42 AM
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Thanks. I got around the defcon trick quite simply really. It would be good if these coins were accepted in shops at some stage however.

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September 11, 2013, 12:34:04 AM
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I got around the defcon trick quite simply really.

How?
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September 11, 2013, 11:55:45 AM
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Also what company do you use to get the custom stickers? I'm looking to develop physical coins for FRK.

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September 11, 2013, 12:41:48 PM
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Basically you need art work first. On me

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September 11, 2013, 01:18:12 PM
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I got around the defcon trick quite simply really.

How?

article quotes it being an easy to obtain substance such as an acetone based nailpolish remover or possibly a rubbing alcohol of some sort.  Claims they used a small needle to inject a tiny amount into a tiny puncture hole...it allows the removal of the tamper sticker but also destroys the adhesive in the process...the person would also need to procure more adhesive and CAREFULLY repapply the tamper seal to the coin (possible...yes.  A total bitch to do....yes)  I would rather steal the coin forever and call it a day....you know.....If I were a lazy non working person into that sort of thing.

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September 11, 2013, 01:49:18 PM
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I agree and also when bitcoin reaches the value if 1000's then the inspection before purchase would be able to identify any tampering

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September 11, 2013, 04:32:43 PM
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I got around the defcon trick quite simply really.

How?

article quotes it being an easy to obtain substance such as an acetone based nailpolish remover or possibly a rubbing alcohol of some sort.  Claims they used a small needle to inject a tiny amount into a tiny puncture hole...it allows the removal of the tamper sticker but also destroys the adhesive in the process...the person would also need to procure more adhesive and CAREFULLY repapply the tamper seal to the coin (possible...yes.  A total bitch to do....yes)  I would rather steal the coin forever and call it a day....you know.....If I were a lazy non working person into that sort of thing.

It's not about stealing the coin outright, it's about resale value.  Suppose you buy 100 Casascius coins and then steal the private keys, then sell the physical coins.  For each coin, you get to collect the 1BTC from the private key and the 1.1BTC from the buyer, making 2.1 BTC total.

For this reason, it's difficult for anyone to trust a Casascius coin anymore.  You have no way of knowing if it's been tampered with and the private key exposed.  You can't trust that a given coin will actually have any value when you go to redeem the private key.
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September 11, 2013, 04:39:20 PM
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For this reason, it's difficult for anyone to trust a Casascius coin anymore.  You have no way of knowing if it's been tampered with and the private key exposed.  You can't trust that a given coin will actually have any value when you go to redeem the private key.

With a photograph of the coin, this can probably be worked around:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=221343.0


Also, as far as I understand the procedure in the casascius coin hack, it should be possible to counter it by adding a thin layer of paper or similar substance somewhere below the hologram. If that reacted to the solvent, you'd know that it's been tampered with. Make that piece of paper shine through the hologram somewhere and you'd be easily able to tell whether or not it's still "valid". But that's just theory so far.

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September 11, 2013, 11:24:03 PM
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For this reason, it's difficult for anyone to trust a Casascius coin anymore.  You have no way of knowing if it's been tampered with and the private key exposed.  You can't trust that a given coin will actually have any value when you go to redeem the private key.

With a photograph of the coin, this can probably be worked around:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=221343.0


Also, as far as I understand the procedure in the casascius coin hack, it should be possible to counter it by adding a thin layer of paper or similar substance somewhere below the hologram. If that reacted to the solvent, you'd know that it's been tampered with. Make that piece of paper shine through the hologram somewhere and you'd be easily able to tell whether or not it's still "valid". But that's just theory so far.

The thread you linked does not provide a way to prove that the private key has not been revealed from a Casascius coin.  It only allows you to prove that the coin existed at a certain date, which is to stop counterfeits in the future.  The relevant quote:
Quote
Here's why such a proof can be useful in the future:

Currently it's highly likely there are no counterfeits of casascius coins around. It's just not worth the effort yet.

However assume it's the year 2023 and you decide to sell your precious 0.5 BTC coins back from 2013 when the first batch of these was made and the potential buyer is sceptical because there are now counterfeits around. Wouldn't it be great if you could proove that this coin has actually existed back in May 2013? It probably would increase the buyers confidence quite a bit. Well: you can.

And your "piece of paper" that shines through the hologram can also easily be bypassed.  These hologram stickers are not unique, and you can easily order identical ones from any number of custom-security-sticker companies on the internet.  What's to stop someone from just putting a brand new hologram sticker with a brand new piece of solvent-reactive paper?  Or some regular paper that just looks like the untampered solvent-reactive paper?

As soon as a large scale attack like this actually takes place, Casascius coins will be no more than collectors items.  They'll still have their BTC value, but nobody will accept the coin itself as a means of payment without immediately sweeping the funds.  And it's really only a matter of time until someone performs this attack, and a bunch of people get totally screwed.
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September 12, 2013, 12:25:43 PM
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The thread you linked does not provide a way to prove that the private key has not been revealed from a Casascius coin.  It only allows you to prove that the coin existed at a certain date, which is to stop counterfeits in the future.  The relevant quote:
Quote
However assume it's the year 2023 and you decide to sell your precious 0.5 BTC coins back from 2013 when the first batch of these was made and the potential buyer is sceptical because there are now counterfeits around. Wouldn't it be great if you could proove that this coin has actually existed back in May 2013? It probably would increase the buyers confidence quite a bit. Well: you can.

It obviously does not offer security from fraud before the photo. You will have to trust the seller of the coin who took the photo. In the case of casascius coins, you would have to trust the chain of both casascius and the coin photographer.
If casascius adopted that practice of taking pictures, you would be left with only a one-man-chain of trust.


And your "piece of paper" that shines through the hologram can also easily be bypassed.  These hologram stickers are not unique, and you can easily order identical ones from any number of custom-security-sticker companies on the internet.  What's to stop someone from just putting a brand new hologram sticker with a brand new piece of solvent-reactive paper?  Or some regular paper that just looks like the untampered solvent-reactive paper?

Well, holograms are more or less hard to copy, depending very much on the quality of the hologram and the quality of the copy you want.
The same goes for paper, as long as you just use the right one (think of fluorescent paint, watermarks, etc.)
For any given "attack", one has to weigh the cost of counterfeiting against the potential benefit of the counterfeiter.


As soon as a large scale attack like this actually takes place, Casascius coins will be no more than collectors items.  They'll still have their BTC value, but nobody will accept the coin itself as a means of payment without immediately sweeping the funds.  And it's really only a matter of time until someone performs this attack, and a bunch of people get totally screwed.

Casascius coins, as you already pointed out, are collectors' items. It is highly unlikely that they may ever become a common method of payment. With collectors' items, the number of potential attacks a single counterfeiter may launch is severely limited. Therefore, it is also highly unlikely that it may be worth the effort. Collectors' items are usually not passed through so many hands, so, for any given coin, there will likely be a traceable chain of former owners. It is even likely that coins with such a chain will have a much higher value than those without.
In conclusion, I don't really consider this kind of attack profitable. Security as a trade-off between cost and effort for an attacker is doable for physical bitcoins.

I'd rather counterfeit rare stamps, they are cheaper to produce and probably easier to sell  Wink


And just to counter an argument you might bring up: no, I don't think any physical bitcoin will ever be used as a regular method of payment. In the end, it just doesn't make sense. Bitcoin is digital, the world is moving away from cash and towards digital payments. Why would you carry around a bunch of coins when you have a mobile phone? Also, the cost of any bitcoin-"loaded" coin will always be higher than the value it carries. That's a very bad premise for cash.

Having said that, I do like physical bitcoins and I think they may be a good storage of value for some. In the case of all the implementations so far, I don't consider them "safe", since you always have to trust the producer. I can think of ways to work around that, but they are extremely costly and may just not be worth the effort.

All free men, wherever they may live, can use Bitcoin, and, therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words "Ich bin ein Bitcoiner!"
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