Just going to vent to you about how we the people(miners) are getting ripped

[tarmi]

So you think Avalon knew in advance that the price would sky-rocket after they sold batch#1-2?

well, its a win-win for them.

they sell miners to secure the network for a lot of coins. their value can only go up.

[01BTC10]

Definitely. They didn't know for sure but that was definitely a thought. Thats why they only accepted bitcoins. I'm talking about for batch 2 and three though. If you go back and look, they always opened preorders for miners when the btc value was low.

I don't agree but you can think what you want!

ps: batch 1-2 was priced in $, $1500. Only batch 3 was priced at 75BTC

[andrewboy44]

Definitely. They didn't know for sure but that was definitely a thought. Thats why they only accepted bitcoins. I'm talking about for batch 2 and three though. If you go back and look, they always opened preorders for miners when the btc value was low.

I don't agree but you can think what you want!

ps: batch 1-2 was priced in $, $1500. Only batch 3 was priced at 75BTC

Im not talking about the price. I'm talking about the overall value of btc. For example silkroad sellers love love love to sell their product when the btc value is low because they get more btc and they know the value will eventually go back up. In my opinion avalon waited for the btc price to go down then released the preorders. People had no choice to wait until the value of btc went up to purchase the miners bc their was only a limited amount of preorders allowed. But thats jut my little conspiracy theory lol

[hacknoid]

Thanks for this thread.  As miner myself (and BFL customer), its been incredibly frustrating to watch the difficulty skyrocket while listening to excuses from BFL.  At the end of the day, it is money out of my pocket directly.  I may be lucky and earn back what I paid (actually converted cash to BTC to make the purchase) so as long as I recoup the dollar amount I am happy.  At this point I am quitting the mining race, but will continue to mine with the hardware now that I have it.

The real unfortunate thing is the people jumping into the fray now, with the whole "next generation" of ASICs coming up.  The likely proliferation of >500GH  miners within the year will mean that the difficulty will be so high that I will bet anyone receiving ANY hardware past December of this year simply won't recoup their investment (unless they paid cash or cash equivalent and the price increases significantly).

The early gold rush certainly is over.  And your analogy is spot on.   I would expect the hardware prices would have to drop significantly if people actually did the calculation for ROI, but sadly most miners-to-be simply won't.

BTW, the mining calculator at TGB should give a pretty good idea of whether you can expect a ROI or not:
http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/


Cheers

[andrewboy44]

Thanks for this thread.  As miner myself (and BFL customer), its been incredibly frustrating to watch the difficulty skyrocket while listening to excuses from BFL.  At the end of the day, it is money out of my pocket directly.  I may be lucky and earn back what I paid (actually converted cash to BTC to make the purchase) so as long as I recoup the dollar amount I am happy.  At this point I am quitting the mining race, but will continue to mine with the hardware now that I have it.

The real unfortunate thing is the people jumping into the fray now, with the whole "next generation" of ASICs coming up.  The likely proliferation of >500GH  miners within the year will mean that the difficulty will be so high that I will bet anyone receiving ANY hardware past December of this year simply won't recoup their investment (unless they paid cash or cash equivalent and the price increases significantly).

The early gold rush certainly is over.  And your analogy is spot on.   I would expect the hardware prices would have to drop significantly if people actually did the calculation for ROI, but sadly most miners-to-be simply won't.

BTW, the mining calculator at TGB should give a pretty good idea of whether you can expect a ROI or not:
http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/


Cheers

Thank you.

[frankenmint]

No one saw the network effect from the European Debt crisis and Cypress.  Not even Avalon...if you ask me...it should always be the standard that any bitcoin mining hardware companies should also be willing to accept bitcoin as a form of payment - Avalon saw this no differently.  If BTC had followed a more linear steady growth trend, it would probably have stayed at a lower rate for longer periods of time and there would be less demand for hardware.  I, like a great majority of other users here, got into bitcoin AFTER learning that the price of it could potentially Skyrocket in value,  not before.  


Why is it that every time I keep seeing people complain about not being able to perpetually make heaps and heaps of money simply for processing power - dude its Jurassic Park/Concrete Jungle status.  "Life Finds A Way"  which is why mining kept being pushed off to technology that could increase efficiency to stay above diminishing returns.  


Guys....MINE ALT COINS....seriously....MINE ALT COINS  when diff is too high for you to sit with.  Obviously there is a bit of a gamble here that depends on your belief as to whether or not the price will go up.  If you think it goes up a whole bunch then you should consider holding onto your mined coins a bit longer.


To me, it seems as though the only ones who actually feel the urge to complain, those who are quick to curse this gift of "free money essentially" seem to desire selling btc immediately for local fiat...this was always meant to be an activity that marginally rewards you for protecting the network.  The block reward halving is a way to wean out the reward structure for early adopters.  The thing is that alt-coins can and are sold on exchanges for BTC and can be mined at a much higher rate.  

Do not trick yourself into thinking that a sustainable career path could be made by mining btc and playing the hardware arms race upgrade game.  Hold your mined coins and only sell a small portion at any given time so that you don't lose from any other potential price climbs....conversely, if you really want your investment to pan out better (talking about if you dropped Grands upon grands on ASICS HW or GPU for scryptcoin), then start TELLING YOUR LOCAL MERCHANTS TO ACCEPT CRYPTO!  Keep a few bitcents on a mobile wallet, show them the mobile wallet and explain that is money in your pocket that could be in theirs if they are willing to accept BTC in addition to Cash and Cards.  

SATOSHI FOREST FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


FWIW I'll leave you with this bit on mining.genesisblock calculator = their calculation doesn't do network retarget adjustment - it does Exponential Curve Rates for Difficulty.  As we all know, asics HW MFG doesnt double month after month, sales do not double month after month, and if more people follow my advice with mining alts- that is hashpower that gradually transitions onto alt-chains as well.  Put it this way, do you buy 1 miner the first month, 2 miners the 2nd, 4 the 3rd month, 8 the 4th month, 16 the 5th month, 32 by six months in???  Can you really see 1 person even being able to manage that level of miners?  I don't...its not realistic.  Well the genesis block calculator seems to think that is absolutely realistic.  Yes its my opinion....no one really knows what to expect within the coming months.

[gmaxwell]

got over 100-200 btc a day for a few months

As others have pointed out, this is nonsense.

At January first 2013— long before any avalon miners existed regardless of what Chinese conspiracy theories you have— difficulty was 2979636.

At 60GH/s this would have resulted in 10.13 BTC/day, an order of magnitude higher than you claim. By the time any were reported in anyone's hands anywhere the difficulty was 2968775 ... very slightly _lower_, which is again evidence that no one was turning on some big mystery asic farms at the time.

This bit of complete nonsense degrades what is otherwise an OK post, you ought to fix it.

[hacknoid]

FWIW I'll leave you with this bit on mining.genesisblock calculator = their calculation doesn't do network retarget adjustment - it does Exponential Curve Rates for Difficulty.  As we all know, asics HW MFG doesnt double month after month, sales do not double month after month, and if more people follow my advice with mining alts- that is hashpower that gradually transitions onto alt-chains as well.  Put it this way, do you buy 1 miner the first month, 2 miners the 2nd, 4 the 3rd month, 8 the 4th month, 16 the 5th month, 32 by six months in???  Can you really see 1 person even being able to manage that level of miners?  I don't...its not realistic.  Well the genesis block calculator seems to think that is absolutely realistic.  Yes its my opinion....no one really knows what to expect within the coming months.

It may not be perfect, but the growth since January has been remarkably steady on an exponential rate: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed.png.  This won't keep up forever, but it will help using that as a guideline to see if it's worth it.  Nobody can predict where difficulty will go, but there is a lot more mining hardware going to come online in the next year.

The funny thing is if the calculator is even close to correct on its estimates then in most cases you can see spending the money now to buy the Bitcoins and holding them is - at the very least - the same as spending the money to buy the hardware to mine.  That is, you will get the same number of coins as you would have mined.  And there is no electricity cost.  And no risking shipping/production delays.

It's up to the individual, of course - but hopefully anyone entering the mining fray will have a good understanding of what they are getting into and not expecting that its just "free money".

[eiliant]

and then is the retail era....

Can you elaborate on retail era?

[Soros Shorts]

got over 100-200 btc a day for a few months

As others have pointed out, this is nonsense.

At January first 2013— long before any avalon miners existed regardless of what Chinese conspiracy theories you have— difficulty was 2979636.

At 60GH/s this would have resulted in 10.13 BTC/day, an order of magnitude higher than you claim. By the time any were reported in anyone's hands anywhere the difficulty was 2968775 ... very slightly _lower_, which is again evidence that no one was turning on some big mystery asic farms at the time.

This bit of complete nonsense degrades what is otherwise an OK post, you ought to fix it.

Indeed, the only time an Avalon could have made 100-200 BTC a day was back in June 2011 or earlier.

[SeansOutpost]

SATOSHI FOREST FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SATOSHI FOREST!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for the shout out.

Jason King
Sean's Outpost
Keeper of the Forest

[smoothie]

got over 100-200 btc a day for a few months

As others have pointed out, this is nonsense.

At January first 2013— long before any avalon miners existed regardless of what Chinese conspiracy theories you have— difficulty was 2979636.

At 60GH/s this would have resulted in 10.13 BTC/day, an order of magnitude higher than you claim. By the time any were reported in anyone's hands anywhere the difficulty was 2968775 ... very slightly _lower_, which is again evidence that no one was turning on some big mystery asic farms at the time.

This bit of complete nonsense degrades what is otherwise an OK post, you ought to fix it.

Surprised? If they can't even get their math right when trying to lie (or sound smart) they obviously got taken for a ride on the Bitcoin ASIC death hole.

[shields]

Speak for yourself. I (the people) was capable of working out that pre-ordering an ASiC with a non-certain delivery date and unknown future difficulty  is an unnecessary risk. I buy coins instead, it's enough of a risk and I'll win big if BTC succeeds. No need to mine, the easy magic money making machine doesn't exist.

[OleOle]

snip/ the greed that is taking place now is crazy and I hate it. /snip

+1

[AussieHash]

I applaud them for dropping their first miner at 1300 dollars. Those people that were lucky enough to get them got over 100-200 btc a day for a few months.

Not true. Early batch#1 will get maybe 400-500BTC max in their lifetime most of the others orders including batch#2 way less than that.

However, I congratulate you for understanding that bitcoin mining is not for everyone and not an easy and safe way to make money.

Batch 1 Avalon miners didn't earn that much
http://cointext.com/bitcoin-mining-profitability-an-example/

[AussieHash]

http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/


Historical Difficulty Increase
30 Day   122 %
60 Day   331 %
90 Day   600 %

[Inaba]

No one saw the network effect from the European Debt crisis and Cypress.  Not even Avalon...if you ask me...it should always be the standard that any bitcoin mining hardware companies should also be willing to accept bitcoin as a form of payment - Avalon saw this no differently.  If BTC had followed a more linear steady growth trend, it would probably have stayed at a lower rate for longer periods of time and there would be less demand for hardware.  I, like a great majority of other users here, got into bitcoin AFTER learning that the price of it could potentially Skyrocket in value,  not before. 


Why is it that every time I keep seeing people complain about not being able to perpetually make heaps and heaps of money simply for processing power - dude its Jurassic Park/Concrete Jungle status.  "Life Finds A Way"  which is why mining kept being pushed off to technology that could increase efficiency to stay above diminishing returns. 


Guys....MINE ALT COINS....seriously....MINE ALT COINS  when diff is too high for you to sit with.  Obviously there is a bit of a gamble here that depends on your belief as to whether or not the price will go up.  If you think it goes up a whole bunch then you should consider holding onto your mined coins a bit longer.


To me, it seems as though the only ones who actually feel the urge to complain, those who are quick to curse this gift of "free money essentially" seem to desire selling btc immediately for local fiat...this was always meant to be an activity that marginally rewards you for protecting the network.  The block reward halving is a way to wean out the reward structure for early adopters.  The thing is that alt-coins can and are sold on exchanges for BTC and can be mined at a much higher rate. 

Do not trick yourself into thinking that a sustainable career path could be made by mining btc and playing the hardware arms race upgrade game.  Hold your mined coins and only sell a small portion at any given time so that you don't lose from any other potential price climbs....conversely, if you really want your investment to pan out better (talking about if you dropped Grands upon grands on ASICS HW or GPU for scryptcoin), then start TELLING YOUR LOCAL MERCHANTS TO ACCEPT CRYPTO!  Keep a few bitcents on a mobile wallet, show them the mobile wallet and explain that is money in your pocket that could be in theirs if they are willing to accept BTC in addition to Cash and Cards. 

SATOSHI FOREST FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


FWIW I'll leave you with this bit on mining.genesisblock calculator = their calculation doesn't do network retarget adjustment - it does Exponential Curve Rates for Difficulty.  As we all know, asics HW MFG doesnt double month after month, sales do not double month after month, and if more people follow my advice with mining alts- that is hashpower that gradually transitions onto alt-chains as well.  Put it this way, do you buy 1 miner the first month, 2 miners the 2nd, 4 the 3rd month, 8 the 4th month, 16 the 5th month, 32 by six months in???  Can you really see 1 person even being able to manage that level of miners?  I don't...its not realistic.  Well the genesis block calculator seems to think that is absolutely realistic.  Yes its my opinion....no one really knows what to expect within the coming months.

One of the more cogent posts I've seen here in months...

[YipYip]

No one saw the network effect from the European Debt crisis and Cypress.  Not even Avalon...if you ask me...it should always be the standard that any bitcoin mining hardware companies should also be willing to accept bitcoin as a form of payment - Avalon saw this no differently.  If BTC had followed a more linear steady growth trend, it would probably have stayed at a lower rate for longer periods of time and there would be less demand for hardware.  I, like a great majority of other users here, got into bitcoin AFTER learning that the price of it could potentially Skyrocket in value,  not before. 


Why is it that every time I keep seeing people complain about not being able to perpetually make heaps and heaps of money simply for processing power - dude its Jurassic Park/Concrete Jungle status.  "Life Finds A Way"  which is why mining kept being pushed off to technology that could increase efficiency to stay above diminishing returns. 


Guys....MINE ALT COINS....seriously....MINE ALT COINS  when diff is too high for you to sit with.  Obviously there is a bit of a gamble here that depends on your belief as to whether or not the price will go up.  If you think it goes up a whole bunch then you should consider holding onto your mined coins a bit longer.


To me, it seems as though the only ones who actually feel the urge to complain, those who are quick to curse this gift of "free money essentially" seem to desire selling btc immediately for local fiat...this was always meant to be an activity that marginally rewards you for protecting the network.  The block reward halving is a way to wean out the reward structure for early adopters.  The thing is that alt-coins can and are sold on exchanges for BTC and can be mined at a much higher rate. 

Do not trick yourself into thinking that a sustainable career path could be made by mining btc and playing the hardware arms race upgrade game.  Hold your mined coins and only sell a small portion at any given time so that you don't lose from any other potential price climbs....conversely, if you really want your investment to pan out better (talking about if you dropped Grands upon grands on ASICS HW or GPU for scryptcoin), then start TELLING YOUR LOCAL MERCHANTS TO ACCEPT CRYPTO!  Keep a few bitcents on a mobile wallet, show them the mobile wallet and explain that is money in your pocket that could be in theirs if they are willing to accept BTC in addition to Cash and Cards. 

SATOSHI FOREST FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


FWIW I'll leave you with this bit on mining.genesisblock calculator = their calculation doesn't do network retarget adjustment - it does Exponential Curve Rates for Difficulty.  As we all know, asics HW MFG doesnt double month after month, sales do not double month after month, and if more people follow my advice with mining alts- that is hashpower that gradually transitions onto alt-chains as well.  Put it this way, do you buy 1 miner the first month, 2 miners the 2nd, 4 the 3rd month, 8 the 4th month, 16 the 5th month, 32 by six months in???  Can you really see 1 person even being able to manage that level of miners?  I don't...its not realistic.  Well the genesis block calculator seems to think that is absolutely realistic.  Yes its my opinion....no one really knows what to expect within the coming months.

One of the more cogent posts I've seen here in months...

We know what game you are upto areshole .....how are your personal mining operations going

Going to  release any more product today or going to keep the diff low

FTC I can hear the train coming down the track...!!!

[bcp19]

I really should ignore Yip-Yip... that way I could laugh every time I see "Yip-yip this user has been ignored'  Kinda like I ignore the little dogs that go yip-yip all the time.

[oktar]

Do you really believe network difficulty will drop soon? Come on, seriously? We have tons of asics to be soon delivered from KNC and other companies. Tons of ghash/s paid overpriced. I say difficulty will grow even faster than now.

I have some amount of bitcoins, I always look for a good investment but currently in BTC asic mining world there are absolutely NONE ! I'm not some enthusiast to care about network security, I simply want to earn some money when I invest.

Every offer that I analyse is a huge gamble, every offer gives loss in my calculation or barely small profit (with high risk). Even the Bitfury miners with devices delivered according to promises are not sure to get their money back, not mentioning shit like BFL where you recieve unit after a year and you can say goodbye to your roi - unless you find a sucker who will pay double for your order. BFL even doesn't accept refunds lol, take an example from Yifu. He did not deliver on time, he gives full refund. He is a scumbag as well because he sold our chips to Asia resellers like alibaba.com. That was the reason of adelay and turning his chips into not profitable. I was one of his customers, lucky for me I had "red light" moment when I decided to auction my chips and made some profit.

Recently I bought some GPUs to mine altcoins, your advice is good on that. My analysis showed that this is the only shot for now to go on with mining cryptocurrency.

My bitcoins are burning my pocket but I won't give them for overpriced products to greedy asic manufacturers.

Of course I never count on BTC value rise with my calculations because this is retarded. If you want to speculate with BTC value just buy BTC, not a miner. You will earn a lot more if your speculations were right.