The Matrix vs Inception

[blablahblah]

The Matrix:
The classic "brain in a vat" idea, brought to the masses. It obviously provoked a bit of thought in a lot of people. They even alluded to qualia and their unprovable, subjective nature (how do we know what chicken is supposed to taste like?). In toying with ideas like Solipsism (how do you know if other people are real, conscious beings? They could be soulless Agents projected as images in your mind.) and rebirth, they seem to implicitly reject Christian ideas of god (+1). OTOH they ran with some ROFL Zionist themes instead (Zion, the last human city, located in the centre of the Earth? Pulease.) so I guess you can't win them all.

Inception:
It rang a couple of alarm bells for me. Namely, if you peel away the special effects and dream-within-a-dream crap, you're left with a warmongering propaganda plot. The evil Iran wants to sell oil to the Chinese, so they must be stopped. And by the way, the FBI is all-powerful and are entitled to do whatever the hell they want, so deal with it. Uh, yeah right. And yes, wow, it seems to deep and meaningful that 'Inception' tried to embed things in the public mind, while talking about it. Dislike.

[FirstAscent]

The Matrix:
The classic "brain in a vat" idea, brought to the masses. It obviously provoked a bit of thought in a lot of people. They even alluded to qualia and their unprovable, subjective nature (how do we know what chicken is supposed to taste like?). In toying with ideas like Solipsism (how do you know if other people are real, conscious beings? They could be soulless Agents projected as images in your mind.) and rebirth, they seem to implicitly reject Christian ideas of god (+1). OTOH they ran with some ROFL Zionist themes instead (Zion, the last human city, located in the centre of the Earth? Pulease.) so I guess you can't win them all.

Inception:
It rang a couple of alarm bells for me. Namely, if you peel away the special effects and dream-within-a-dream crap, you're left with a warmongering propaganda plot. The evil Iran wants to sell oil to the Chinese, so they must be stopped. And by the way, the FBI is all-powerful and are entitled to do whatever the hell they want, so deal with it. Uh, yeah right. And yes, wow, it seems to deep and meaningful that 'Inception' tried to embed things in the public mind, while talking about it. Dislike.

Sorry to be repetitive, but there's better stuff out there. These two films just aren't the milestones in cinema for cerebral thought that people like to think they are. The themes in these films are big cliches. Nothing new was put into my mind upon watching them. I did not go "Whoa! Now I've got to think about that for a week." I made two lists a few posts back. Some of the films on the two lists are a bit mainstream and mundane, but I placed them there to make people think I wasn't into just listing out very obscure films. But the truth of the matter is, all the films on the list that you haven't heard of are critically acclaimed and big amongst cinephiles. And there's several on there that just really tap into your soul and make you think.

[jarhed]

.....And yes, wow, it seems to deep and meaningful that 'Inception' tried to embed things in the public mind, while talking about it. Dislike.

It's called "Mr. Charles".

[knappknackslive]

inception is pretty good BUT MATRIX IS EPUC

[blablahblah]

Sorry to be repetitive, but there's better stuff out there.

No problem, I was going with the OP's A vs B question. The list is appreciated. I'm not much of a movie buff -- mostly just lightweight relaxation for me, hence my negativity on Inception where I felt like I was getting sucked into the US' Iran-hating politics of 2010.

From the list, I think I've only seen 2001 A Space Odyssey. Of Kubrick's works (that I've seen), my favourites were "Dr. Strangelove" and "A Clockwork Orange". "Eyes Wide Shut" seemed to have similar "It's all just a dream" suggestive themes as Inception, but with more subtlety.

[FirstAscent]

Sorry to be repetitive, but there's better stuff out there.

No problem, I was going with the OP's A vs B question. The list is appreciated. I'm not much of a movie buff -- mostly just lightweight relaxation for me, hence my negativity on Inception where I felt like I was getting sucked into the US' Iran-hating politics of 2010.

From the list, I think I've only seen 2001 A Space Odyssey. Of Kubrick's works (that I've seen), my favourites were "Dr. Strangelove" and "A Clockwork Orange". "Eyes Wide Shut" seemed to have similar "It's all just a dream" suggestive themes as Inception, but with more subtlety.

Of Kubrick's, my favorite is 2001. It delivers on so many levels. The Face of Another to me, is a masterpiece beyond measure as well. You'd enjoy it more if you get familiar with the Japanese New Wave, and Tatsuya Nakadei as an actor.

In a nutshell:

2001: A Space Odyssey: Humanity's place in the Universe
The Face of Another: Psychological study of identity and its meaning
Pale Flower: Nihilism and self destruction
Yi Yi: Affirmation of being human
The Human Condition: Being defiant within a war machine
Woman in the Dunes: Another muse on identity and its role in society
Sansho the Bailiff: I don't know where to begin
2046: A meditation on love and longing
In the Mood for Love: same as above

All very cerebral. All very powerful. All critically acclaimed. All promoting discussion.

To me, The Matrix and Inception don't quite measure up. But you have to step outside of mainstream Hollywood cinema to discover the true treasures. Hollywood films are studio driven, which means they are designed by a committee to make money first.

[xkeyscore89]

Matrix

[hawkeye]

Inception:
It rang a couple of alarm bells for me. Namely, if you peel away the special effects and dream-within-a-dream crap, you're left with a warmongering propaganda plot. The evil Iran wants to sell oil to the Chinese, so they must be stopped. And by the way, the FBI is all-powerful and are entitled to do whatever the hell they want, so deal with it. Uh, yeah right. And yes, wow, it seems to deep and meaningful that 'Inception' tried to embed things in the public mind, while talking about it. Dislike.

I remember thinking something like this when watching the film but didn't think about it too deeply.  Sounds like it may be right, though I'm struggling to remember...  I may have to watch it again.

There was also the stuff in The Dark Knight (same director) which kind of had the whole thing about the ends justifying the means, surveillance being OK if it is used by "the good guys", etc.  So Nolan is not a stranger to putting forth government propaganda.  

[FirstAscent]

Matrix > Inception > Matrix 2 > A poke in the eye with a blunt stick > Matrix 3

Saying something is greater than a poke in the eye with a blunt stick isn't saying much. And by extension, saying something is greater than something that is greater than a poke in the eye with a blunt stick isn't saying much. And by extension, saying something is greater than something that is greater than something that is greater than a poke in the eye with a blunt stick isn't saying much.

And thus we can't truly conclude that The Matrix is anything great at all. And by extension, we can't conclude that Inception is anything great at all. And by further extension, we can't conclude that Matrix 2 is anything great at all.

This is troubling for those seeking whether such films might be enriching.

Alternatively, I have offered some film recommendations that are not only greater than a poke in the eye with a blunt stick, but just plain great.

[FirstAscent]

Matrix > Inception > Matrix 2 > A poke in the eye with a blunt stick > Matrix 3

Saying something is greater than a poke in the eye with a blunt stick isn't saying much. And by extension, saying something is greater than something that is greater than a poke in the eye with a blunt stick isn't saying much. And by extension, saying something is greater than something that is greater than something that is greater than a poke in the eye with a blunt stick isn't saying much.

And thus we can't truly conclude that The Matrix is anything great at all. And by extension, we can't conclude that Inception is anything great at all. And by further extension, we can't conclude that Matrix 2 is anything great at all.

This is troubling for those seeking whether such films might be enriching.

Alternatively, I have offered some film recommendations that are not only greater than a poke in the eye with a blunt stick, but just plain great.

Maybe I should have broken it up into two statements:

• Matrix > Inception > Matrix 2
• A poke in the eye with a blunt stick > Matrix 3

I am sure that there may be some debate as to whether the first statement is in the correct order. But I doubt that there would be many people who would disagree with the second statement

This doesn't change anything. We still don't really know if The Matrix is better than getting crapped on by an elephant. Even that's not saying much of anything either. Is The Matrix better than eating green eggs and ham in a box with a fox? Is it better than eating green eggs and ham in house with a mouse? We don't know these things.

I truly doubt it's as mentally stimulating and mind bending as The Face of Another though. Nor do I believe it's as profound as Yi Yi.

[Light]

Personally, The Matrix was a far deeper than Inception, it really provoked and challenged my thinking of the world around me (for example perception vs reality and relativism) . Inception was an interesting concept, but it didn't really make me question anything really.

[solex]

Which is deeper?

And how can I get deeper still, I wish to explore.

Altered States
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080360/

33 years ago this film was revolutionary for being "out there" and deep!

[hawkeye]

E.g.: Don't get me started on "V for Vendetta" -- a psychological Trojan horse / poisoned chalice of mixed messages. A vigilante who's sort-of meant to be a good guy against a backdrop of an evil dictatorial state, goes around killing people and applying his own brutal tactics with zero due process. He kidnaps and imprisons the heroine to "toughen her up". They show this fake "crowd inspiration" thing with the anonymous masks. They throw in some church = paedophilia themes, and how the state oppresses gays, and all of that is meant to justify the whole Guy Fawkes + blow up parliament thing... To me that movie seemed really divisive, as if it was deliberately designed to burn bridges between the Baby Boomers and Gen Y, or whatever groups are likely to hold different political views.

Sorry, went a bit OT there, but there's my review

That's an interesting interpretation.  And probably has merit to it.  Rather than wander OT, maybe we should start a thread about propaganda in movies.  There's a few other fairly recent ones I can think of off the top of my head.

[FinShaggy]

Which is deeper?

And how can I get deeper still, I wish to explore.

My asshole is deeper than those movies.

The Matrix theory has been around since before Pilgrims, and Inception was just like "Let's go six layers in, but not actually get into any real world dream science."

[FirstAscent]

Which is deeper?

And how can I get deeper still, I wish to explore.

My asshole is deeper than those movies.

The Matrix theory has been around since before Pilgrims, and Inception was just like "Let's go six layers in, but not actually get into any real world dream science."

Pretty much agreed. I'll keep repeating myself until someone gets it. Watch these instead:

2001: A Space Odyssey: Humanity's place in the Universe
The Face of Another: Psychological study of identity and its meaning
Pale Flower: Nihilism and self destruction
Yi Yi: Affirmation of being human
The Human Condition: Being defiant within a war machine
Woman in the Dunes: Another muse on identity and its role in society
Sansho the Bailiff: I don't know where to begin
2046: A meditation on love and longing
In the Mood for Love: same as above
Days of Being Wild: same as above

[FinShaggy]

Which is deeper?

And how can I get deeper still, I wish to explore.

My asshole is deeper than those movies.

The Matrix theory has been around since before Pilgrims, and Inception was just like "Let's go six layers in, but not actually get into any real world dream science."

Pretty much agreed. I'll keep repeating myself until someone gets it. Watch these instead:

2001: A Space Odyssey: Humanity's place in the Universe
The Face of Another: Psychological study of identity and its meaning
Pale Flower: Nihilism and self destruction
Yi Yi: Affirmation of being human
The Human Condition: Being defiant within a war machine
Woman in the Dunes: Another muse on identity and its role in society
Sansho the Bailiff: I don't know where to begin
2046: A meditation on love and longing
In the Mood for Love: same as above
Days of Being Wild: same as above

Definitely will check them out.

Have you seen I Heart Huckabees?

[FirstAscent]

Which is deeper?

And how can I get deeper still, I wish to explore.

My asshole is deeper than those movies.

The Matrix theory has been around since before Pilgrims, and Inception was just like "Let's go six layers in, but not actually get into any real world dream science."

Pretty much agreed. I'll keep repeating myself until someone gets it. Watch these instead:

2001: A Space Odyssey: Humanity's place in the Universe
The Face of Another: Psychological study of identity and its meaning
Pale Flower: Nihilism and self destruction
Yi Yi: Affirmation of being human
The Human Condition: Being defiant within a war machine
Woman in the Dunes: Another muse on identity and its role in society
Sansho the Bailiff: I don't know where to begin
2046: A meditation on love and longing
In the Mood for Love: same as above
Days of Being Wild: same as above

Definitely will check them out.

Have you seen I Heart Huckabees?

I have not. I don't even think I've heard of it. I'll look it up.

Now, in regard to deepness, my selections, although most are unheard of to the crowd here, are rather famous (2001 being obvious), but the other selections are major, just not to Joe Sixpack and Soccer Mom Sally. I think most of those picks are on the top 100 films of all time, on several polls, and picks of critics and film festivals worldwide. In other words, I'm not just naming some obscure favorites of mine - I'm naming cinematic treasures.

They are deep, profound, beautiful, thought provoking, and emotionally affecting. But you've got to be willing to watch subtitles, and in some cases, black and white. If that puts you off, then you're just not choosing to walk through that door which leads to other cultural riches of cinema.

Are you going to step through that door?

[FinShaggy]

Ever since I said that the Matrix theory was older than Pilgrims, I wanted to prove it.

When I was like 14, I was into Gnosticism and Archons and I ran into a page on Wikipedia. According to my memory, it was about the middle ages, and demons called "Flyers" that create an illusionary world for us to believe in, while they farm us like in the Matrix (aka we die).

But I can't find the article. I've tried all variations of: Flyers, Gliders, Demons, Middle Ages, Illusion, False Reality, Matrix
And I can't find it...

[FirstAscent]

Ever since I said that the Matrix theory was older than Pilgrims, I wanted to prove it.

When I was like 14, I was into Gnosticism and Archons and I ran into a page on Wikipedia. According to my memory, it was about the middle ages, and demons called "Flyers" that create an illusionary world for us to believe in, while they farm us like in the Matrix (aka we die).

But I can't find the article. I've tried all variations of: Flyers, Gliders, Demons, Middle Ages, Illusion, False Reality, Matrix
And I can't find it...

The Matrix put nothing new in my head, nor did it affect me in any deep way, either emotionally, or in a cerebral way. Watch my movie selections. Trust me.

[FinShaggy]

Which is deeper?

And how can I get deeper still, I wish to explore.

My asshole is deeper than those movies.

The Matrix theory has been around since before Pilgrims, and Inception was just like "Let's go six layers in, but not actually get into any real world dream science."

Pretty much agreed. I'll keep repeating myself until someone gets it. Watch these instead:

2001: A Space Odyssey: Humanity's place in the Universe
The Face of Another: Psychological study of identity and its meaning
Pale Flower: Nihilism and self destruction
Yi Yi: Affirmation of being human
The Human Condition: Being defiant within a war machine
Woman in the Dunes: Another muse on identity and its role in society
Sansho the Bailiff: I don't know where to begin
2046: A meditation on love and longing
In the Mood for Love: same as above
Days of Being Wild: same as above

Definitely will check them out.

Have you seen I Heart Huckabees?

I have not. I don't even think I've heard of it. I'll look it up.

Now, in regard to deepness, my selections, although most are unheard of to the crowd here, are rather famous (2001 being obvious), but the other selections are major, just not to Joe Sixpack and Soccer Mom Sally. I think most of those picks are on the top 100 films of all time, on several polls, and picks of critics and film festivals worldwide. In other words, I'm not just naming some obscure favorites of mine - I'm naming cinematic treasures.

They are deep, profound, beautiful, thought provoking, and emotionally affecting. But you've got to be willing to watch subtitles, and in some cases, black and white. If that puts you off, then you're just not choosing to walk through that door which leads to other cultural riches of cinema.

Are you going to step through that door?

I didn't just list a movie I liked either, it's a crazy movie about coincidence, and will power, and giving in to the flow. Or not giving in.
It may not be a classic or a "cinematic gem", but it's an awesome movie about human nature and the universe.

I'm down to read subtitles, once I get into a movie, I don't even realize I'm reading.