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Author Topic: New bread of 5850's in the wild :) (HARDWARE)  (Read 4959 times)
m3sSh3aD
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July 19, 2011, 11:41:45 PM
 #21

What mother board are you using to get 4 cards on?  Im looking at putting a 4 card rig together but the motherboard is as pricy as a decnt card!

Use PCI-Ex1 to PCI-Ex16 extenders/PCI to PCI-E x16 extenders, Cablesaurous (spelling) sells them or ebay Smiley Then you just use a cheap board/processor/ram. Everythings cheap cheap except PSU and video Wink
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July 20, 2011, 12:10:53 AM
 #22

Those components you have a red box around are not VRMs, they are capacitors, and the black ones might be resistors.  They could be connected to VRMs, however you will have to take off the heatsink of the card to confirm that.

Hey mate. Im certain they are, there all getting good temps when tested with IR thermometer. 79 to 92-83 along the line of the 230SA varient. IM CERTAIN of it Smiley But its my mates cardx in all honesty that one.But im poicking 2 up later so will have a closer inspection then Smiley Stable for 48 hours counting at 1015/300 STOCK Smiley gotta be close to a record stock Smiley

As Ryu mentioned, the components circled in red are SMD capacitors.
m3sSh3aD
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July 20, 2011, 12:36:19 AM
 #23

Right, im confusing myself here Smiley VRM's are big black things im guessing, If so, theres 4 on each. But again, the layout is slightly different. Bit of a DOH! moment there for me Tongue

Ive noticed they have 000SA and 230SA varients in there 4850 line also, so maybe it some kind of planned revision they do on all cards? Seems unusal to hold back power but it wouldnt suprise me in this day and age. I mean, release the best it can be after the next series is out is a bit....... gay Smiley

3 hours 53, Why as it ttok me 2 days of been logged in to get 4 hours, Infact, im logged in on 2 comps right now, I want double time Tongue
Ryu.Hayabusa
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July 20, 2011, 05:55:57 AM
 #24

The second revision of cards they usually cheap out on some components.  Like the 5870 Vapor-X they took out the software controllable voltage chip (forgot the name.. volterra?) in revision 2, in addition to slightly modifying the PCB (different soldermask) and component layout.

The small black components with 3 feet could be voltage regulators (for smaller chips, not the GPU), but considering they have a "Q" next to them on the silkscreen, they are probably transistors. 

If I was able to help you out, please consider donating.  Any amount is greatly appreciated! Smiley         
LTC LYxUfCXVHVkBv2S8H21NK6UnFnXmNaVqv6   XRP rHAYiZ3f7QGLa4qsVPjLsVEmwUQ9nSMq86
trentzb
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July 20, 2011, 06:16:00 AM
 #25

The second revision of cards they usually cheap out on some components.  Like the 5870 Vapor-X they took out the software controllable voltage chip (forgot the name.. volterra?) in revision 2, in addition to slightly modifying the PCB (different soldermask) and component layout.

The small black components with 3 feet could be voltage regulators (for smaller chips, not the GPU), but considering they have a "Q" next to them on the silkscreen, they are probably transistors. 

Volterra sounds right.

Would a "U" on silkscreen indicate an IC/VRM ?
Ryu.Hayabusa
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July 20, 2011, 06:55:29 AM
 #26

I believe "U" is for an IC, at least that's what I get on the 555 Timer and HEX Trigger ICs on my project in the design software.

If I was able to help you out, please consider donating.  Any amount is greatly appreciated! Smiley         
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CaptainDDL
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July 20, 2011, 07:32:22 AM
 #27

Hmm, might have to upgrade. I was looking at a 6870, might just get one of these.
catfish
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July 20, 2011, 08:21:12 AM
 #28

Erm, you defo got the wrong end of the stick haha. I wasnt insulting you personally, i was meerly putting my thoughts on the whole apple situation. Fair play, you open the mac OSx etc etc. Credit to you but APPLE AS A COMPANY and where there taking the apple brand seriously cant settle well with you either Smiley Im 28, And i got no time for crap either Smiley Sorry if you feel i offended you from a comment about my PERSONAL opinions about GENERAL apple users/hardware/software. You make it so its how the equipment IS MEANT TO BE, not with apples gayness jizz all over it. I dont like been locked down and told what i can and cant do with something I HAVE PURCHASED, i.e, I OWN! Smiley Face time a new feature? I swear video chat was on phones in the year 2000 or so haha. 2010 and apple have invented it!!! RIGHT! there claims and some of there patents they ARE ACTUALLY AQUIRED in the lovly US of A is pure stupidity and ridiculas. The cost of there hardware is ridiculas. I priced a top end mac for a laugh and compared it to an equivilant PC. It was £28,000 for the mac, £7,500 for the PC. 32GB ram from Apple, £4,000+, PC, £400. This is true through most of apples 'upgrades'. UNIX is a VERY capable piece of software and its a shame its disapearing into the abyss. Linux is a decent varient of it though and ALOT more user friendly im sure you'll agree Smiley


So please, accept my appology if you thought it was directed PERSONALLY at you Smiley OSX is OSX, not UNIX, i cant do what i can do on unix on OSX Smiley

Ill post more info on this in the hardware section, although i been logged in on here for over 2 days now
 it still only says 3 hours and 30 minutes. Ill wait till it goes 4 hours and get ouyt of this section Smiley
FWIW, without the odd style of communication, I agree that Apple's control freakery is annoying - hence my need to hack everything they produce so it can do what I want it to do. However, once unlocked, their kit is superb. Fuck what their mass market is - at least they keep buying the products so the company thrives and people like me can use the *full power* of their systems, which is completely hidden from most users' eyes.

Your price comparisons are off base but I haven't got time for religious wars. And BTW, OS X *is* UNIX and has been certified as such. Perhaps you've only used a Mac without the free SDK installed? Try it. It does everything - the only problem I'm having is compiling jwasm so I can get ufasoft's CPU miner to build, which is partly why I'm here...

The reason I was offended was because you directly accused me of being 'sheeple' and 'not tech savvy'. You couldn't be farther from the truth. I've stopped defending Apple because their business practices stink. Not as bad as Microsoft, but they're both huge global corporations so what do you expect? Jobs is a monomaniac too, a superb CEO but watch Apple shares tank when he dies... I don't care about Apple's toys - but OS X is a fucking superb system and certainly not for 'sheeple' or technical n00bs. Check out the number of proper hackers (the 1337, if you will) who use Apple laptops. If you've coded up a few of your own sploits then you'll be familiar with the scene.

To be fair, we're probably on the same page but you just caught me up in a mass generalisation...

Also, are you really 28? Your text style, including the 'haha' everywhere, sounds *just* like my 18 yr old stepbrother. He's a cool guy, but he's not 28...


Anyway enough of the childish jibes (from me as well, I admit). My three 5850 'Extreme' cards (I fucking HATE this 'extreme' bullshit - everything is 'extreme' these days, so where do I find the *real* 'extreme' stuff without mainlining pure coke?) are arriving some time today - will configure two of them and see if I can get your clockspeeds in normal ambient temps. The third is a project card that will be flashed with a Mac EFI 5870 ROM... to see whether it'll work in my Mac Pro (currently sporting a rather old 4870). Why? For the lulz, naturally. Wink

...so I give in to the rhythm, the click click clack
I'm too wasted to fight back...


BTC: 1A7HvdGGDie3P5nDpiskG8JxXT33Yu6Gct
m3sSh3aD
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July 20, 2011, 09:54:12 AM
 #29

Yes, my english is terrible. Never been good at english unfortunitly, top classes at school but never liked/enjoyed english. Net result, I rush words, mispell and dont use sentences and stuff propperly. Maths and logic etx and been hands on is my bag Smiley Far from stupid, Just getting it out of my head and into words/on paper Smiley I DO REALLY appologise for that. Proof reading would help Smiley

I like your view point on apple, its definitly from a different perspective than the usual apple fan Smiley I owned a 3GS though only 4 months, then went to android for the trvious stated reason. Although it sounds like you just made it your own Smiley

For the lulz hey......... Are you..... Tongue

End of the day people have different needs/wants and apple is providing one of them. They do just work i suppose and are harder to screw up. You ought see my mum on a computer...... :/ I still say someone should know how to build a computer/re-install everything before they can even BUY a computer. How much do apple charge when the system actually fails for whatever reason... Im sure it comes with a hefty premium Smiley Insurance for iphone is £15 a month here. Everything else is £7. You have to pay for your handset, That asnt been around for about 4-5 years at least before the 3G. I cant help but see dumbed down products for dumbed down people. I love tech, But the companies are slowing it all down imo, even going backwards with tablets etc. There rubbish and cannot replace PC's in work places. For one, Touchscreen typing IS THE WORST OF ALL TYPING! Bar none! Locking you down into thunderbolt (INTELS PROPRIETRY CONNECTION). List goes on for apple Smiley THey look nice though..... I brought a Lian-Li V1100 case once cause it reminded me of the sleek apple power PC's back then Smiley

I dont know. I think i just find all tech a bit boring and slow these days. But this bitcoin/mining/hardware fiddling as revitalised me Smiley Aint had this much fun since the 90's Smiley
makko
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July 20, 2011, 10:13:56 AM
 #30

I just got my card and its saphire!

Fingers crossed its this new revision.. in work will check at lunch!!  Smiley

Too lazy for a fancy sig.. Tongue
Wuked
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July 20, 2011, 11:31:43 AM
 #31

Have you got a guide for volt modding the original cards?

m3sSh3aD
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July 20, 2011, 06:32:13 PM
 #32

Have you got a guide for volt modding the original cards?

sapphire trixx, just download it
m3sSh3aD
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July 23, 2011, 04:17:47 AM
 #33

well, after getting another 2 on replacement for the old ones they get to 970/980 respectivly. that other.one reaches 1020, all on stock. looks like that first one is whit.of a gem. just waiting for sapphire update trixx now Smiley
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July 23, 2011, 09:49:00 PM
 #34

Have you got a guide for volt modding the original cards?

sapphire trixx, just download it

I have 3x of these cards, but Trixx won't let me even change the voltage on the only 1 that it sees.

catfish
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July 24, 2011, 07:32:32 PM
 #35

OK then everyone, I promised I'd analyse this but I had a slight accident with my Dremel when modding my existing logic board so I could get two of these Sapphire 5850 Extreme cards installed... only one PCIe x16 slot, two PCIe x1 slots though and the second one would, if modified, allow two cards installed next to each other in their 'expected-for-gamers' crossfire (?) config.

However, I rescued the bent pins, hee hee Smiley Both cards now in. However, before I installed the cards, I noticed some bizarre differences. So - in advance, apologies for the number of pictures here for you poor sods with tiny pipes...


I bought *3* supposedly identical Sapphire 5850 Extreme cards from Overclockers.co.uk earlier this week for their 'special offer' price of £120 each. Seemed good to me, so I added the card to my shopping cart, modified the 'count' to '3', updated and paid. This seemingly irrelevant detail is purely to show that I ordered *three identical cards* - I didn't choose different models or pay different amounts for each card, etc. They were apparently all the same.

I was initially interested in how the cards would perform compared to my 'old' Sapphire 5850 - not an 'Extreme' version, but instead £175 from PC World in a retail box, a MUCH longer card with 5 fat copper heatpipes (it's the same heatpipe / cooler arrangement as on their 5870, basically, and I have had it successfully overclocked to 999/275 and running 401 Mhash/sec for weeks). It turned out that the really interesting thing was that the 'Extreme' cards were actually different themselves!!!

Anyway - onto the pictures (note that I'm only comparing two cards because the third is not installed anywhere yet):

0. Both retail boxes appear identical...


1. Views from the top of the PCB, showing the cooler shroud and fan, along with some indication of the PCB colour. Note that both appear very similar, but with Card A's PCB looking a bit more 'blue' on the top side:
Card A:

Card B:


2. Views of the PCIe connector itself, showing a Sapphire sticker and the Hologram. Note that whilst the P/N (part number?) is the same, the number beneath it is not:
Card A:

Card B:


3. Views of the top of the back of the PCB, showing the all-important spec sticker. Note that whilst the number difference corresponds with the two codes in this thread, the PCB layout is also clearly different between the two cards. This isn't just a product-code change - the board is an entirely different design:
Card A:

Card B:


4. Final comparison - the most obvious difference between the two card designs - the positioning of the two PCIe Power Connectors. On Card A, the connectors are horizontally mounted out of the back of the card, just like on my 'old' full-size 5-heatpipe Sapphire OverclockMonster (™) Wink On Card B, the connectors are vertically mounted:
Card A:

Card B:


5. A quick picture of both cards side by side, showing the full rear of the circuit boards. The electronics 1337 amongst you can tell me where the major differences lie...



Finally... for the OP's talk of surface mounted components... I compared the number of these particular components to my 'old' Sapphire 5850 with the big heatpipe arrangement. The 'old' card has LOADS of these - many more than the new 'Extreme' models:


I used my laser infrared thermometer (normally used to check temps of tyres and engine components when doing trackdays in my car) and these particular components (capacitors?) get damn hot - 86 deg C on my 'old' Sapphire card, which runs a big overclock. Having many fewer on the new 'Extreme' cards doesn't bode well does it?


And whilst I haven't fully tested yet, the Extreme cards simply CANNOT overclock to the same rates as my 'old' Sapphire 5850 card. Not at all. The best I can manage is 900 on the 'middle' card (that gets very hot due to airflow) and 950 on the 'top' card (which gets more free air). Still not too shabby.

Again, apologies for all the pictures but this may be helpful....

...so I give in to the rhythm, the click click clack
I'm too wasted to fight back...


BTC: 1A7HvdGGDie3P5nDpiskG8JxXT33Yu6Gct
m3sSh3aD
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July 25, 2011, 12:15:23 PM
 #36

hey catfish. 000sa cards ( power connectors at back) over volt. the new 230sa ones (power on top of card) don't. your airflow is bad by sounds of it. I've just converted a table and have fans blowing air into the room and out the window. also, fans blowing over the cards and sucking also. on phone so ball ache upload pictures right now with forum rules Sad I have 11 up, 2x xfx 5870 (not volt moddable) doing 900/300 @ 410mhash with 1x sapphire 5850 new revision 1020/300 (can't volt mod yet!) which does 420 mhash. that's hanging out of a case with the 5870s in it Smiley another 4x old rev 5850's all doing 1000 with no more than 1.2 volt. that's run off 1 xfx 750 watt and a standard 650. I blew a standard 850 here, keep away from cheap psu's Smiley there screwed to the bottom of the top table with the mobo and psus at the sides. ontop of the top table is a unfinished setup powered by a 850 standard psu which is limiting the 2 new 5850s to 925/300 cause its crappy Sad I got an akasa 1200 watt for 140 other day but its non standard cable (non kettle) and its not in the box. need pick it up. there not volt moddable until next trixx update. can't wait see what they can do. will have 4 eventually with that 1200 up and running Smiley purple helmets on ars bitcoin Smiley got the pc system running to bitcoins lc so 1.250 ghash there and its about 2.4 ghash to ars give or take. 3.2 complete. well, 6.4 when this projects finished Smiley considering the amount I put in and knowledge gained, I'm on a winner. electric bills are nothing. my bills have been multiple 100s a month, this isn't anywhere near the likes of them  days :p

peace

p.s ill get a pic of the rigs up. my knowledge for free and I been doing this since I was 12. I know dos days so ill let you do the math Smiley and the scorn I got when I just wanted to post in the right section :p

I just wonder, 'what is the plan'? time will tell Smiley

EDIT: Pics, thought i may as well Smiley (:INK BELOW PIC POST IF DOESNT FIT)

Here is the origional concept. 4 cards


http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/6/imag0003cg.jpg/

Thats 4 cards and 2 psus, crappy 650 on left 2 and hdd, other 750 xfx for system and other 2x 5850s.

This is with the crappy limiting 850 watt ont top. I was going make a stand on top but i got a new table instead. Way better layout. Herer it is with 2 cards 'sitting' ontop Tongue


http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/812/imag0010t.jpg/

Here's the system with 3 cards in, not actually mine now, house mates. It was the test bed pc Smiley


http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/694/imag0009pj.jpg/

If the 2x XFX 5870s were volt moddable they would be aweome. I recon 500 wouldnt be out of nthe question. The 5850 hanging out is set at 1020/300 at stock voltage. Amazing chip Smiley Its actually 418 mhash, cant quiete get 1025. Ain't tried inbetween..... all on a 900 watt be quiet picked up for a ton.

And air flow, Pretty obvious.....


http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/339/imag0011cl.jpg/

So, DONT BUY CHEAP PSU's is a lesson learned, £60 though, mahh. nvm. Made that in a few days Tongue

new 7 series touted for september, lower power usuage but dont think processor count will go up. They went down on the 6 series so i expect the same as them. Gaming doesnt need more stream processors like mining does. Or maybe ati masy see where there profits are coming from these last few months..... Still. This is hurting nvidia even more. Bad design choice. Unlucky. Intel fooled you with that larbee Tongue

Isnt tech getting fun again Smiley

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July 25, 2011, 12:58:50 PM
 #37

HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!

Woke up this morning to find my dual-card machine dead.

Guess what?

Blown PSU!!! It was a 750W unit... I'd have thought it'd be meaty enough for two cards... I've only got a 500W PSU powering my 'old' Sapphire 5850 which *is* overclocked to 999 and has been running 24/7 for weeks now...

What do you recommend for a reliable, powerful PSU then? I'm still waiting on Cablesaurus to send me my extender cables, so until then, I can't build a bespoke frame that gives ample space between GPU cards (I most certainly have plans to do so...). But until then - I need the extra Mh/s of those two cards working for me!

Also it's bloody hard to find logic boards or GPUs in retail stores. I don't want to wait random amounts of time for delivery, I want to jump in my car and pick up some kit NOW because I've had a blown component...

Nice setup BTW - it really does seem that the way to go is bespoke boxes with special multi-GPU racks to facilitate good airflow. I've got shite airflow in my case, I will admit - the reason one card is 60 deg C and the other 90 deg C has a lot to do with that Sad but without extenders / risers, I've got no other way of attaching the damn GPUs.

I'd have a go at soldering up my own extenders (at a real risk to the GPUs) but I can't even find the connectors for sale retail (yeah, I can buy mail order, but I've already done that with Cablesaurus and I'm still waiting)...


Thanks for the feedback chap, very useful. Definitely need to work out a way to use multiple PSUs though - anyone know? I tried using the original 300W PSU that came with the PC just to see whether all the components had fried or whether it was just a blown PSU (appears to be a blown PSU) - and then tried another spare 300W PSU lying around just connected to the second GPU - it wouldn't fire up. Is there some way of 'bridging' PSUs?

cheeeers
...catfish

...so I give in to the rhythm, the click click clack
I'm too wasted to fight back...


BTC: 1A7HvdGGDie3P5nDpiskG8JxXT33Yu6Gct
catfish
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July 25, 2011, 01:28:30 PM
 #38

Mods... not sure if this is correct etiquette or not, please let me know if not.

This thread is, IMO, adding some useful information. I have a business to run and don't have time to précis the entire thread in order to add it to the Wiki under hardware (where it should go).

It's clear that Sapphire are selling different design 5850 cards in the same box at the same price, and if you buy mail order then it's a crap-shoot as to which revision card you get.

As Me5sh34d (? messhead?) said - he's come across certain revisions before and some will over-volt and some won't. I'm not planning to over-volt any of my cards due to wattage concerns (and a plethora of burnt-out PSUs in my office right now... heh) but plenty of people here *will*.

I don't think this thread is particularly suitable for the Newbies section - newbies are not likely to be filtering through GPU part numbers in order to decide which card to over-volt using tools which may not even be applicable to their operating system.

I'd respectfully request that the thread is moved over to the Hardware section as originally expected by messhead. If not, I will have to start another thread in Hardware with the same information in order to get more feedback from the established expert members. I've blown two PSUs already, this is costing me money, and if I'd been armed with the information that one variant of card ran a different voltage to another (even in the same box, from the same order of three identical cards) then I'd have been fore-warned. As it is, I was only surprised that one card ran 10 Mhash/s more than the other at the *same* clock settings. This could have been due to one card being in the x16 slot and the other in a butchered x1 slot...

Anyway - the bottom line is that I started my Bitcoin mining experiment with a Sapphire 5850 - the long card, not 'Extreme' and with the 5 fat copper heatpipes. This easily overclocked to 999/275 (with more to go if I had a cooler room) and hasn't crashed since I built it - it's been running 24/7 for weeks. Now I've got these 'Extreme' cards - they all seem to have different PCBs, and whilst I can live with blowing a PSU, I don't want to blow up a £120 GPU if I can help it. The limits aren't clear - so far I've had great help from messhead, but this information could do with a wider audience of experienced miners.

...so I give in to the rhythm, the click click clack
I'm too wasted to fight back...


BTC: 1A7HvdGGDie3P5nDpiskG8JxXT33Yu6Gct
m3sSh3aD
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July 25, 2011, 01:52:30 PM
 #39

ahmen Smiley

what 750, to be honest there down at 970 them on the xfx 750. I'm not sure if its vrms or psu. mm. need that 1200 up and running. I think you got be more careful around the 600 to 850 watt, its a jungle. anything above is going cost but its going do what it says on the tin efficently. my 900 is 980 peak, 1200 is 1255 peak. sea sonic, be quieter. just read reviews Smiley
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July 25, 2011, 02:10:57 PM
 #40

ahmen Smiley

what 750, to be honest there down at 970 them on the xfx 750. I'm not sure if its vrms or psu. mm. need that 1200 up and running. I think you got be more careful around the 600 to 850 watt, its a jungle. anything above is going cost but its going do what it says on the tin efficently. my 900 is 980 peak, 1200 is 1255 peak. sea sonic, be quieter. just read reviews Smiley
Hmmm... the PSU was a 750W job that happened to be on offer at Maplin - £65 or something like that. Recognisable brand-name PSUs with big power outputs are over £100 and that seems a hell of a lot to me.

Then again, I *do* have 4 5850s and 1 5770 to use, and if I can get ALL of them into a custom frame using ONE high-quality big-power PSU, then perhaps it's worth it.

I just REALLY wish I could use the PSU from my old Quad G5 Powermac - that needed a special wall plug because it was 1500W or something mental, due to the insane power draw from the water-cooled G5s. I'd install PPC Linux on the machine in a shot, as it has lots of PCIe x16 slots - sadly ATI's stream SDK proprietary code is Intel x86 only. So I can't run the OpenCL miner under Linux on the old Mac box Sad

...so I give in to the rhythm, the click click clack
I'm too wasted to fight back...


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