Why the Bitcoin community HAS to save the network from HashFast, CoinTerra, BFL.

[BTC-engineer]

I don't think it's so important which technology will be used etc.

The important point of OurASIC was, as far as I understood him, that an ASIC design should get into the hand of the bitcoin community.
So different groups can get this ASIC's for cost of manufacture and can build different, competing miner designs for the market.
Because of the extremely high engineering costs of a new ASIC design, this is not really true at the moment. Only big players have their own design and are selling ASIC's for very high prices.

Personally I like bitfury's ASIC design a lot. It's "only" made on 55nm technology, but very well design and can still compete with the current 28nm design announcements. If the community would have a design like that, I would already be happy. Let's say we would get the ASIC incl. packaging in volumes for about 1.5$, which is not unrealistic. The costs for the chips for a 400GH setup would be around $200. Without the need for complex and expensive cooling requirements like water-cooling etc.

Maybe it would make sense to check if the money for an own ASIC design, could be spend in a better way by just buying an existing ASIC design like the one from bitfury and open-source it.

    
 

 

[wunch]

I don't think it's so important which technology will be used etc.

The important point of OurASIC was, as far as I understood him, that an ASIC design should get into the hand of the bitcoin community.
So different groups can get this ASIC's for cost of manufacture and can build different, competing miner designs for the market.
Because of the extremely high engineering costs of a new ASIC design, this is not really true at the moment. Only big players have their own design and are selling ASIC's for very high prices.

Personally I like bitfury's ASIC design a lot. It's "only" made on 55nm technology, but very well design and can still compete with the current 28nm design announcements. If the community would have a design like that, I would already be happy. Let's say we would get the ASIC incl. packaging in volumes for about 1.5$, which is not unrealistic. The costs for the chips for a 400GH setup would be around $200. Without the need for complex and expensive cooling requirements like water-cooling etc.

Maybe it would make sense to check if the money for an own ASIC design, could be spend in a better way by just buying an existing ASIC design like the one from bitfury and open-source it.

    
 

 

Let's say you open source a 28nm Asic that does say 400ghz per chip and costs $50 and you sell them at cost. Someone, somewhere will make a better chip if it is commercially viable and then you are back to square one.

People are buying from the current ASIC manufacturers out of free will, there is no monopoly or evidence of a price fixing cartel. There are options for all wallets and ability's (ASICMINER USB to BFL Minirig and more on the horizon). If the high price of entry is such an issue these companies would quickly go bankrupt as they would not be able to sell products if people do not want to buy them.

This is exactly the same as people who bitch about Walmart coming to town and killing Main Street, when it is the people themselves shopping at Walmart that kills the independents. Don't like it don't buy, see how long a company survives with no customers.

[BTC-engineer]

I understand your point. In generally I don't have anything against a free market. In this specific case, the mining equipment is securing the bitcoin network, so I'm interested in a decentralized mining infrastructure. At the moment the owners of ASIC designs are able to bring up hashing power with cost of manufacturing, and all others have to pay a much higher price. This potentially leads to mining centralism, which is not a good thing.

To stay in your example with the 28nm/400GH chips for $50 in the hand of the bitcoin community. With such a available design it would be much harder than at the moment to make money by taking the risk of a new design. I think even the best ASIC experts will think twice before taking such a risk. In my opinion bitfury's 55nm design has already squeezed out a lot of the 55nm potential. I don't expect that someone is able to improve the numbers by let's say factor 2 with the same technology. On the other hand a step into a newer technology, like 28nm, is not automatically bringing so much more benefit. The problem is the up-going heat per area, which leads to complex, expensive cooling requirements. I'm interested to see how all of the 28nm announcements are solving this problem.
Anyhow, you can see already now that the cooling efforts are increasing (water cooling etc.) and the efficiency is not getting soo much better. About 0.5W/GH is also reachable with the bitfury design. I would be more convinced about the step to 28nm, if I would see <<0.2W/GH, which doesn't seem to be the case at the moment.  

[PuertoLibre]

"save the bitcoin network" isnt a valid argument anymore.

thats early btc adopters + asic manufactures propaganda.

Agreed. It is now the hoard of ASIC's.

[Anotheranonlol]

Our company will first develop an ASIC chip based on the 28nm technology. And later probably a 14nm on

will you, maybe make also a 12nm one too (time permitting of course) 

[DyslexicZombei]

OurAsic: I like what you're trying to do here with the openness you're trying to establish as open source software/hardware for 28nm ASIC chips.

I do have issues with the way you worded the release as it's combative and unnecessarily somewhat libelous by stereotyping every manufacturer you listed as evil and greedy when the jury is still out on 2 of the 3.   If I was editing your PR I'd caution that it's been proven that you attract more flies with honey than vinegar. Even if you *are* angry and bitter from being scammed: you shouldn't bring your at-home issues to work is what I was always told.

People are people. While business and politics seem to attract an abnormally large percentage of that "2-3%" that are mentally damaged or impaired such as sociopaths and psychopaths, most folks are decent people just trying to get by as their country's currency continues to inflate (some at ruinous levels), and are people that follow the laws and social mores of their culture, for the most part, eheh.

Perhaps if you had grown up in a hierarchical culture instead of an egalitarian one (relevant thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=281307.msg3154478#msg3154478 ) you may have found a way to still gain customers by calling attention to current product availability without resorting to negative (and possibly libelous) comments about any particular manufacturer.

BTW, as far as the nature of Greed: I don't want to say "greed is good" like Gordon Gekko but that same greed helped bring our ancestors out of trees and helped them to explore new vistas with all the concomitant unforeseen changes that would be unleashed as we went forward as a species. That same "greed" makes you get up in the morning and go to your job so you can continue to not live in a cardboard box.

Risk taking is good in a species. Extraordinary risk as a species overall, is probably ruinous, but risk taking is what helps makes us human and helps us to feel alive!

[DyslexicZombei]

Anyway you can put me in the hat as the first Group Buy Coordinator willing to throw my hat to be a treasurer in if you guys are serious and if this project goes anywhere.

I run a small miner co-op that currently has 18 members with 2 of them knowing the exact research lab and location that I work at. I also vet and coach new Group Buy Coordinators and Bitcoin Miner Hosts for free in the hopes of doing future business with them. I've also been vetted by John K. & he's seen my LinkedIn profile with multiple dozen Hawaii/US Aerospace/IT/R&D professional endorsements and a 162 perfect feedback rating on ebay as my wife's co-seller/buyer of IT hardware. I can also perform escrowed BTC transactions as a BTCrow Escrow Affiliate. I advocate for both buyers and sellers and, in any arbitration, will side with the one having the strongest evidence and least scammy behavior.

My collateral in any financial transaction I do here is: my job/freedom/ability to work on low TRL projects and get paid to do it. Anyone willing to handle someone else's BTC/cash/PP/ID/miner payouts on these forum needs to put up those same type of guarantees to do business around here IMO. And you should use escrow from a trusted provider whenever possible.

[gill83]

Start a topic for treasurer nominations already!

[DoomDumas]

Very nice project.
I think that the competitive nature of the capitalism system we live in will acheive the same within a nine montb time frame..  Asic being quite new, those kind of profit taking from manufacturer are normal and wont last..

Just my two satoshi

[DyslexicZombei]

Approx. 28 posts & well over a day since OP visited this post. Hmm, one would think that one would tend better to one's launch thread if put in a similar position.  

Anyway, in the small hope that you guys are serious & not another person or group of persons trying to do a "pump & dump" type scheme, here's my credentials as a possible treasurer, besides reading through my first 2 Group Buy threads:


Approx. value of GBEC / GBC ASIC pre-order sales or pre-sales of shares on this (the GB) forum by DZ in last 5 weeks: $10.1-11.1K
Approx. value of DZ ebay sales (including 4 HF Baby Jet shares listed on ebay/BTC Talk GB forum & purchased on ebay worth $620) since Aug.1 : $3.3K
Approx. value of ASIC related hardware or services currently listed items on ebay by DZ: $30.5K, selling as a trusted intermediary
Several new GBCs and Bitcoin Miner Hosts vetted for free, and several scams pointed out on two BTC related forums.
-Data current as of 9/17/2013

I rest my case, your honor.   I'd also tell you guys to chill the phuck out about possible libelous/defamatory statements about competitors. Fo' free.

[DyslexicZombei]

[Dabs]

Can I join?

[bronan]

Well lets see some of those well known names

I agree with btc-engineer on many points
Many of my posts and talks on irc for example bitminter i have mentioned that Asic chips are extreme cheap
Ofcourse it also depends on the initial bought numbers to produce, but in general they are pretty damn cheap.
In great numbers asic cost not even $5 to 10 to be made
Somehow nobody wanted the listen because of the mass only see the massive hash power they do.

That being said does not mean a miner as a complete package will be cheap, it greatly depends on how and with what quality such a device is build. I have not see the kncminer up close yet. But far as i can see on the pictures, they are building pretty good quality hardware.

Ofcourse that they ask this steep prices is because the market is there, so they take what people accept.
However they all are overpriced and all asic builders know that, and will continue till profitabilty on mining drops below the hashpower produced by the hardware.
If you can get this done before next year when the net will be flooded with massive datacenters full of hardware coming to get the most coins you can make the smaller miners happy till these massive machines run.
I think after this has happened mining is not for the masses anymore but for the biggest wallet people out there and investment companies.

Who else are able to invest many millions in hardware, not me i am just a super tiny miner not even getting 0.01 a day
In a like 6 months my newly bought hardware will be useless, and probably will not even make the money i put into it.

The big players and the current hardware sellers who plan to mine on their own wil be the winners, they got huge profits and can invest them back into even better hardware. Many do allready and as far as i know all are mining with pretty big numbers on the net.

[Dabs]

You know, there are literally hundreds and thousands of people contributing to distributed networks without making profit at all.

Folding proteins, looking for aliens, calculating large prime numbers, factoring RSA numbers, ... while bitcoin will have those who are in it just for the profits, there are those individuals who will mine just because they can, with whatever hardware they can use.

As for this OurAsic, I volunteer to be one of the treasurers. You can look me up and see if I can be trusted with thousands of coins in escrow. I've always wanted to escrow a 100,000 BTC transaction, maybe now I can.

[DyslexicZombei]

Hey Dabs! How are you buddy?

Well, 2 of their 10 requested treasurer candidates showed up with qualifications to spare, but there doesn't appear to be a there there.

We seem to have arrived on the Custom Hardware forum equivalent of the Mary Celeste: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/abandoned-200711.html


However, OurASIC is founded in Delaware allegedly. Hmm, isn't VMC founded in Delaware too? Coincidental?

[Kernel32]

Thank you OurASIC and all above for bringing community sourced ASICs back to foreground.

The most important thing is having a vision and transform it into real, viable plan. The discussion is already lit up. That's the best way to get there.

We might argue if a company is evil or not when trying to max profit at free market while staying in compliance with law. But that's not the important bit.

The most important question that enables us to forge viable plan: What is our advantage as a community over a "evil" company?

As many of you suggested above, market does apply to a community project same as commercial one. (People wouldn't buy community ASIC when there is better commercial deal.) So, let's see what community can do better than a commercial start-up.

Personally, I think our biggest advantage is being able to take the time to develop as good as it gets. A ASIC commercial company needs to make profit as soon as possible. Their chips could be twice (maybe more) as good, but the capital they use is not their own and expenses on keeping investment grow in time. They have to make some fiat profit fast.

The second big advantage (still my personal opinions) is community funding "as seen on Kickstarter". I would give my money to open community project where I know where my money goes, whats the state of it and the "never done before" goal we share. Where having it stuck as pre-order at some company is scary. My money could be on their way to Bahamas already.

And the third is the brains. A commercial company can offer money to developers, and then throw them away when they done their job. We can offer money too, but on top of that, well ... Companies come and go. ... We as a community are here to stay as long as there is math and some kind of money in the world.

What do you think is our advantage(s) if any?

[southerngentuk]

The key here is watts/hash/$$.

If we can get cheapish miners to the masses we win.

Corps have cost's

I can run 1 kw of miners without to much pain and itching on my electricity bill.

The big miners has huge costs. Dual supply's and Ups's do not come cheap. Genny back up, rack mounts, dual switching networking not to mention static switches.. These all come at huge cost.

Trust me, us little guys can stay solvent way longer than the big boys.

If we can level the hardware costs the big boys are toast, and as they shut down then we make the $$$'s 

[Dabs]

Hey Dabs! How are you buddy?

Well, 2 of their 10 requested treasurer candidates showed up with qualifications to spare, but there doesn't appear to be a there there.

We seem to have arrived on the Custom Hardware forum equivalent of the Mary Celeste: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/abandoned-200711.html

Hey buddy! Do you "vett for free"? hehehe. I got a Group Buy.

I dunno about being the "Mary Celeste", what I do know is that immediately after Zefir's first Group Buy of Avalon chips, I started the 2nd Group Buy of Avalon chips at almost the same time as (or even earlier than) SebastianJu's. Which turned out to be a failure. (Their's eventually also failed, but at least the first batches of chips arrived.)

As the "Captain" I did not abandon my "crew". I got abandoned. (All fully refunded.) But had the fortune to be included in another mining venture.

Trust me, us little guys can stay solvent way longer than the big boys.

I'm a lone worker. Even though I stand to make a profit, or even if I don't, it's going to be an experience and some fun being one of the little guys that could.

I do believe almost all ASIC devices are overpriced or will not ROI within a month. But coming from an offline, brick and mortar, traditional business perspective, something that ROIs under 2 or 3 years is very good.

At first I tried to offer chips. DIY. Didn't work. Now, hopefully, people take advantage of working finished products, at least for the novelty, for the fun, and for the benefit of the bitcoin network.

Will they make money? Probably not. But you have a blinking light!

Will I make money? I think the correct question is, would it be worth my time and effort? Probably not. It's going to be real work packaging and sending off 30, 300 or 3000 units, and it's possible I'm just going to cover my costs. I will probably be better off working my normal job or business, but I did say I'm doing this on my spare time after regular office hours.

Will it be fun? Probably. At least, that's what I'm counting on.

[DyslexicZombei]

Nah, Dabs, I wasn't talking about *us* abandoning customers.

I'm talking about the Original Posters - OurAsic - just up & vanishing, after trying to pull the strangest pump & dump scam or bait & switch scam I've ever seen.

The Mary Celeste was found abandoned, much like we found this thread: abandoned!  

[wunch]

Nah, Dabs, I wasn't talking about *us* abandoning customers.

I'm talking about the Original Posters - OurAsic - just up & vanishing, after tying to pull the strangest pump & dump scam or bait & switch scam I've ever seen.

The Mary Celeste was found abandoned, much like we found this thread: abandoned! 

I think reality smacked him hard with the hammer of truth. The world sucks get used to it