-- Seriously wealth destroying phenomenon happening at accelerated rate! --

[Vlad2Vlad]

Bitcoin over the past 60 days has gone up from $68 to $140.  

During this time alts didn't go much higher the way I originally theorized but instead collapsed with some going down by 90% and with only a few coins being spared the valuation killing.  

So what is going on?  Why isn't Bitcoin's fast appreciation taking up the alt coins?  And why are a select few bucking the trend and keeping lock step with the bitcoin and in a couple rare cases these alts beat out Bitcoin's 100% jump in value.

So by what mechanism are over 90% of alts getting killed and how and why are a few not following the same demise?  

I would point out ixCoin which went up some 30% during this Bitcoin double and I've read MEC and a couple other coins have also gone up.

We have a very limited timeframe to figure out what is causing this and figure out which coins to avoid and which coins stand a chance to go much higher if I'm correct and bitcoin get its ETF license soon and hits $1,000 in no time.  Cause if a $70 price hike nearly killed a bunch of alts, a $1,000 price tag would certainly wreak havoc on the value of over 90% of alts and would most likely kill most of them.

So lets discuss the how and why this is happening and why these few select coins are riding Bitcoin higher, as many people all over the world are about to lose their life savings if we can't figure out what's really going on.

Edit:


A thought just occurred to me.  If Bitcoin does go to $500 or $1,000, the way I expect, it is very possible that 2 things will happen:

A) Alts will get killed, moving LTC to the top of the profitability spot thus making it the multi-pool dump favorite which would cause LTC to actually collapse and not go up like most expect.

B) With LTC becoming a dead whipping boy that will be the end of Scrypt - long live SHA!


We all know scrypt added no value, it was just a way for some dude to get some attention but otherwise couldn't.  No genius coding there.  That's right, LTC is a CrapCoin. SHA is the best and with SHA you can add a merge mined patch and miners don't need to spend ridiculous money on GPU's and hefty energy bills, given ASICS are getting so cheap now.

Bitcoin $1,000 will kill over 90% of alt coins and it will extinguish Scrypt and by extension, Scrypt Jane, and John and whatever else crap anyone comes up with.  

 I knew I should have launched my CrapCoin in SHA256.






What say you!

[2dogs]

And why are a select few bucking the trend and keeping lock step with the bitcoin and in a couple rare cases these alts beat out Bitcoin's 100% jump in value.

Which ones are these?

[Vlad2Vlad]

And why are a select few bucking the trend and keeping lock step with the bitcoin and in a couple rare cases these alts beat out Bitcoin's 100% jump in value.

Which ones are these?

I've only seen MEC, ANC and ixCoin. 

Anybody else wanna add any other ones over the last 2 crucial months and if you know, why?  Thanks!

[rumlazy]

And why are a select few bucking the trend and keeping lock step with the bitcoin and in a couple rare cases these alts beat out Bitcoin's 100% jump in value.

Which ones are these?

I've only seen MEC, ANC and ixCoin.  

Anybody else wanna add any other ones over the last 2 crucial months and if you know, why?  Thanks!

CGB, ANC, MEC have all gone up in value since the btc rise.  CGB has gone up 3x.  ANC and MEC have a lot to them, they're easy to get behind and believe in.  CGB is easy to hold too since there will only be a million.  LTC has held it's USD value well.  PPC hasn't moved too much either.  Outside of CGB here, innovation seems to be the key.

[bholzer]

I have posted about the likely root causes.

First of all, multipools are erasing the identities of altcoins -- especially when they are being auto-traded for BTC. These auto-trades are driving down the market price because logic isn't taken into consideration -- they're just being dumped at what should be below market value. However, once these dumps occur, the resulting sale price becomes the new market value. Smart buyers are laying out lower offers knowing that the big dumps will drive the price down into their net...and sellers are competing with auto-sellers that don't care about the value or identity of the coins being sold.

Another issue is the flood of garbage coins that are getting listed on the major exchanges. Each week, more and more of these copy/paste coins are rolling out that are designed to be nothing more than a pump-and-dump scheme. For example: ASC, SAV, TGC, VLC, and ELP -- these were all released by the same deceitful dev under different names. Then, the same group of usernames proceed to campaign aggressively to get the currencies added to Cryptsy (using grammar that is so bad it's borderline-criminal, really.) People mine these coins (or buy them once they hit the exchanges) thinking it's a good investment...but as soon as the clowns at the top dump everything they walk away and everyone else that invested in the coins is left holding the bag. Even though there are only a few bad seeds in the mix, it's enough to erode trust across the entire market. The altcoin world is the wild west and con artists continue to execute the same scam over and over because there is no regulation or authority to verify anything. I mentioned it earlier today in the Cryptsy thread, but if they keep listing these coins and allowing these bums to profit off this crap the altcoin industry is doomed.

There are simply far too many coins out there that provide nothing new, have no services, and yet people are willing to invest in them only to get burned. People are pulling out of altcoins as fast as they were flooding in last month and it is eroding demand across the board.

I think one thing that would help is some kind of authority/verification service that investigates new currencies, communicates with the dev, evaluates the code/etc similar to the way certain universities are accredited. The risk here is that the operator needs to have enough integrity to not be bought off...but being bought off and exposed would also discredit the entire operation. Perhaps this service could be donation-supported? Devs abandoning coins as soon as they dump is a real problem -- there are a ton of zombie coins on Cryptsy right now polluting this market. Adding these currencies (or keeping them listed for trading) is the altcoin equivalent of the stock market still allowing you to trade Enron stock.

Without some basic integrity, we have a problem that will never be solved.

[bholzer]

And why are a select few bucking the trend and keeping lock step with the bitcoin and in a couple rare cases these alts beat out Bitcoin's 100% jump in value.

Which ones are these?

I've only seen MEC, ANC and ixCoin.  

Anybody else wanna add any other ones over the last 2 crucial months and if you know, why?  Thanks!

CGB, ANC, MEC have all gone up in value since the btc rise.  CGB has gone up 3x.  ANC and MEC have a lot to them, they're easy to get behind and believe in.  CGB is easy to hold too since there will only be a million.  LTC has held it's USD value well.  PPC hasn't moved too much either.  Outside of CGB here, innovation seems to be the key.

The currencies you mention represent the majority of quality currencies with a future -- there is a reason they continue to rise while everything else falls. These are what people should be mining...but unfortunately people think they're going to get rich getting in on the ground floor and mining the new crap/scam currencies that keep rolling out. Those people get burned...and their money is lost on con artists instead of growing the value of quality currencies.

[pyra-proxy]

Going "down" in trade value vs. bitcoin as it rises does not necessarily mean they have gone "down" in overall value, they could just be holding their overall value.  Ones that are going up are raising in value very well in that they are worth that many more bitcoins which are in turn worth more in fiat.  On the flipside, those alts which have stayed relatively stagnant vs. bitcoin are rising equally as fast as bitcoins because they can garner nearly equivalent amounts of higher priced bitcoins.

So the fiat/alt value equation is nowhere near as simple as up/down vs. bitcoin, it's up/down vs. bitcoin's up/down vs. fiat

Since bitcoin has risen ~30% over the time you're referencing the only alts to have lost true market value (vs. fiat which seems implied in the statement) are those which lost more than ~30% of their value vs. bitcoin .... with all that in mind I suspect you'd see most alts are not doing all that bad.  The merged mine alts with the notable exception of IxCoin are pretty much getting ravaged though it seems with at least 1 of them nearing a value of 0....

[mercSuey]

And why are a select few bucking the trend and keeping lock step with the bitcoin and in a couple rare cases these alts beat out Bitcoin's 100% jump in value.

Which ones are these?

I've only seen MEC, ANC and ixCoin.  

Anybody else wanna add any other ones over the last 2 crucial months and if you know, why?  Thanks!

CGB, ANC, MEC have all gone up in value since the btc rise.  CGB has gone up 3x.  ANC and MEC have a lot to them, they're easy to get behind and believe in.  CGB is easy to hold too since there will only be a million.  LTC has held it's USD value well.  PPC hasn't moved too much either.  Outside of CGB here, innovation seems to be the key.

The currencies you mention represent the majority of quality currencies with a future -- there is a reason they continue to rise while everything else falls. These are what people should be mining...but unfortunately people think they're going to get rich getting in on the ground floor and mining the new crap/scam currencies that keep rolling out. Those people get burned...and their money is lost on con artists instead of growing the value of quality currencies.

My sentiments exactly...

[pliznau]

I have posted about the likely root causes.

First of all, multipools are erasing the identities of altcoins -- especially when they are being auto-traded for BTC. These auto-trades are driving down the market price because logic isn't taken into consideration -- they're just being dumped at what should be below market value. However, once these dumps occur, the resulting sale price becomes the new market value. Smart buyers are laying out lower offers knowing that the big dumps will drive the price down into their net...and sellers are competing with auto-sellers that don't care about the value or identity of the coins being sold.

Another issue is the flood of garbage coins that are getting listed on the major exchanges. Each week, more and more of these copy/paste coins are rolling out that are designed to be nothing more than a pump-and-dump scheme. For example: ASC, SAV, TGC, VLC, and ELP -- these were all released by the same deceitful dev under different names. Then, the same group of usernames proceed to campaign aggressively to get the currencies added to Cryptsy (using grammar that is so bad it's borderline-criminal, really.) People mine these coins (or buy them once they hit the exchanges) thinking it's a good investment...but as soon as the clowns at the top dump everything they walk away and everyone else that invested in the coins is left holding the bag. Even though there are only a few bad seeds in the mix, it's enough to erode trust across the entire market. The altcoin world is the wild west and con artists continue to execute the same scam over and over because there is no regulation or authority to verify anything. I mentioned it earlier today in the Cryptsy thread, but if they keep listing these coins and allowing these bums to profit off this crap the altcoin industry is doomed.

There are simply far too many coins out there that provide nothing new, have no services, and yet people are willing to invest in them only to get burned. People are pulling out of altcoins as fast as they were flooding in last month and it is eroding demand across the board.

I think one thing that would help is some kind of authority/verification service that investigates new currencies, communicates with the dev, evaluates the code/etc similar to the way certain universities are accredited. The risk here is that the operator needs to have enough integrity to not be bought off...but being bought off and exposed would also discredit the entire operation. Perhaps this service could be donation-supported? Devs abandoning coins as soon as they dump is a real problem -- there are a ton of zombie coins on Cryptsy right now polluting this market. Adding these currencies (or keeping them listed for trading) is the altcoin equivalent of the stock market still allowing you to trade Enron stock.

Without some basic integrity, we have a problem that will never be solved.

damn! You nailed it!

[bholzer]

Going "down" in trade value vs. bitcoin as it rises does not necessarily mean they have gone "down" in overall value, they could just be holding their overall value.  

This is true...and important to remember when evaluating the charts. For example, in reality LTC is holding pretty steady in value despite a drop in comparison to BTC. However, most altcoins have dropped well over 30% in recent history despite this often-overlooked fact. Take a look at Diamond (0.007 to 0.0008 - about a 90% drop), Cosmoscoin (0.01 to 0.00027 - over a 97% drop), Bitgem (0.045 to 0.001 - nearly a 98% drop), and the list goes on. Then there are the obvious scamcoins, such as ELP which was pumped up to 0.0003 LTC and, in a matter of a week, dropped down to 1/3 the price at 0.0001 once the dev and company dumped their premined coins/etc and abandoned ELP. My guess is the value will continue to drop off the face of the earth. Imagine if you were heavily invested in Cosmoscoin (at one time, a pretty successful young currency) -- that's an insanely steep cliff it drove off.

We need to put together a plan -- I'd love to help draft some potential solutions.

[kriwest]

I personally feel that exchanges like cryptsy should take a much stricter line on which coins they accept. Every coin should go through rigorous scrutiny before getting in. As it is right now, there are way too many trash coins on there.

Limit the amount of coins, remove the auto-sell feature, and it should lead to people investing less in scam coins, and more in serious ones.

[rumlazy]

I think one thing that would help is some kind of authority/verification service that investigates new currencies, communicates with the dev, evaluates the code/etc similar to the way certain universities are accredited. The risk here is that the operator needs to have enough integrity to not be bought off...but being bought off and exposed would also discredit the entire operation. Perhaps this service could be donation-supported? Devs abandoning coins as soon as they dump is a real problem -- there are a ton of zombie coins on Cryptsy right now polluting this market. Adding these currencies (or keeping them listed for trading) is the altcoin equivalent of the stock market still allowing you to trade Enron stock.

Without some basic integrity, we have a problem that will never be solved.

+1000

Everything you say is exactly how I've felt over the last couple months, but you word it better then I ever could.  

I can't help but think about that poor guy in china that stuck 20 BTC into nanotokens only to spend the next month and a half wondering if he'd ever actually see his coins again. I mean he should have done his research, but cryptsy is still partially to blame here for giving total shitcoins a big stage.  So many coins on cryptsy have shit devs or no dev at all.  Or they just paid shakzula to make them a coin.  

Unfortunately Cryptsy doesn't care about anything but their trade revenue.  I mean, if it wasn't for the massive backlash they received, ORB would still be on it.  Autosell and the upcoming trigger system (allows you to auto sell/buy on conditions you set so your orders don't actually show up in the orderbook) are more examples.  

[kelsey]

Bitcoin over the past 60 days has gone up from $68 to $140.  

During this time alts didn't go much higher the way I originally theorized but instead collapsed with some going down by 90% and with only a few coins being spared the valuation killing.  

So what is going on?  Why isn't Bitcoin's fast appreciation taking up the alt coins?  

Its not unique to cryptos its a classic market phenomenon. For example in the stockmarket I trade the days when the top 200 have a serious rally the penny stock generally collapse.

Think about it, most people holding near worthless alts hold them to sooner or later transfer them to the more valuable bitcoin. The more valuable bitcoin is percieved the greater the temptation to convert.

However longterm; bitcoin is a yard stick so the higher it goes the greater the potential of any alt that survives.

[digitalindustry]

I have posted about the likely root causes.

First of all, multipools are erasing the identities of altcoins -- especially when they are being auto-traded for BTC. These auto-trades are driving down the market price because logic isn't taken into consideration -- they're just being dumped at what should be below market value. However, once these dumps occur, the resulting sale price becomes the new market value. Smart buyers are laying out lower offers knowing that the big dumps will drive the price down into their net...and sellers are competing with auto-sellers that don't care about the value or identity of the coins being sold.

Another issue is the flood of garbage coins that are getting listed on the major exchanges. Each week, more and more of these copy/paste coins are rolling out that are designed to be nothing more than a pump-and-dump scheme. For example: ASC, SAV, TGC, VLC, and ELP -- these were all released by the same deceitful dev under different names. Then, the same group of usernames proceed to campaign aggressively to get the currencies added to Cryptsy (using grammar that is so bad it's borderline-criminal, really.) People mine these coins (or buy them once they hit the exchanges) thinking it's a good investment...but as soon as the clowns at the top dump everything they walk away and everyone else that invested in the coins is left holding the bag. Even though there are only a few bad seeds in the mix, it's enough to erode trust across the entire market. The altcoin world is the wild west and con artists continue to execute the same scam over and over because there is no regulation or authority to verify anything. I mentioned it earlier today in the Cryptsy thread, but if they keep listing these coins and allowing these bums to profit off this crap the altcoin industry is doomed.

There are simply far too many coins out there that provide nothing new, have no services, and yet people are willing to invest in them only to get burned. People are pulling out of altcoins as fast as they were flooding in last month and it is eroding demand across the board.

I think one thing that would help is some kind of authority/verification service that investigates new currencies, communicates with the dev, evaluates the code/etc similar to the way certain universities are accredited. The risk here is that the operator needs to have enough integrity to not be bought off...but being bought off and exposed would also discredit the entire operation. Perhaps this service could be donation-supported? Devs abandoning coins as soon as they dump is a real problem -- there are a ton of zombie coins on Cryptsy right now polluting this market. Adding these currencies (or keeping them listed for trading) is the altcoin equivalent of the stock market still allowing you to trade Enron stock.

Without some basic integrity, we have a problem that will never be solved.

You have a basic understanding of the "problem" - but i had to laugh a little at the regulation aspect , it is the wild west indeed , the market is bigger than us but so this will even out , Cryptsy is a popular exchange but i think even they would admit its not a "major" exchange  , it can not exchange fiat , there is no real transfer vehicle except back to BTC, so the market is inside BTC.

everything is as it should be ..

Vlad if you made predictions in error , then you did just that.

I for one support anyone that wants to create any new "coin" unless its a virus or an obvious scam , such as say Ripple or the many other obvious scams.

as long as the basic principals are followed "proof" systems , - Open source - verification etc.

go crazy.

[Oldminer]

This is what I do:

1. Mine a few Scamcoins that are listed on cryptsy
2. List these coins on cryptsy
3. With 2nd account, buy your own scamcoins to drive up price
4. Once people and bots jump onboard, price is rising
5. Dump all coins, sell for btc
6. If there is still movement in the market, buy back cheap and start with 3. again, else, keep BTC
7. start with 1. again

I tried this but went broke before I could get to step 4 

[eratta]

I personally feel that exchanges like cryptsy should take a much stricter line on which coins they accept. Every coin should go through rigorous scrutiny before getting in. As it is right now, there are way too many trash coins on there.

Exactly right. The thinking at Cryptsy seems to be that more coins = more volume, which is silly. They should concentrate their efforts on attracting new users instead.

[bholzer]

You have a basic understanding of the "problem" - but i had to laugh a little at the regulation aspect , it is the wild west indeed , the market is bigger than us but so this will even out , Cryptsy is a popular exchange but i think even they would admit its not a "major" exchange  , it can not exchange fiat , there is no real transfer vehicle except back to BTC, so the market is inside BTC.

everything is as it should be ..

Vlad if you made predictions in error , then you did just that.

I for one support anyone that wants to create any new "coin" unless its a virus or an obvious scam , such as say Ripple or the many other obvious scams.

as long as the basic principals are followed "proof" systems , - Open source - verification etc.

go crazy.

I thought it was obvious, but by "major" exchange I mean the most active exchange for the vast majority of these altcoins. I'm not comparing Cryptsy to the NYSE -- all terminology that I used here was meant to be within the context of altcoins.

Perhaps getting snagged on this minor miscommunication regarding my definition of "major" derailed my point, but I would disagree that everything is as it should be. The limited trade volume at Cryptsy is actually a major reason value is tanking -- autotrades are often outpacing manual trades in quantity which results in downward trends. The market is simply not active enough to support the growing number of autotrades and if you graphed coin values over the past 30 days there would likely be a clear correlation between the quantity of autotrades and decrease in values (on average.) This is a problem because the values become question marks.

Another issue is that unworthy coins are being legitimized in the eyes of many by being listed on Cryptsy. These pump and dump coins are a major issue and they are resulting in a reduction of investor confidence market-wide. You shouldn't support every new coin because by doing so, you are contributing to the problem. When a dev is being purposely deceitful by creating a large quantity of currencies across a number of different usernames that they plan to abandon as soon as the coin gets listed and they can dump their coins, this is market manipulation and in any other market it would be a crime. In the real-world of currency trading, many of these actions I'm describing (pumping and dumping, churning, creating false value, ramping under false identities, etc) would be considered felony offenses and result in a prison sentence. The coins I listed in my initial post all fall under this umbrella. I'm not implying that these people should go to jail...but I think it's odd how many people don't have a problem with it. If this is how other markets were run, the entire world would be in a state of chaos and the value of all currencies would be extremely volatile.

I'm not suggesting strict rules and regulations...but by keeping these junk coins off of the "major" altcoin exchanges, these types of coins will start to go away. Why should anybody be purposely misled from the start and end up being the bag-holder if it's easily avoidable? Laugh at the regulation aspect? The only regulation we need at this point is to keep this crap off Cryptsy and 90% of this particular problem will go away. Why is it so horrible to have a board that investigates and reviews new coins before signing off on them? Nobody says you can't mine a coin without it being signed off on...but it would at least be a good reference point for serious investors. Cryptsy has the right to list whatever they want...but the point I'm making is that they're shooting themselves in the foot by listing coins that were designed to screw over investors from the start. You might support these coins...but I don't and I would hope the majority would share my view.

[Magic8Ball]

^Agree with you. Listing random coins designed for dumping by the creators affects everybody. There is only so many times investors will tolerate getting ripped. A few losses and they are out.

[digitalindustry]

I thought it was obvious, but by "major" exchange I mean the most active exchange for the vast majority of these altcoins. I'm not comparing Cryptsy to the NYSE -- all terminology that I used here was meant to be within the context of altcoins.

Perhaps getting snagged on this minor miscommunication regarding my definition of "major" derailed my point, but I would disagree that everything is as it should be. The limited trade volume at Cryptsy is actually a major reason value is tanking -- autotrades are often outpacing manual trades in quantity which results in downward trends. The market is simply not active enough to support the growing number of autotrades and if you graphed coin values over the past 30 days there would likely be a clear correlation between the quantity of autotrades and decrease in values (on average.) This is a problem because the values become question marks.

no problem - but it is still in its context , yes its the most popular exchange of all these many currencies , but by no means major if we are talking about a wider market, which i assume we all are.

with regards to the auto-trades  - this I guess is like an argument against HFT  - i'd say where specifically is the problem, the asset/trade  is either going up or its going down, there is no mystery here its just that simple - if there are many currencies on Cryptsy  then each one ends up at what the market values it.

if the majority of miners mine and sell , then the price will go down, ha ha , I mean? no ?

even if there were many sCrypt ASICs out there in the wild this wouldn't change that fact or even bring large inequity.

do you understand ? if there are no buyers the price goes down

where or how does that become a problem ?

Another issue is that unworthy coins are being legitimized in the eyes of many by being listed on Cryptsy. These pump and dump coins are a major issue and they are resulting in a reduction of investor confidence market-wide. You shouldn't support every new coin because by doing so, you are contributing to the problem. When a dev is being purposely deceitful by creating a large quantity of currencies across a number of different usernames that they plan to abandon as soon as the coin gets listed and they can dump their coins, this is market manipulation and in any other market it would be a crime. In the real-world of currency trading, many of these actions I'm describing (pumping and dumping, churning, creating false value, ramping under false identities, etc) would be considered felony offenses and result in a prison sentence. The coins I listed in my initial post all fall under this umbrella. I'm not implying that these people should go to jail...but I think it's odd how many people don't have a problem with it. If this is how other markets were run, the entire world would be in a state of chaos and the value of all currencies would be extremely volatile.

Again I'm sorry i fail to see the problem - no one is making you mine or buy these currencies, many are scams indeed , if the market is not educated then , it is what it is .

I suggested the introduction of the ability to hide currencies on Cryptsy  if it had not been brought in , Cryptsy would be unusable , that's the only potential issue that i saw , and it was promptly fixed.

but that was an organization of information issue.

where crimes occurred in the equity market i.e the "stock" market was due to retard investors and a critical lack of information , so that is to say crimes were/are easy to commit because int he past the sector had the "image of regulation" and investor due to ignorance used "brokers" -

Cryptocurrency i think you will find is a different world to that . 

I'm not suggesting strict rules and regulations...but by keeping these junk coins off of the "major" altcoin exchanges, these types of coins will start to go away. Why should anybody be purposely misled from the start and end up being the bag-holder if it's easily avoidable? Laugh at the regulation aspect? The only regulation we need at this point is to keep this crap off Cryptsy and 90% of this particular problem will go away. Why is it so horrible to have a board that investigates and reviews new coins before signing off on them? Nobody says you can't mine a coin without it being signed off on...but it would at least be a good reference point for serious investors. Cryptsy has the right to list whatever they want...but the point I'm making is that they're shooting themselves in the foot by listing coins that were designed to screw over investors from the start. You might support these coins...but I don't and I would hope the majority would share my view.

no no no , you miss the point , eventually as the market equalizes , if the unlimited amount of listings continue there will be many exchanges just like Cryptsy and then of course it won't be considered "Major" in even the limited view that we are speaking of now, so its hard to see the problem here?

no i don't support any of these currencies a very few, if i find a currency worth supporting i will support it .

how does one exactly "screw over an investor" , I mean serous is this the case where - the investor is kidnapped and  forced to invest in "Goldcoin" ? ha ha i'm just not seeing this "screw over" aspect ha ha.

I mean come on , by definition if you are an "investor" you invested , do you agree?

and if you "invested" in something  without due diligence or any information you are still an "investor" , just a "bad investor"

where does this become the Currency issue?

people "invested" in the Facebook IPO - and i had a good laugh about that .

[digitalindustry]

take for example Quark

I find it really interesting because there were people complaining because ha ha they invested in it or they mine it and then everyone was dumping it .

and if you look at the trend there looks like there could have been a Botnet mining and dumping .

well , if you had any faith in Quark as a viable currency , i have to ask you would you see this as a :

Net Negative ?

or

Net Positive ?

i mean i have to laugh how stupid are people, if you have faith in the design and mindless Botnets are mining and auto-dumping , then isn't that a gift to you  ?

I mean then if it isn't;..... doesn't that mean the you are just angry because you had no faith in the design but are angry because someone else beat you to the dump ?

that's just called sour grapes ha ha , not investing.

i think people have a lot to learn .