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Author Topic: Deepbit PPS vs. smaller Pools  (Read 4256 times)
JBDive
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July 18, 2011, 03:56:43 PM
 #1

I have been using bitcoins.lc as my primary pool for awhile but decided to see what my payout would be at Deep since the last difficulty change had bitcoins.lc taking 10 hours plus on many blocks. In doing so "technically" the payout should be the same over a period of time given that one pool having a smaller hash rate means my PPS is higher but each credit will take longer, the other having a higher (much higher) hash rate so my PPS should be lower but credit for each block will be sooner, correct?

Granted there will be some fluctuation in that very basic statement above however I should assume given my hash rate is consistent with consistent stales my overall payout would remain the same, within reason, no matter what pool I used, correct (ignoring fees and so forth)?

The reason for asking is unless I need to run a far longer test or my math is WAY off I am seeing my payout at bitcoins.lc being 2x if not a little higher over a given period on Deep. Where is my logic incorrect?

Edit: I really hate having to correct my own post within minutes of posting it. Due to Deeps delayed reporting my payout is much closer than the difference cited above. It's still better at bitcoins.lc but the difference is probably within the "luck" factor, somewhere around 1.3x better, not the 2x plus I was seeing initially. I'll leave the thread though as I am interested in comments.
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Sukrim
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July 18, 2011, 04:26:23 PM
 #2

Congratulations, you just discovered why pool hopping can pay off... Wink

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JBDive
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July 18, 2011, 05:33:50 PM
 #3

Congratulations, you just discovered why pool hopping can pay off... Wink

Which was the reason for setting up Deep in the first place, some of these smaller pools are starting to take days, weeks or longer.
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July 18, 2011, 06:28:56 PM
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Congratulations, you just discovered why pool hopping can pay off... Wink

Which was the reason for setting up Deep in the first place, some of these smaller pools are starting to take days, weeks or longer.
then again, bitminter had amazing luck and I got 2 BTC mining a couple of days with 150mhash/s because it was proportional and two blocks were found in like 200,000 shares each which is much better than the expected amount

gigabytecoin
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July 19, 2011, 06:43:03 PM
 #5

IMO there is really no reason to jump pools. You will only lose shares in the time spent reconnecting to new pools.

Over time, we all make the exact same amount of money.

Anybody who jumps from one roulette wheel after betting on red to another roulette wheel to bet on red is just plain insane.
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July 19, 2011, 06:47:49 PM
 #6

IMO there is really no reason to jump pools. You will only lose shares in the time spent reconnecting to new pools.

Over time, we all make the exact same amount of money.

Anybody who jumps from one roulette wheel after betting on red to another roulette wheel to bet on red is just plain insane.

There are hot and cold tables though. My last trip to Reno I got ate alive by this one dealer hand after hand. When that dealer was not at the table I would get ahead even though I play like crap. Now if you can bring that analogy back into Bitcoin, well, I doubt it.
gentakin
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July 19, 2011, 07:19:22 PM
 #7

Don't forget Deepbit PPS has a 10% fee, so expect to get 10% less than bitcoins.lc over a long time period.

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organofcorti
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July 21, 2011, 09:54:46 AM
 #8

IMO there is really no reason to jump pools. You will only lose shares in the time spent reconnecting to new pools.

Over time, we all make the exact same amount of money.

Anybody who jumps from one roulette wheel after betting on red to another roulette wheel to bet on red is just plain insane.

This isn't you saying that pool hopping doesn't work, is it? There's so much data out there proving it does - both empirical and theoretical.

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Xephan
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July 21, 2011, 10:35:12 AM
 #9

IMO there is really no reason to jump pools. You will only lose shares in the time spent reconnecting to new pools.

Over time, we all make the exact same amount of money.

Anybody who jumps from one roulette wheel after betting on red to another roulette wheel to bet on red is just plain insane.

You might lose some shares from reconnecting but the difference due to the proportionate weight of shares in a short run more than makes up for it if the pool hopper gets in at the right time.

After all, the time needed for 1 reconnect probably won't lose you more than 1 share per GHash.

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Sukrim
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July 21, 2011, 10:35:44 AM
 #10

IMO there is really no reason to jump pools. You will only lose shares in the time spent reconnecting to new pools.
You can fetch getworks from any pool in advance and just present the one you want to have solved to the miner locally. This means you'll have even less lag than a miner who fetches getworks after submission of results!

All in all, you don't loose any time by switching pools.

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Jack of Diamonds
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July 21, 2011, 02:10:18 PM
 #11

The only pool where I consistently get 99-100% of my expected earnings in the long run is Eligius with their SMPPS system. I'm constantly leaving prop. pools for other types due to the massive variance that occurs at current difficulties + losses from pool hoppers

I'm also looking into Mineco.in right now which has a PPLNS payment scheme,
far as I can tell from reviewing the idea for a few days, it's better than any other system in existence right now

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organofcorti
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July 22, 2011, 07:23:58 AM
 #12

The only pool where I consistently get 99-100% of my expected earnings in the long run is Eligius with their SMPPS system. I'm constantly leaving prop. pools for other types due to the massive variance that occurs at current difficulties + losses from pool hoppers

I'm also looking into Mineco.in right now which has a PPLNS payment scheme,
far as I can tell from reviewing the idea for a few days, it's better than any other system in existence right now

The only pools I get consistently 140% to 200% of my expected earnings in the long run are proportional pools. Makes you think, eh?

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Jack of Diamonds
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July 22, 2011, 08:30:10 AM
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The only pool where I consistently get 99-100% of my expected earnings in the long run is Eligius with their SMPPS system. I'm constantly leaving prop. pools for other types due to the massive variance that occurs at current difficulties + losses from pool hoppers

I'm also looking into Mineco.in right now which has a PPLNS payment scheme,
far as I can tell from reviewing the idea for a few days, it's better than any other system in existence right now

The only pools I get consistently 140% to 200% of my expected earnings in the long run are proportional pools. Makes you think, eh?

"The long run" meaning months and years, not a few days or weeks..

You can't get 'consistently' more than 100% of your expected earnings over the long run from prop. pools unless you cheat by exploiting defective pools with no scoring methods (pool hopping)

Deepbit is large enough for their sample to be taken seriously, after ½ a year at multi ghash speeds, their luck pretty much averages to +-0% if averaging all past difficulties
https://www.deepbit.net/stats

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organofcorti
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July 22, 2011, 08:41:15 AM
 #14

Quote
(pool hopping)

This

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Stupidpal
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July 22, 2011, 08:45:33 AM
 #15

The only pool where I consistently get 99-100% of my expected earnings in the long run is Eligius with their SMPPS system. I'm constantly leaving prop. pools for other types due to the massive variance that occurs at current difficulties + losses from pool hoppers

I'm also looking into Mineco.in right now which has a PPLNS payment scheme,
far as I can tell from reviewing the idea for a few days, it's better than any other system in existence right now

I've been using Eligius as well for some time now. Is mineco.in better if you mine 24/7?

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Jack of Diamonds
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July 23, 2011, 11:13:10 PM
 #16

I've been using Eligius as well for some time now. Is mineco.in better if you mine 24/7?

Yes, the PPLNS payment method rewards 24/7 miners and punishes people who disconnect during a round (accidental, or pool hopping, it doesn't know or care)

Slush has something similar, a proprietary scoring system.
The longer a round gets the more valuable new shares become, which solves the pool hopping problem & gives nobody an incentive to hop on slush in hopes of exploiting early blocks.

PPLNS is also foolproof and can be adapted by anyone because you don't need a massive balance of bitcoins for a 'rainy day' (pure PPS) or even a medium sized buffer (shared maximum PPS).
I think it will become a success among all pools in the future, or people will simply join pools with PPLNS after seeing decreased avg. earnings in the long run mining in proportional pools infested by hoppers

Of course pure PPS is 'ideal' for both the 2-hour casual miner and the 24/7 'pro' but since only the biggest pools with huge earnings like deepbit can offer it, it's not a realistic option.
Even they take a 10% fee because you gain zero variance in return. That's steep for big miners, and a lot of lost cash for 'certainty'.

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Stupidpal
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July 24, 2011, 04:38:24 AM
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I've been using Eligius as well for some time now. Is mineco.in better if you mine 24/7?

Yes, the PPLNS payment method rewards 24/7 miners and punishes people who disconnect during a round (accidental, or pool hopping, it doesn't know or care)

Slush has something similar, a proprietary scoring system.
The longer a round gets the more valuable new shares become, which solves the pool hopping problem & gives nobody an incentive to hop on slush in hopes of exploiting early blocks.

PPLNS is also foolproof and can be adapted by anyone because you don't need a massive balance of bitcoins for a 'rainy day' (pure PPS) or even a medium sized buffer (shared maximum PPS).
I think it will become a success among all pools in the future, or people will simply join pools with PPLNS after seeing decreased avg. earnings in the long run mining in proportional pools infested by hoppers

Of course pure PPS is 'ideal' for both the 2-hour casual miner and the 24/7 'pro' but since only the biggest pools with huge earnings like deepbit can offer it, it's not a realistic option.
Even they take a 10% fee because you gain zero variance in return. That's steep for big miners, and a lot of lost cash for 'certainty'.

Yeah I know, the 10% fee is a lot but MtRed is coming out with 0% PPS in a few days because of all the pool hopping problems they've been having lately.

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spiccioli
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July 24, 2011, 08:48:31 AM
 #18

JackOfDiamonds,

btcguild is PPS and has not a fixed fee, so it should be the best one for casual and not so casual miners, did you look into it?

spiccioli.
Jine
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July 24, 2011, 08:57:55 AM
 #19

BTC Guild uses a Proportional Payment Method, not PPS (Pay per share)

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Jack of Diamonds
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July 24, 2011, 10:50:14 AM
 #20

Yeah I know, the 10% fee is a lot but MtRed is coming out with 0% PPS in a few days because of all the pool hopping problems they've been having lately.

Do you have a link? MtRed would become one of the most popular pools if that were true.
Nobody can compete with 0% PPS.

Quote from: spiccioli
JackOfDiamonds,

btcguild is PPS and has not a fixed fee, so it should be the best one for casual and not so casual miners, did you look into it?

spiccioli.

I've mined at BTCguild for ages, it's just another proportional pool which has all the problems of pool hopping. The 0% fee is irrelevant because of the flawed distribution model of rewards.

PPS means you get paid for every single share you submit (fixed amount). Other pools have modified PPS schemes that are not the same thing (SMPPS, PPLNS)
No pool hopping penalties, 24/7 miner rewards, or incentive to jump in during the beginning of rounds, just getting paid for what you contribute. Pure PPS is effectively 0 variance over any time period.

The problem being that you need quite a lot of BTC in buffer to pull it off, in case of bad luck streaks and very long rounds.
Deepbit is the only pool which offers pure PPS rewards, at a hefty fee (10%)

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