PSA: Do NOT buy Bitfury BF1 USB Miner - It will not ROI.

[integrity42]

This seems like a pretty unfair topic. I know you are just trying to warn potential buyers who haven't done their homework, but really...

"Do NOT buy any ASIC miner if you are looking for a guaranteed ROI" - FTFY

There is probably a lot of truth to that, ASICs are not looking profitable atm. unless you can get them for about $20/GH/s or less delivered in the next month or two. The net hash got very close to 1 PH/s this week, probably pass it in the next peak.

I'm not even sure the 400 GH October BitFury units will ever ROI in BTC at 20$/GH if they don't ship until late October. There seem to be very few ASICs mining purchases right now that look reasonable.

Exactly.  ASIC Mining has been a fiasco ever since Avalon Batch #2 was delayed.
- BFL,
- Avalon Chip orders & Batch #3.
- Friedcat/AM Blades & USB Eruptors.

Millions of dollars have been lost by consumers to these companies.  It is a complete fiasco. I am doing the entire community a service for calling out overpriced hardware.

- I am helping consumers from losing large amounts of money
- I am helping companies from being sued by consumers who are pissed about losing large amounts of money
- I am helping companies price their products accordingly so that they can create a healthy bitcoin economy.

I now urge Big Picture Mining to post a PSA to all other contract manufacturer who are buying BitFury chips that they are totally overpriced and not to buy them.

We have to go all the way up the foodchain to the chip manufacturers if we want to continue to have decentralized mining.  Otherwise no consumers will ever buy hardware again, and mining will be centralized in the hands of a few manufacturers.

Want to do the right thing for Bitcoin and to keep the network safe? Then say no to overpriced hardware and spread the word.

[1714861174]

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[1714861174]

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[Bicknellski]

They are selling for 2.1 to 2.5 BTC each.

They will not ever make back more then 1 BTC.

Bitfury will laugh all the way to the bank at all the idiots why buy this.

http://www.btcinvest.net/bitcoin-mining-profit-calculator.php?diff=86933017.771194&dcosts=320&diff_mincrease=25&blpbtc=25&dhsmhs=2500&diff_mincreasedecrease=3&btcusd=127.38&dpowcon=5&btcusd_mincrease=1&pcost=0.15&calcweeks=32&dleadtime=0&action=calc

It isn't their fault that mining is currently unprofitable unless you throw down a big heap of investment capital up front. The units cost what they cost to produce, end of story. If you don't like it then don't buy any. There is no need for a flame thread because you can't comprehend this.

I sort of welcome good flame threads don't you? This one not sure where it is going considering the conversation here was already happening in the sales thread... I wonder why anyone would want to distract people away from there?

[AndrewWilliams]

Stop the madness people!

If you stop buying hardware with unreasonable ROI, manufacturers will be forced to lower their unreasonable pricing.

12 months + for ROI is NOT reasonable!

You do know that the hardware is basically trash after that time, right? And this won't be an easy resell like GPU's since these are one-purpose miners.




They will only price hardware at the price the market will bare, and right now, a lot of you are basically bending over saying "I'll pay whatever you want as long as it has ASIC chips! No matter if it might not / may barely break even!"

Enough! 

[Xian01]

12 months + for ROI is NOT reasonable!

 Traditional investors would disagree with you.

[integrity42]

12 months + for ROI is NOT reasonable!

 Traditional investors would disagree with you.

What he meant to say is that 12 months for ROI, risk-adjusted for difficulty increases, is NOT reasonable.

[lightfoot]

I'm serious: One way to fix the whole ROI thing is to use the miners for extra work loads that can generate profit.

Like water heating. So who is going to take an old copper hot water solar panel, affix 100 block erupters, and sell it to someone to use to heat their household water and mine bitcoins in the background?

Bitcoin space heaters? How about a Bitcoin oven for the kitchen?

C

[lightfoot]

They will only price hardware at the price the market will bare, and right now, a lot of you are basically bending over saying "I'll pay whatever you want as long as it has ASIC chips! No matter if it might not / may barely break even!"

Enough!  

Sorry, Bitcoin mining is a queen's race. People are not good at spotting that.

Human nature.

C

[AndrewWilliams]

12 months + for ROI is NOT reasonable!

 Traditional investors would disagree with you.

What kind of investors would they be? Foolish investors? They might be happier investing in CD's at the bank and getting 2-3%.

Anyway you cut it, 12 months for ROI is stupid. At least with CD's you have your principle at the end. With mining, your principle (the hardware) slowly disappears as time goes on and difficulty increases. At the end of 12 months, your principle is gone!


EXPLAIN HOW THAT IS REASONABLE?! 

[EskimoBob]

Thank you for warning

My attempt to find a piece of existing! (not "will be available in N months") hardware/chip, that can keep up with current rise in difficulty has failed. I used http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/
Because of huge risk and 0 liquidity and loss of value involved with mining equipment, I like to see at least 30% ROI in 6 months. (did you see, how I used ROI!)


Now, this funny use of ROI.

LOL, "12 months for ROI" ummm. what? "It will not ROI"? Really? WTF that even means?

How about "12 months for USD"? Sounds idiotic? How about "It will not euro"?  LOL
This is not how ROI is used. ROI is metric. You need a number like 10% or 50% or 10 BTC etc.

Code:

"return on investment (%) = (Net profit / Investment) × 100%" or  "return on investment = gain from investment/ cost of investment" 

You do not say "I have ROI in 12 months", you say "I break even in 12 months".
"I had 12% ROI in 1 months" is fine but "I had ROI in 1 month"

[jamesc760]

idi0ts who part their hard earned money/btc for Bitfury BF1 USB Miner will soon get hemorROIdes from receiving ass-pounding.

[Maidak]

Are these actually up for sale with delivery right now? Or is this talking about pre orders?

[AndrewWilliams]

Thank you for warning

My attempt to find a piece of existing! (not "will be available in N months") hardware/chip, that can keep up with current rise in difficulty has failed. I used http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/
Because of huge risk and 0 liquidity and loss of value involved with mining equipment, I like to see at least 30% ROI in 6 months. (did you see, how I used ROI!)


Now, this funny use of ROI.

LOL, "12 months for ROI" ummm. what? "It will not ROI"? Really? WTF that even means?

How about "12 months for USD"? Sounds idiotic? How about "It will not euro"?  LOL
This is not how ROI is used. ROI is metric. You need a number like 10% or 50% or 10 BTC etc.

Code:

"return on investment (%) = (Net profit / Investment) × 100%" or  "return on investment = gain from investment/ cost of investment" 

You do not say "I have ROI in 12 months", you say "I break even in 12 months".
"I had 12% ROI in 1 months" is fine but "I had ROI in 1 month"

ROI can be used in the context your used OR in the context everyone else is using, including me.

Saying, 12 months to get ROI, is short for saying, it will take me 12 months to get 100% ROI.
You can focus on symantics, I'll focus on the big picture

[GodHatesFigs]

12 months + for ROI is NOT reasonable!

 Traditional investors would disagree with you.

What he meant to say is that 12 months for ROI, risk-adjusted for difficulty increases, is NOT reasonable.

Finally someone understands that returns have to be adjusted for risk!

[console_cowboy]

12 months + for ROI is NOT reasonable!

 Traditional investors would disagree with you.

What he meant to say is that 12 months for ROI, risk-adjusted for difficulty increases, is NOT reasonable.

Finally someone understands that returns have to be adjusted for risk!

I don't know why people forget that bitcoin mining is a very risky venture! Especially with asics that will be worthless in a few months. The currently rising difficulty is almost too much to deal with, before pricing in expensive asics.

[erk]

Thank you for warning

My attempt to find a piece of existing! (not "will be available in N months") hardware/chip, that can keep up with current rise in difficulty has failed. I used http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/
Because of huge risk and 0 liquidity and loss of value involved with mining equipment, I like to see at least 30% ROI in 6 months. (did you see, how I used ROI!)


Now, this funny use of ROI.

LOL, "12 months for ROI" ummm. what? "It will not ROI"? Really? WTF that even means?

How about "12 months for USD"? Sounds idiotic? How about "It will not euro"?  LOL
This is not how ROI is used. ROI is metric. You need a number like 10% or 50% or 10 BTC etc.

Code:

"return on investment (%) = (Net profit / Investment) × 100%" or  "return on investment = gain from investment/ cost of investment" 

You do not say "I have ROI in 12 months", you say "I break even in 12 months".
"I had 12% ROI in 1 months" is fine but "I had ROI in 1 month"

We talk about a positive ROI here, it's assumed people understand this without it having to be spelled out each time.

[ajw7989]

Best thing to do is wait it out until difficulty starts to plateau then you will have a better idea what can make a ROI. By then who knows what will be profitable especially with all these 400GH/s machines or more coming out.

[bcp19]

They are selling for 2.1 to 2.5 BTC each.

They will not ever make back more then 1 BTC.

Bitfury will laugh all the way to the bank at all the idiots why buy this.

http://www.btcinvest.net/bitcoin-mining-profit-calculator.php?diff=86933017.771194&dcosts=320&diff_mincrease=25&blpbtc=25&dhsmhs=2500&diff_mincreasedecrease=3&btcusd=127.38&dpowcon=5&btcusd_mincrease=1&pcost=0.15&calcweeks=32&dleadtime=0&action=calc

It isn't their fault that mining is currently unprofitable unless you throw down a big heap of investment capital up front. The units cost what they cost to produce, end of story. If you don't like it then don't buy any. There is no need for a flame thread because you can't comprehend this.

Why not?  There's multiple BFL hate threads mainly due to the fact RoI is vanishing.  People keep saying if BFL had shipped on time and made mining unprofitable that they would be criminal for doing so.  Yet now we got to just get over it? 

[erk]

$110+ per GH/s is bad value, even the BFL products from April were $50 per GH/s or less. The developers of the thumb would have known this in advance before they started the project.  The current market expects $20-25 per GH/s to break even.

What people forget is that Bitfury 55nm chip based miners have to get a positive ROI within 6mths or they will start making a loss at current BTC prices, the cost of electricity will be higher than the BTC they produce.

Punching the numbers into the http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/ calculator tells me at 2.1BTC the unit will make a loss of around $160, which is more than half it's purchase price. In order to make a profit BTC/USD would have to rise to over $300. In which case it would be better to just hold onto your 2.1BTC

The unit which costs you 2.1BTC will only return 1BTC before it can't cover the electricity price, therefore it should be priced at 1BTC or less.

[AndrewWilliams]

$110+ per GH/s is bad value, even the BFL products from April were $50 per GH/s or less. The developers of the thumb would have known this in advance before they started the project.  The current market expects $20-25 per GH/s to break even.

What people forget is that Bitfury 55nm chip based miners have to get a positive ROI within 6mths or they will start making a loss at current BTC prices, the cost of electricity will be higher than the BTC they produce.

Punching the numbers into the http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/ calculator tells me at 2.1BTC the unit will make a loss of around $160, which is more than half it's purchase price. In order to make a profit BTC/USD would have to rise to over $300. In which case it would be better to just hold onto your 2.1BTC

The unit which costs you 2.1BTC will only return 1BTC before it can't cover the electricity price, therefore it should be priced at 1BTC or less.

How many hundreds of articles do we need to see showing that the math just doesn't make sense.

Bitcoin mining, in it's current form is DEAD! BTC

[erk]

How many hundreds of articles do we need to see showing that the math just doesn't make sense.

Bitcoin mining, in it's current form is DEAD! BTC

It's certainly not dead, it's alive and kicking like never before, it's just most miners are clueless as to the economics of their rigs.