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Author Topic: Pirate v2.0: Unravelling the Bitshares Ponzi  (Read 12655 times)
digitalindustry
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September 22, 2013, 03:51:10 PM
 #81

Its a fool born every minute. Back when I was in high school there was a person born every minute.

You can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time.

So if an idiot is someone you can fool some of the time, then by now they might be being born faster than one per minute by now.

But if an idiot is someone you can fool all of the time, well, the who you can fool quote isn't a lot of help in determining their birth rate.

-MarkM-


fool me once shame on me...ah...

fool me ..ah fool ... ah me... fool them.....ah ........{pause}

THE POINT IS I CAN'T BE FOOLED TWICE !

** you know i tried to make a "BUSH for president" Facebook the year Obama got elected, it wasn't very popular - i really don't know why i wasn't actually joking , in fact I don't even live in the USA and I voted for Bush this year , I just wrote him in , in my country .

I still claim he was the best President.   

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September 22, 2013, 03:56:49 PM
 #82


(A completely risk free system to turn 1 BTC into ownership of every single asset in the world. They will have to reintroduce slavery, so you will have new stuff to purchase.)

Dam , sounds familiar .

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September 22, 2013, 03:56:52 PM
 #83

I purchase 1 bitBTC. I earn bitshares as my share of txn fees. I reinvest these txn fees to buy more bitBTC. Eventually, I have 100 million bitBTC. I earned all these from my share of txn fees you see.

I take these to a market trading bitBTC / BTC pairs. Something about longs and shorts, a prediction market, and other such nonsense ensures that I can always trade 1 bitBTC for about 1 BTC on average.

So now I make my trades and I have my 100 million BTC.

Okay, where do I sign up?

Ok, this is a fair point of confusion that many people will have... so let me address it.

There are 100 million BitBTC  backed by  150 to 250 million BTC worth of BitShares which means for this situation to occur, BitShares must have a market cap at least 10 x that of Bitcoin or these positions could never have been created.    

Each of these BitBTC would be paying a non-0 amount of BitShares as dividends and therefore the market value of a BitBTC will be greater than a BTC so if you enter the market attempting to sell 100 million BitBTC for actual BTC you would cause the BitBTC/BTC price to sag and create HUGE arbitrage opportunities for people to purchase your BitBTC 'cheap' with BTC and then sell them for BitShares.        

So now that I have explained the market dynamics,  admitted that an idiot could attempt to manipulate the price of BitBTC/BTC by selling at a loss, and shown that 100 million BitBTC cannot be created from thin air, but requires 200 million BTC worth of value to be backing it do you see the difference?



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September 22, 2013, 04:02:59 PM
 #84

Quote
I purchase 1 bitBTC. I earn bitshares as my share of txn fees. I reinvest these txn fees to buy more bitBTC.

Non-retard part of argument

Quote
Eventually, I have 100 million bitBTC. I earned all these from my share of txn fees you see.

Let's think very carefully about this one billy. What happens to the supply of BitShares if all of them are in escrow as a result of people shorting BitBTC? The value of your BitBTC falls in relation to the BitShares meaning your 100 million BitBTC isn't worth very much compared to the BitShares you bought them with.

Quote
I take these to a market trading bitBTC / BTC pairs. Something about longs and shorts, a prediction market, and other such nonsense

Non-sense like functioning free markets. Yes they totally don't work at all....

Quote
I can always trade 1 bitBTC for about 1 BTC on average

It's an unstable equilibrium so no. The dividend rate will have an effect on the price which has yet to be determined and one of the reasons why we are running a TestNet. I disagree that the price will monotonically decrease to zero as you have claimed and you really don't seem to understand that markets have two sides. But this is why we test things before we release them.

You have also completely discounted that we are building the infrastructure for any trading system and Keyhotee will support them as a plugin if desired. We are building a platform and if we got something wrong then it's robust enough to support something else. This is one of the reasons why I have lost all respect for you. You are attacking our integrity while we freely give away a gateway for any type of prediction market ironically including your own.


Quote
So now I make my trades and I have my 100 million BTC.

Ugh

Okay, where do I sign up?[/quote]
Quote
Yeah yeah its all above board sure thing, yes indeed anyone that questions this rock solid system is an idiot indeed ...

We spent countless hours nicely answering his questions with no luck while he both attacked our character and business model. He claims we are a ponzi scheme. He even made a powerpoint and posted it online. I'm sorry if you can't see how these actions differ from just a normal troll. We are building free software and giving it to everybody to use for their own projects and we are being attacked. BFL is a scam. They took people's money and never delivered and then asked for more. Where did we take yours and how do we profit from BitShares? Meanwhile Cunicula is asking for 300k of YOUR MONEY to fund his idea.

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September 22, 2013, 04:05:52 PM
 #85

I purchase 1 bitBTC. I earn bitshares as my share of txn fees. I reinvest these txn fees to buy more bitBTC. Eventually, I have 100 million bitBTC. I earned all these from my share of txn fees you see.

I take these to a market trading bitBTC / BTC pairs. Something about longs and shorts, a prediction market, and other such nonsense ensures that I can always trade 1 bitBTC for about 1 BTC on average.

So now I make my trades and I have my 100 million BTC.

Okay, where do I sign up?

Ok, this is a fair point of confusion that many people will have... so let me address it.

There are 100 million BitBTC  backed by  150 to 250 million BTC worth of BitShares which means for this situation to occur, BitShares must have a market cap at least 10 x that of Bitcoin or these positions could never have been created.    

Each of these BitBTC would be paying a non-0 amount of BitShares as dividends and therefore the market value of a BitBTC will be greater than a BTC so if you enter the market attempting to sell 100 million BitBTC for actual BTC you would cause the BitBTC/BTC price to sag and create HUGE arbitrage opportunities for people to purchase your BitBTC 'cheap' with BTC and then sell them for BitShares.        

So now that I have explained the market dynamics,  admitted that an idiot could attempt to manipulate the price of BitBTC/BTC by selling at a loss, and shown that 100 million BitBTC cannot be created from thin air, but requires 200 million BTC worth of value to be backing it do you see the difference?




Good luck, seriously good luck,  just one thing...

Gold Silver , cumbersome not really fungible compared to , oh say a digital decentralized currency - ., then add the Generational investor differential, baby boomers early X in metals - post x in Crypto..

just a point.

financializing a digital decentralized currency is going to be a very hard "lift time" that is to say , even if you get CNN on board (even if they are still relevant in say 5 years) , your time to get investors in on this I think is going to be,  long an hard.

but I can see what you are trying to do .

it reminds me of the aforementioned Facbook IPO  .

- Twitter @Kolin_Quark
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September 22, 2013, 04:10:27 PM
 #86

I purchase 1 bitBTC. I earn bitshares as my share of txn fees. I reinvest these txn fees to buy more bitBTC. Eventually, I have 100 million bitBTC. I earned all these from my share of txn fees you see.

I take these to a market trading bitBTC / BTC pairs. Something about longs and shorts, a prediction market, and other such nonsense ensures that I can always trade 1 bitBTC for about 1 BTC on average.

So now I make my trades and I have my 100 million BTC.

Okay, where do I sign up?

Ok, this is a fair point of confusion that many people will have... so let me address it.

There are 100 million BitBTC  backed by  150 to 250 million BTC worth of BitShares which means for this situation to occur, BitShares must have a market cap at least 10 x that of Bitcoin or these positions could never have been created.    

Each of these BitBTC would be paying a non-0 amount of BitShares as dividends and therefore the market value of a BitBTC will be greater than a BTC so if you enter the market attempting to sell 100 million BitBTC for actual BTC you would cause the BitBTC/BTC price to sag and create HUGE arbitrage opportunities for people to purchase your BitBTC 'cheap' with BTC and then sell them for BitShares.        

So now that I have explained the market dynamics,  admitted that an idiot could attempt to manipulate the price of BitBTC/BTC by selling at a loss, and shown that 100 million BitBTC cannot be created from thin air, but requires 200 million BTC worth of value to be backing it do you see the difference?




Oh, I wouldn't worry about the market cap. After all you have a created a risk free system allowing anyone and everyone who invests (or their descendents) to achieve world domination. You will have plenty of bitshares to create 100 million bitBTC with.

What I'm more concerned about is how I can own the whole world and my neighbour can own the whole world at the same time? This matter might cause some confusion. Do you have some theoretical physics story to go along with the prediction market? That might help to smooth things over.

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September 22, 2013, 04:12:17 PM
 #87

"We spent countless hours nicely answering his questions with no luck while he both attacked our character and business model. He claims we are a ponzi scheme. He even made a powerpoint and posted it online. I'm sorry if you can't see how these actions differ from just a normal troll. We are building free software and giving it to everybody to use for their own projects and we are being attacked. BFL is a scam. They took people's money and never delivered and then asked for more. Where did we take yours and how do we profit from BitShares? Meanwhile Cunicula is asking for 300k of YOUR MONEY to fund his idea"

friend , I don't even know what Cunicula's idea is...

Bitcoin is far from flawless or solid in its self , trying to build a financial mechanism on top of it is,  i feel ....  "brave"  .

I don't see the "financialization" of a blockchain innovation, why not just issue a new Cryptocurrency   ?

let its stand on its own two feet .. its hard one isn't it ?

so either you are playing a game that isn't yours or you are playing your own game.

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September 22, 2013, 04:17:20 PM
 #88

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I can always trade 1 bitBTC for about 1 BTC on average

It's an unstable equilibrium so no. The dividend rate will have an effect on the price which has yet to be determined and one of the reasons why we are running a TestNet. I disagree that the price will monotonically decrease to zero as you have claimed and you really don't seem to understand that markets have two sides. But this is why we test things before we release them.

This is just the type of evidence the SEC needs to put you away. Can't wait to see the internal e-mails. Now you tell me that you are still testing, you claim to not be sure, you think maybe it is an "unstable equilibrium."

But when doing reports for the press for the eyes of naive investors you say this:
http://www.coindesk.com/bitshares-p2p-trading-platform-to-offer-dividends-on-bitcoins/
Quote
“If you own BitBTC you can earn dividends on your bitcoins,” said Larimer. “If you have a thousand bitcoins and you convert them to BitBTC, and then you hold it for six months, then you convert the BitBTC plus the dividends you received back to bitcoins, you’ll end up with more bitcoins than you started with.”

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One BitUSD will always be worth around one dollar, say the founders, just as one BitBTC will be worth around one bitcoin.

You have been a very naughty boy.
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September 22, 2013, 04:20:44 PM
 #89

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friend , I don't even know what Cunicula's idea is...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=297147.0


Quote
Bitcoin is far from flawless or solid in its self , trying to build a financial mechanism on top of it is,  i feel ....  "brave"  .

BitShares shares no common code with Bitcoin we are building our own blockchain, PoW and desktop client from the ground up

Quote
I don't see the "financialization" of a blockchain innovation, why not just issue a new Cryptocurrency   ?

BitShares will be its own cryptocurrency specifically designed for the kinds of trading we are advocating. Bitcoin does not have a method to support shorts and issuing options in a trustless way. We do and we have to design an entirely new currency to do it well.

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September 22, 2013, 04:26:10 PM
 #90

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friend , I don't even know what Cunicula's idea is...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=297147.0


In case you haven't cottoned on to the fact that these guys are quite ready to lie when it suits them,
read the thread and find my solicitation of $300k. Or maybe you assholes could help out and post it here?

The fabrications are just an attempt to draw the spotlight away from their own criminal conspiracy.
Don't worry, said spotlight is not going anywhere.
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September 22, 2013, 04:27:34 PM
 #91

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What I'm more concerned about is how I can own the whole world and my neighbour can own the whole world at the same time? This matter might cause some confusion. Do you have some theoretical physics story to go along with the prediction market? That might help to smooth things over.

Neither one of you own the whole world... because 2x the whole world would have to be held as collateral to back a long position in the whole world... unfortunately, BitShares are part of the world and thus such a concept is entirely impossible.

I can say this... the value of BitShares must always be 1.5 to 2.5 x the value of all BitAssets in existence.  This is easy to prove because the creation of a BitAsset requires equal value from two parties and thus 2x the value of that asset held as collateral.

Given this constraint, no value is ever created or destroyed in our system aside from the increasing value of BitShares themselves due to their utility.   This is like Bitcoin rising in value relative to other things.  


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September 22, 2013, 04:28:24 PM
 #92

Hey how do I report this to the SEC anyway? Anyone with experience in this area care to point me in the right direction?
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September 22, 2013, 04:31:18 PM
 #93

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What I'm more concerned about is how I can own the whole world and my neighbour can own the whole world at the same time? This matter might cause some confusion. Do you have some theoretical physics story to go along with the prediction market? That might help to smooth things over.

Neither one of you own the whole world... because 2x the whole world would have to be held as collateral to back a long position in the whole world... unfortunately, BitShares are part of the world and thus such a concept is entirely impossible.

I can say this... the value of BitShares must always be 1.5 to 2.5 x the value of all BitAssets in existence.  This is easy to prove because the creation of a BitAsset requires equal value from two parties and thus 2x the value of that asset held as collateral.

Given this constraint, no value is ever created or destroyed in our system aside from the increasing value of BitShares themselves due to their utility.   This is like Bitcoin rising in value relative to other things.  



Apparently, you are not familiar with the economics that goes along with violating the so-called no ponzi assumption. I can own the whole world and my neighbour can own it too.
That is why we impose this assumption in the first place. Without it everything turns into complete nonsense.
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September 22, 2013, 04:31:59 PM
 #94

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This is just the type of evidence the SEC needs to put you away. Can't wait to see the internal e-mails. Now you tell me that you are still testing, you claim to not be sure, you think maybe it is an "unstable equilibrium."

But when doing reports for the press for the eyes of naive investors you say this:
http://www.coindesk.com/bitshares-p2p-trading-platform-to-offer-dividends-on-bitcoins/

Let me be clear, we believe firmly that the floor will be at or above 1 btc. We have always claimed that and always will believe it. The other end of the tail will vary based upon the interest rate value. But the market peg should keep the value above 1 btc for BitBTC. We are going to launch more than one chain in the TestNet to better understand the dividend rates impact upon prices.

You just can't seem to get this through your head and continue to attack us. What is the SEC going to put us away for? BitShares are mined the same way Bitcoins are mined. We are not selling BitShares to consumers through a premine. We have to acquire them like anyone else in a free market and have no built in advantage. We are also investing a massive amount of our resources in building the supporting infrastructure which is a total loss if BitShares was some machiavellian ponzi scheme. Just nothing makes any god damn sense in your arguments Cunicula.

I mean let's honestly think this through:

To accomplish a ponzi we are going to do the following:

Rebuild Bitmessage and NameCoin for a completely new type of Web of Trust and decentralized email > Give away for free
Build the best Bitcoin Wallet on the market where you send money to names not addresses >Give away for free
Release the testnet of BitShares to test assumptions > Give away for free and pay community bounties to try to break the system
Hope to god no one discovers the secret flaw in the system?Huh??
Then release BitShares into the wild with no vendor advantage and trading against people who have had several months to learn BitShares > SOMEHOW PROFIT?Huh?
Run away with money?Huh?

Either this is one of the worst scams in the world or it's not one. Could you honestly tell me how to scam people. I'm just at a loss here.

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September 22, 2013, 04:34:00 PM
 #95

Hey how do I report this to the SEC anyway? Anyone with experience in this area care to point me in the right direction?

What we have would have to be considered a financial instrument under the law...


Legal Classification of BitShares and BitShare-derived BitAssets
Before offering our opinion on the legal classification of BitAssets we want to remind the reader that we are not lawyers and the following does not constitute legal advice.  Please consult a legal professional in your jurisdiction before taking any actions based upon our opinions expressed below.

Throughout this paper we make reference to short, long, margin, call and put options and other traditional financial terms and instruments, however these are only analogies used to explain the behavior of these new BitAssets.  In our opinion these instruments do not meet the legal definition of a financial asset, instrument, bond, or anything else on the books aside from the most generic term 'asset'.  Before attempting to classify these new BitAssets lets review the current definitions.

A financial asset is an intangible asset that derives value because of a contractual claim.

A financial instrument is defined as "any contract that gives rise to a financial asset of one entity and a financial liability or equity instrument of another entity" according to IAS 32 and 39 (International Accounting Standards Board)

A contract is a voluntary agreement by two or more parties, each of whom intends to create one or more legal obligations between them. A contract is a legally enforceable promise or undertaking that something will or will not occur.

Elements of a contract include:
 Offer and acceptance and Meeting of the Minds
 Intention to be Legally Bound
 Consideration

Additionally the parties to a contract must have capacity to contract, its purpose must be lawful, the form must be legal, the intent must be to create a legal relationship, and the parties must consent.

Under European Union Law you must consider the MIFID (Markets in Financial Instruments Directive). This directive defines a regulated market as a multilateral system operated and/or managed by a market operator which brings together or facilitates the bringing together of multiple third-party buying and selling interests in financial instruments - in the system and in accordance with its non-discretionary rules - in a way that results in a contract in respect of the financial instruments admitted to trading under its rules and/or systems, and which is authorised and functions regularly in accordance with the provisions of Title III.

The common denominator behind all existing financial assets and liabilities (including cash) is a contractual obligation. If there are no contractual obligations made by any party to any other party then by definition BitShare derived BitAssets are not financial instruments. So lets see if we can find anything within BitShares that satisfies all or even most of the requirements of a contract.

1) Bid / Ask Transaction Published to the Block Chain.
A bid or ask is a cryptographically signed transaction by a single, anonymous party. There is no signature by any other party and no obligation to perform. The bid or ask transaction has no legal standing and creates no legal relationships. This bid or ask is processed by a network of anonymous individuals who have no capacity to contract with the anonymous party submitting the bid or ask. In theory, the bid includes payment to anyone who includes the bid in a block and could be considered signed and accepted by the miner. However, once the transaction has been included in a block there is still no outstanding obligation or legal relationship between the two anonymous parties. Furthermore, simply including the transaction in a single block by a single miner does not actually cause the transaction to be executed. It must also be accepted by all other nodes in the network and even if it is accepted there exists no legal relationship or obligation between any two parties.  Furthermore, the result of the accepted transaction is merely an anonymous update to a global shared database and could constitute free speech.
2) Short Sell Transaction Published to the Block Chain
These transactions have all of the properties of a Bid / Ask transaction with the only difference being the type of BitAsset used as the input to the transaction and the nature of the resulting outputs. It is still signed by a single anonymous party and is never signed by any other party. There is no legal obligation created nor legal relationship between two or more parties.
3) Margin Calls and Covering executed by Miners
No party has a contractual obligation to provide additional margin nor to force covering; however, no party has the ability to prevent their position from being covered when the majority of the network agrees. As a result there is no obligation of any party to enforce the margin nor legally enforceable consequences if they do not.  In fact, no entity is able to enforce the margin and therefore no one to hold liable for failure to act.  
4) Contract between Developers and Users
BitShares is a protocol for exchanging information that could be implemented by any number of individuals. The developers release the software open source without warranty or promise of any specific behavior. Users of the software get to choose which version to use and which network to join and therefore are in complete control over how they react to the information they receive from the network.  Users are even free to modify their software at will and therefore any actions or decisions made by the software are entirely an extension of the user’s will and not that of the developers.

Lastly, the developers of BitShares have only created an accounting system that manages a decentralized database.  The value of any particular entry within this database is not under control of the developers.

https://fractally.com - the next generation of decentralized autonomous organizations (DAOs).
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September 22, 2013, 04:36:59 PM
 #96


Let me be clear, we believe firmly that the floor will be at or above 1 btc. We have always claimed that and always will believe it.
I'm sorry, which version of the bible are you using? Mine doesn't say anything about the price of bitBTC.

You should submit a resume to the Chinese ministry of railways. Next time they bury people alive to hide the number of deaths in an accident, they could put you up there to explain your eternal beliefs to the press.

Quote
Chinese media was especially skeptical of the rescue efforts, particularly the burial of trains. In a press conference, the spokesman of the Railway Ministry, Wang Yongping, said that the burial was for facilitating the rescue work. The answer prompted heckling and gasps of disbelief from the journalists assembled. Wang then said to the press, "whether or not you believe [this explanation], I believe it." ("至于你信不信,我反正信了.")[60] This phrase eventually became an internet meme. When asked why a little girl was found after the rescue work had been announced finished, Wang said, "This was a miracle. We did find a living girl in the work thereafter. That was what happened." ("这是一个奇迹。我们确实在后面的工作当中发现了一个活着的女孩,事情就是这个样子。")
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September 22, 2013, 04:40:36 PM
 #97


Let me be clear, we believe firmly that the floor will be at or above 1 btc. We have always claimed that and always will believe it.

Either this is one of the worst scams in the world or it's not one. Could you honestly tell me how to scam people. I'm just at a loss here.

Don't worry you're doing a fine job.
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September 22, 2013, 04:42:22 PM
 #98

Hey how do I report this to the SEC anyway? Anyone with experience in this area care to point me in the right direction?

What we have would have to be considered a financial instrument under the law...

Right, I'm sure you are following Pirate's trial closely...
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September 22, 2013, 04:45:01 PM
 #99

Quote
friend , I don't even know what Cunicula's idea is...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=297147.0


Quote
Bitcoin is far from flawless or solid in its self , trying to build a financial mechanism on top of it is,  i feel ....  "brave"  .

BitShares shares no common code with Bitcoin we are building our own blockchain, PoW and desktop client from the ground up

Quote
I don't see the "financialization" of a blockchain innovation, why not just issue a new Cryptocurrency   ?

BitShares will be its own cryptocurrency specifically designed for the kinds of trading we are advocating. Bitcoin does not have a method to support shorts and issuing options in a trustless way. We do and we have to design an entirely new currency to do it well.

Just super quick browsed over Cunicula's idea white paper - , you see my talent is one in seeing though to the source - i have no time here , but i will say that this idea will be at least as successful as yours. . . .

looks like he is issuing bonds for both USD and Bitcoin , (Hopdollars, and ah Hopbits)  Bonds always contain risk .

Again I will always ask where the risk is derived ?

When a bond is paid (upon 7 months?) where does the Interest come from , and work derived.  

I'm working on a different level of this system here , I know some people coming from a financial background will find these things attractive - that is a tiny minority , I fear you guys might have this all backwards , but that's just my opinion here...

we can only see in the future ?

- Twitter @Kolin_Quark
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September 22, 2013, 04:45:12 PM
 #100

Hey how do I report this to the SEC anyway? Anyone with experience in this area care to point me in the right direction?

What we have would have to be considered a financial instrument under the law...

Right, I'm sure you are following Pirate's trial closely...
There is a huge difference... he took assets, Bitcoin, and issued financial instruments (promises to pay).     We never take any assets nor issue any promises to pay.  

https://fractally.com - the next generation of decentralized autonomous organizations (DAOs).
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