Bitcoin Forum

Which is deeper?

And how can I get deeper still, I wish to explore.

In a sense "Cloud Atlas" was even deeper than "Matrix"

Yes, although I almost don't put it in the same category and can't easily describe why, Cloud Atlas is an important film.

How about V for Vendetta?

As much as I loved Inception, The Matrix with its allegory of the cave, when applied to modern society, just takes the cake for me.

And I am pretending those other two Matrix movies don't exist.

Just watch both.  They are both worth it for different reasons.

I agree that the matrix sequels are a letdown and best just to pretend they don't exist.


http://www.simulation-argument.com/

The Matrix got most of it's ideas/style from a comic called the Invisibles. Well worth a read (warning, it's all kinds of trippy)

I think the philosophical substance in Matrix 2 and 3 is good, but the movies were poorly executed.

SPOILER WARNING: Dark City, and the 13th Floor both deal with the theme of living in simulations. The 13th Floor was adapted from a great book called "Simulacron 3" by D.F. Galouye. Well worth a read.

Also check out "Permutation City" by Greg Egan. His novel "Diaspora" also touches on this.

There's also a novel whose name and author I can't remember which deals with a world wherein most of humanity has migrated into "the Bin", a simulated world. Anyone know of this?

And SPOILER WARNING: "Bios" and "The Harvest", by the always excellent Robert Charles Wilson.

Also: "Time Out of Joint", by the great Philip K. Dick.

Yeah, anything by Philip K. Dick tops these films.

Moon by Duncan Jones was a surprisingly interesting and deep sci-fi movie.

Inception is deeper.

The Matrix: A definition of a trance.

Inception: A step by step process on how to jack info while in trance.

Check out "Alice In Wonderland" to go deeper. ;D

Here are two films that are about hundred times deeper than either:

The Face of Another
Yi Yi

Of course, other deep films, masterpieces of the existential, cinema of the cerebral, include:

2001: A Space Odyessey
The Human Condition
Woman in the Dunes
The Seventh Seal
Hiroshima mon amour
Pale Flower
Sansho the Bailiff
The Spirit of the Beehive
Memento
No Country for Old Men
Days of Being Wild
In the Mood for Love
2046
The Thin Red Line
Moon

Both are good but nothing beats the Age of Heroes

Are you referring to a 2011 film?

Yup because the rating is the depth of the movie, not the technicalities and effects whatsoever.

Behind enemy line is definitely deep.  :D

Whichever way you interpret its it.

I haven't seen it, but it's getting 50 percent reviews on every site. I understand that it might have some niche appeal, but...

I wholeheartedly encourage you to explore what cinema offers at different levels. I have recommended seventeen films in two posts. Mind expanding experiences await you. Have you seen any of them?

Isn't No Country for Old Men about some guy walking around cow killing everyone..........what's deep about that?

It's a psychological thriller that explores the nature of fate, chance, greed, madness, revenge, timing. Granted, it's probably the least deep or existential of those on the list. It's there, in a sense, to show that the list is not entirely devoid of being in touch with every man's cinema, mainstream cinema, so to speak. Discount it if you wish. Start right in with the meatier content. Begin with The Face of Another, if you will.

These kept me busy for a while

11:14
Fargo
Boxing day

The Matrix:
The classic "brain in a vat" idea, brought to the masses. It obviously provoked a bit of thought in a lot of people. They even alluded to qualia and their unprovable, subjective nature (how do we know what chicken is supposed to taste like?). In toying with ideas like Solipsism (how do you know if other people are real, conscious beings? They could be soulless Agents projected as images in your mind.) and rebirth, they seem to implicitly reject Christian ideas of god (+1). OTOH they ran with some ROFL Zionist themes instead (Zion, the last human city, located in the centre of the Earth? Pulease.) so I guess you can't win them all.

Inception:
It rang a couple of alarm bells for me. Namely, if you peel away the special effects and dream-within-a-dream crap, you're left with a warmongering propaganda plot. The evil Iran wants to sell oil to the Chinese, so they must be stopped. And by the way, the FBI is all-powerful and are entitled to do whatever the hell they want, so deal with it. Uh, yeah right. And yes, wow, it seems to deep and meaningful that 'Inception' tried to embed things in the public mind, while talking about it. Dislike.

Sorry to be repetitive, but there's better stuff out there. These two films just aren't the milestones in cinema for cerebral thought that people like to think they are. The themes in these films are big cliches. Nothing new was put into my mind upon watching them. I did not go "Whoa! Now I've got to think about that for a week." I made two lists a few posts back. Some of the films on the two lists are a bit mainstream and mundane, but I placed them there to make people think I wasn't into just listing out very obscure films. But the truth of the matter is, all the films on the list that you haven't heard of are critically acclaimed and big amongst cinephiles. And there's several on there that just really tap into your soul and make you think.

It's called "Mr. Charles".

inception is pretty good BUT MATRIX IS EPUC

No problem, I was going with the OP's A vs B question. The list is appreciated. I'm not much of a movie buff -- mostly just lightweight relaxation for me, hence my negativity on Inception where I felt like I was getting sucked into the US' Iran-hating politics of 2010.

From the list, I think I've only seen 2001 A Space Odyssey. Of Kubrick's works (that I've seen), my favourites were "Dr. Strangelove" and "A Clockwork Orange". "Eyes Wide Shut" seemed to have similar "It's all just a dream" suggestive themes as Inception, but with more subtlety.

Of Kubrick's, my favorite is 2001. It delivers on so many levels. The Face of Another to me, is a masterpiece beyond measure as well. You'd enjoy it more if you get familiar with the Japanese New Wave, and Tatsuya Nakadei as an actor.

In a nutshell:

2001: A Space Odyssey: Humanity's place in the Universe
The Face of Another: Psychological study of identity and its meaning
Pale Flower: Nihilism and self destruction
Yi Yi: Affirmation of being human
The Human Condition: Being defiant within a war machine
Woman in the Dunes: Another muse on identity and its role in society
Sansho the Bailiff: I don't know where to begin
2046: A meditation on love and longing
In the Mood for Love: same as above

All very cerebral. All very powerful. All critically acclaimed. All promoting discussion.

To me, The Matrix and Inception don't quite measure up. But you have to step outside of mainstream Hollywood cinema to discover the true treasures. Hollywood films are studio driven, which means they are designed by a committee to make money first.

Matrix

I remember thinking something like this when watching the film but didn't think about it too deeply.  Sounds like it may be right, though I'm struggling to remember...  I may have to watch it again.

There was also the stuff in The Dark Knight (same director) which kind of had the whole thing about the ends justifying the means, surveillance being OK if it is used by "the good guys", etc.  So Nolan is not a stranger to putting forth government propaganda.  

Saying something is greater than a poke in the eye with a blunt stick isn't saying much. And by extension, saying something is greater than something that is greater than a poke in the eye with a blunt stick isn't saying much. And by extension, saying something is greater than something that is greater than something that is greater than a poke in the eye with a blunt stick isn't saying much.

And thus we can't truly conclude that The Matrix is anything great at all. And by extension, we can't conclude that Inception is anything great at all. And by further extension, we can't conclude that Matrix 2 is anything great at all.

This is troubling for those seeking whether such films might be enriching.

Alternatively, I have offered some film recommendations that are not only greater than a poke in the eye with a blunt stick, but just plain great.

This doesn't change anything. We still don't really know if The Matrix is better than getting crapped on by an elephant. Even that's not saying much of anything either. Is The Matrix better than eating green eggs and ham in a box with a fox? Is it better than eating green eggs and ham in house with a mouse? We don't know these things.

I truly doubt it's as mentally stimulating and mind bending as The Face of Another though. Nor do I believe it's as profound as Yi Yi.

Personally, The Matrix was a far deeper than Inception, it really provoked and challenged my thinking of the world around me (for example perception vs reality and relativism) . Inception was an interesting concept, but it didn't really make me question anything really.

Altered States
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080360/

33 years ago this film was revolutionary for being "out there" and deep!

That's an interesting interpretation.  And probably has merit to it.  Rather than wander OT, maybe we should start a thread about propaganda in movies.  There's a few other fairly recent ones I can think of off the top of my head.

My asshole is deeper than those movies.

The Matrix theory has been around since before Pilgrims, and Inception was just like "Let's go six layers in, but not actually get into any real world dream science."

Pretty much agreed. I'll keep repeating myself until someone gets it. Watch these instead:

2001: A Space Odyssey: Humanity's place in the Universe
The Face of Another: Psychological study of identity and its meaning
Pale Flower: Nihilism and self destruction
Yi Yi: Affirmation of being human
The Human Condition: Being defiant within a war machine
Woman in the Dunes: Another muse on identity and its role in society
Sansho the Bailiff: I don't know where to begin
2046: A meditation on love and longing
In the Mood for Love: same as above
Days of Being Wild: same as above

Definitely will check them out.

Have you seen I Heart Huckabees?

I have not. I don't even think I've heard of it. I'll look it up.

Now, in regard to deepness, my selections, although most are unheard of to the crowd here, are rather famous (2001 being obvious), but the other selections are major, just not to Joe Sixpack and Soccer Mom Sally. I think most of those picks are on the top 100 films of all time, on several polls, and picks of critics and film festivals worldwide. In other words, I'm not just naming some obscure favorites of mine - I'm naming cinematic treasures.

They are deep, profound, beautiful, thought provoking, and emotionally affecting. But you've got to be willing to watch subtitles, and in some cases, black and white. If that puts you off, then you're just not choosing to walk through that door which leads to other cultural riches of cinema.

Are you going to step through that door?

Ever since I said that the Matrix theory was older than Pilgrims, I wanted to prove it.

When I was like 14, I was into Gnosticism and Archons and I ran into a page on Wikipedia. According to my memory, it was about the middle ages, and demons called "Flyers" that create an illusionary world for us to believe in, while they farm us like in the Matrix (aka we die).

But I can't find the article. I've tried all variations of: Flyers, Gliders, Demons, Middle Ages, Illusion, False Reality, Matrix
And I can't find it...

The Matrix put nothing new in my head, nor did it affect me in any deep way, either emotionally, or in a cerebral way. Watch my movie selections. Trust me.

I didn't just list a movie I liked either, it's a crazy movie about coincidence, and will power, and giving in to the flow. Or not giving in.
It may not be a classic or a "cinematic gem", but it's an awesome movie about human nature and the universe.

I'm down to read subtitles, once I get into a movie, I don't even realize I'm reading.

You've just been handed gold. And I will take a look at your suggestion. Thank you.

I mean, it put new stuff in my head, but I was 5 when I saw it, so most of the stuff in the Matrix was new to me.

But I was on mushrooms with some friends once, and they were all talking about the Matrix, and I was just kinda sitting there silently thinking about all their words.

And I finally decided to speak, and I said: "Its just like, a movie about having all the cheat codes in a video game". And they all felt really stupid for talking about it like it was such an important movie.

Even the difference between being "in" and "out" of the matrix. It's just like a gamer contrasting his own shitty reality (living in his mom's basement) to the game (being a awesome murder hero). And he's even a hacker, he just "mods" life. And the programmers (people like mouse, Morpheus, etc) are all amazed because they have to go through shit tons of code, and still can't make things like that happen in the game. "Video Game Jesus".

The Matrix just isn't deep. Period.

Watch Edward Yang's Yi Yi, and you'll realize there is a higher level of cinema. A random Google search yielded this review linked below. I don't necessarily want you to read it all the way through, as there may be spoilers, but you might read the first paragraph or so to get an idea of the greatness of the film. See review: http://www.reverseshot.com/article/13_yi_yi

Sounds like a good movie, he almost just writes about how it affected him in the review, and not the movie itself.

He echoes my sentiments, and pretty much everyone I know who has seen it, and in discussion on line. It is one of the most important films made, and cinephiles know it. Interestingly, another film on my list shows up in that series (best films of the decade). I didn't plan this. I just discovered the site a few minutes ago. Here's the other film: http://www.reverseshot.com/article/3_mood_love

Shutter Island is deep,even Watchmen is deeper than the Matrix.But Inception is a great movie,not just deep drama stuff but great cinematography great actions and superb acting for that kind of movie.So Inception is a masterpiece  :)

Inception was a good MOVIE I'll give it that. It was a good idea. But it wasn't like, educational. Except that I know not to fall asleep on Airplanes now... Right?

Oldboy (2003)

Hopefully they will not screw so much with the 2013 remake ...

There was a discussion about this film in this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=293034.0

Essentially, if you're willing to go that far, you've cheated yourself unless you've gone a lot farther.

Dun no yet.

Inception.

Am I really the only one who likes The Matrix as a trilogy? I thought it only started to get anywhere near "deep" after the first movie.

I love the Matrix trilogy as well!!!
First the drama,then the action and the resolution.It`s great.

Matrix all the way.Inception was intelligent and kept us wondering. But, the matrix is so much more thought out and intelligent. Also, you never know what 'really' happened. May, be a bit bias but I would choose Matrix over Inception any day.


Although, the other matrix movies aren't great. But, normally follow ups are poor.

I personally found V for Vendetta to be a 'deep' movie and also I could relate the society to our own.

Relating more and more every day.

And I love that movie!

Define deep without describing specifics to V.

You've never saw V for Vendetta?

I have the Blu-ray of V for Vendetta still in its shrink wrap from over a year ago. In the interim, I have chosen to watch other movies instead, which I'm pleased to say that I have now watched. Here's a brief clip from one such movie (directed by a director far more famous than the director of V for Vendetta). Said movie has likely given me far more pleasure than I might have derived from V for Vendetta. Here's the clip to that movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wI6LfigwYA

The clip you just watched was from a movie entitled Equinox Flower. You did watch the clip, did you not? I tell you what. I'll watch V for Vendetta if you watch another fine movie entitled Yi Yi. That's a film that has been critically acclaimed, and voted one of the greater films ever made. V for Vendetta was not voted as such. Here's the trailer for Yi Yi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F6tSorwYqw

Stop everything you are doing and watch V for Vendetta! :D

Actually, I've suggested V for Vendetta because it is somewhat related to the topic as it has the same writers as The Matrix.

I'm a big Wachowski brothers fan (I await patiently for their upcoming sci-fi tv series), and the underlying theme of The Matrix, V for Vendetta and Cloud Atlas is very similar, revolt against the system, they work as mind openers and we can relate those stories with our own society.

Not a spoiler: V is "Agent Smith".

I'm aware of those top movies of all time critics choice, I've watched a few like Citizen Kane, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Mulholland Dr., Taxi Driver and more.

I have to confess that I'm not a big Japanese cinema fan, I've watched a few from Takeshi Kitano, and others that I don't remember now.

I already had Yi Yi on my to watch list, but I can't make promises.

1. V for Vendetta (2005)
2. The Matrix (1999)

That's irrelevant in this context. Kitano is contemporary, and as with all films, there are different genres. The fifties was an exceptionally fruitful period for Japanese cinema, and many of the films from that time and region are considered to be some of the most revered and acclaimed films of all time. As it turns out, the first clip I posted is from a director who has another film which placed number one on Sight & Sound poll's greatest films of all time, right above Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odyssey. Another film from him placed at around number fifteen.

More to the point, by building a familiarity with those films, a certain magical thing happens as you develop an affinity for them which results in a great deal of pleasure to be gained from watching them. Furthermore, they're rather heavy in their themes - they are not light and frivolous films.


Watch that film now. It is a masterpiece. Seriously. And I'll watch V.

You must watch a lot of movies. You seem to know about every movie out there and contribute to every thread about movies. Although Vedetta was a amazing movie. You really need to be awake & concentrate whilst watching.

@FirstAscent

Yi Yi Running time: 173 minutes, maybe tomorrow...

Here's the first V's speech: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACUpr5GvVsE

:)

If you're interested in movies which require being awake and concentrating, and payoff because you do concentrate, I can suggest some. Recently, I try to focus on critically acclaimed films, old and new, foreign or not. There's a difference in such films from Hollywood studio driven material. That's not to say I don't enjoy modern Hollywood cinema, only that I focus more of my time on what I call better cinema.

I have seen that clip! It is fun. Regarding Yi Yi, yes, it is nearly three lovely hours long. And you better not watch it on a smartphone, or in the company of chatty friends. It is a film to be paid attention to, to let it seep into your soul one scene at a time, where upon you will find it is more than the sum its parts.

The inception was created by the Machines to trick humans into wasting time and not finding out how to revolt
So The Matrix is deeper.

I voted for "The Matrix", maybe because I watched it way earlier than "Inception" and I was easier to impress at the time.

Great thread overall with lots of great movies listed.
Here are a few deep ones from my list:

"Donnie Darko"
"Mr. Nobody"
"The Game" with Michael Douglas

Cheers.

Ever notice there's that one reviewer on Amazon for some film, and he says something like this: "This film could really stand to be edited down, cutting about 30 minutes from its overly long presentation."

Note: I'm not saying anyone said that here. I'm just saying those guys are amateur film critics that need to learn a thing or five about film, typically. I think it's interesting that the more watched you become, with regard to cinema, the more you appreciate films which take their time, which linger, which are long.

Said idiots had best stay away from the films made by the likes of Yang, Kubrick, Ozu, Diaz, and so on. If you can't digest why a director may be letting the camera linger on an empty hallway, then please, just move on.

And to add to the above, you should check out this video: https://vimeo.com/68514760

I voted for the Matrix.  Thought the movies were all right, not as great as the attention they garnered in their time though.

"Enter the Void"

I like the Inception more. :)