Bitcoin Investment Trust Launched by Major Crowdfunding Company Secondmarket!!

[Rob768]

This may just take bitcoin to the mainstream.  Secondmarket has announced a Bitcoin investment trust to invest in Bitcoin:

http://crowdfundingforum.com/showthread.php/7790-%28Bitcointrust%29-Bitcoin-Investment-Trust

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[cypherdoc]

come one, come all.

at least those over $200K.

[gweedo]

Does anyone know how they purchase the bitcoins, do they have a ton of bitcoins and they are selling parts of that? or are they going to take the money and directly buy bitcoins? Cause if it is the latter than that could send prices down, depending on how much they raise.

[dhenson]

Does anyone know how they purchase the bitcoins, do they have a ton of bitcoins and they are selling parts of that? or are they going to take the money and directly buy bitcoins? Cause if it is the latter than that could send prices down, depending on how much they raise.

How would buying btc on the market lower the price?

[shadallion]

This seems like a seminal moment for bitcoin.  If just a few large institutional investors pick up blocks of shares (looks like $25K minimum?) then this could quickly and drastically increase the value, price, exposure and future of bitcoin.

[totaleclipseofthebank]

This is huge. First time you can actually put large amounts of money without having to trust some shady/new/foreign company. They have real law firms, real regulatory compliance, real auditors, etc., which are things you worry about with big investments.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I'm not verse in such matters, but it seems to be that this will somehow increase the price of bitcoins, with later keeping it stable. There's no way deep-pocket investors are going to let the price slip.

[bbit]

I'm not verse in such matters, but it seems to be that this will somehow increase the price of bitcoins, with later keeping it stable. There's no way deep-pocket investors are going to let the price slip.

Most likely this will be the case ^^ agreed.

[WikileaksDude]

This will indeed raise bitcoin price.

[franky1]

put simply it will eat the orders on the sell wall..

so if the price was $135 to sell

$135 - 100BTC
$136 - 100BTC
$137 - 100BTC
$138 - 100BTC
$139 - 100BTC

a order of 300BTC would make the price $138

now for some investigation (due to the ever over shadowing of the trendon shavers history.

this company is set up this year, but never claimed to be 'owned' by some bi financial and legally responsible group... only 'sponsored'.

imagine it like a football game.. if a team went into debt, you cannot take the sponsors to court as they are legally 'donators' in exchange for advertising.

now to translate more of their wording..

Through established relationships our Authorized Participant has with the major bitcoin exchanges and large private pools of bitcoins,

notice the lack of plural in participant (sounds like a one-man-band)
translates to:
we have ONE guy that has registered his bank details with the exchanges, and has friends on bitcoin-otc to buy coins from aswell

Investors can buy shares in the BIT at a set price and without having to transact in a fragmented and highly illiquid market with unregulated and newly established entities.

translates to:
you do not buy bitcoins but a percentage of ownership of the company (shares). and because the organisers claim to only be sponsors, you the owner become legally accountable for any debt/legal issues.

INVESTMENT DETAILS
Investment Minimum:
$25,000
Investor Qualification:
Accredited investor

translates to:
we dont have qualified staff, but we want legally accredited investors so that when $h!t hits the fan, they can only blame themselves.

there are more holes in every paragraph. but the main ones to look at are the who-is search on their domain............
oh look their in hiding...

well goodluck but this is not a proper institutional business, this is a one man band that throws big names into the air, pretending they own the company, when infact they can scarper with the funds leaving ownership and legal matters with the victims..

this is pirate 2.0

[Serge]

...this company is set up this year, but never claimed to be 'owned' by some bi financial and legally responsible group... only 'sponsored'...

...there are more holes in every paragraph. but the main ones to look at are the who-is search on their domain............
oh look their in hiding...

not sure where you were getting your info from

whois secondmarket.com

Domain Name: SECONDMARKET.COM
Registrar URL: http://www.godaddy.com
Updated Date: 2011-03-10 11:10:45
Creation Date: 2003-04-12 13:07:44
Registrar Expiration Date: 2020-04-12 13:07:44
Registrar: GoDaddy.com, LLC
Registrant Name: SecondMarket Holdings Inc
Registrant Organization: SecondMarket Holdings, Inc.
Registrant Street: 636 Avenue of the Americas
Registrant City: New York
Registrant State/Province: New York
Registrant Postal Code: 10011
Registrant Country: United States
Admin Name: SecondMarket Holdings Inc
Admin Organization: SecondMarket Holdings, Inc.
Admin Street: 636 Avenue of the Americas
Admin City: New York
Admin State/Province: New York
Admin Postal Code: 10011
Admin Country: United States
Admin Phone: +1.2126685920
Admin Fax:
Admin Email: billing@secondmarket.com
Tech Name: SecondMarket Holdings Inc
Tech Organization: SecondMarket Holdings, Inc.
Tech Street: 636 Avenue of the Americas
Tech City: New York
Tech State/Province: New York
Tech Postal Code: 10011
Tech Country: United States
Tech Phone: +1.2126685920
Tech Fax:
Tech Email: systems@secondmarket.com
Name Server: NS-309.AWSDNS-38.COM
Name Server: NS-1199.AWSDNS-21.ORG
Name Server: NS-554.AWSDNS-05.NET
Name Server: NS-1926.AWSDNS-48.CO.UK

from their site:

Member FINRA | MSRB | SIPC

Registered with the SEC as an alternative trading system for trading in private company shares.

[FNG]

....

this is pirate 2.0

Facebook and Twitter have sold shares pre-IPO on second market

[18RATTT]

This seems like a seminal moment for bitcoin.  If just a few large institutional investors pick up blocks of shares (looks like $25K minimum?) then this could quickly and drastically increase the value, price, exposure and future of bitcoin.

agreed! cant wait how this is going to play out.

[QuestionAuthority]

Barry Silbert has made a career and personal fortune selling things that have questionable value.

Food for thought:

http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/SecondMarket-Reviews-E432167.htm

http://techcrunch.com/2013/04/25/secondmarket-confirms-layoffs-to-have-leaner-cost-structure-become-break-even/

http://www.inc.com/eric-markowitz/second-market-second-act-sec-ruling.html

http://betabeat.com/2013/04/layoffs-at-secondmarket-barry-silbert/

http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/print-edition/2012/05/11/private-stock-markets-hope-theres.html?page=2

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-27/facebook-drives-secondmarket-broking-1-billion-private-shares.html

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/09/25/fund-to-let-investors-bet-on-price-of-bitcoins/

[odolvlobo]

INVESTMENT DETAILS
Investment Minimum:
$25,000
Investor Qualification:
Accredited investor

translates to:
we dont have qualified staff, but we want legally accredited investors so that when $h!t hits the fan, they can only blame themselves.

You are misinterpreting this. The reason they limit it to "accredited" investors is because that is the law. The dirty little secret about the crowdfunding law is that it only benefits "accredited investors" (aka "the rich") .



Anyway, it doesn't matter to anyone here since there is not much of a reason to own shares of a fund when you can own the bitcoins directly.

[franky1]

Serge.

secondmarket is CROWDFUNDING which means its an affiliate thing with many members across the world.

so who-ising second market does not tell you much about the 'one man band' guy that is the AFFILIATE of secondmarket, and the SPONSOR ofthe trust.

LEARN TO RESEARCH

INVESTMENT DETAILS
Investment Minimum:
$25,000
Investor Qualification:
Accredited investor

translates to:
we dont have qualified staff, but we want legally accredited investors so that when $h!t hits the fan, they can only blame themselves.

You are misinterpreting this. The reason they limit it to "accredited" investors is because that is the law. The dirty little secret about the crowdfunding law is that it only benefits "accredited investors" (aka "the rich") .

you are half right.. but when playing with bitcoins is still an unregulated market.. there is no 'law' governing it.

Anyway, it doesn't matter to anyone here since there is not much of a reason to own shares of a fund when you can own the bitcoins directly.

totally agree. why own shares of a fake company that has a single guy hiding behind it with all the private keys.. anyone with any understanding of bitcoin would be stupid to invest in a share deal of such risk.

buy bitcoins direct.

[smoothie]

Was this the "Big" announcement?

[Herp]

Does anyone know how they purchase the bitcoins, do they have a ton of bitcoins and they are selling parts of that? or are they going to take the money and directly buy bitcoins? Cause if it is the latter than that could send prices down, depending on how much they raise.

How would buying btc on the market lower the price?

Big whales like this can buy huge amounts of bitcoins on exchanges and cause panic sells. So it would be best if they brought coins at low amounts over time.

Bitcoin market is way too small($1.5bil) and way too illiquid for big players to afford the luxury of buying every now and then.

When this big money enters the market, price will explode. Those who want in at a good price will have to buy before other big boys do. They won't mind paying 200-300/coin now instead of paying 500-600 months later.

[Herp]

franky1 should stop posting out of shame for quite some time now. Can't believe people can be this ignorant.

The Bitcoin Investment Trust(BIT) is owned by a subsidiary of Secondmarket, Alternative Currency Asset Management. Same platform that allowed investors to purchase Twitter and Facebook pre-IPO, Groupon pre-IPO. It's widely recognized and respected platform with potential to easily triple or quadruple Bitcoin price.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daniel-gross/facebook-ipo-already-happened-several-months-ago-secondmarket-134457488.html

[Endgame]

This is great news and brings bitcoin one step closer to the financial mainstream.

[odolvlobo]

Does anyone know how they purchase the bitcoins, do they have a ton of bitcoins and they are selling parts of that? or are they going to take the money and directly buy bitcoins? Cause if it is the latter than that could send prices down, depending on how much they raise.

How would buying btc on the market lower the price?

Big whales like this can buy huge amounts of bitcoins on exchanges and cause panic sells. So it would be best if they brought coins at low amounts over time.

What? You must be confused. Someone buying huge amounts of bitcoins would drive the price UP. Do you think that someone selling a huge amount of bitcoins would cause a panic buy?

[cypherdoc]

Does anyone know how they purchase the bitcoins, do they have a ton of bitcoins and they are selling parts of that? or are they going to take the money and directly buy bitcoins? Cause if it is the latter than that could send prices down, depending on how much they raise.

How would buying btc on the market lower the price?

Big whales like this can buy huge amounts of bitcoins on exchanges and cause panic sells. So it would be best if they brought coins at low amounts over time.

What? You must be confused. Someone buying huge amounts of bitcoins would drive the price UP. Do you think that someone selling a huge amount of bitcoins would cause a panic buy?

his brain works backwards.

[QuestionAuthority]

Does anyone know how they purchase the bitcoins, do they have a ton of bitcoins and they are selling parts of that? or are they going to take the money and directly buy bitcoins? Cause if it is the latter than that could send prices down, depending on how much they raise.

How would buying btc on the market lower the price?

Big whales like this can buy huge amounts of bitcoins on exchanges and cause panic sells. So it would be best if they brought coins at low amounts over time.

What? You must be confused. Someone buying huge amounts of bitcoins would drive the price UP. Do you think that someone selling a huge amount of bitcoins would cause a panic buy?

his brain works backwards.

buy, buy, sell as fast as you can - what? rofl

[btbrae]

Be interesting to see if anybody invests. I'm not sure.

My take is that a lot of older generation's wealthy folk will shun Bitcoin from the go as they simply cannot get their head around the concept. Some of these guys spent so many years watching things come and go and beating the same old stick that it has become almost impossible to acclimatise their brain to new ideas and technology, especially in finance. The young & wealthy are more likely to be curious, investigate and invest themselves through more direct routes. Then again I'm sure SecondMarket had enough interest to put the plan through the motions so I'm skeptical of my own skepticism. Hopeful.

[Herp]

Be interesting to see if anybody invests. I'm not sure.

My take is that a lot of older generation's wealthy folk will shun Bitcoin from the go as they simply cannot get their head around the concept. Some of these guys spent so many years watching things come and go and beating the same old stick that it has become almost impossible to acclimatise their brain to new ideas and technology, especially in finance. The young & wealthy are more likely to be curious, investigate and invest themselves through more direct routes. Then again I'm sure SecondMarket had enough interest to put the plan through the motions so I'm skeptical of my own skepticism. Hopeful.

Soros can't probably get his head around Facebook, yet he invested in it and this is a guy who was a boy during WW2.

Wealthy people invest in paradigm shifts and Bitcoin is a paradigm shift in the financial world. Bill Gates called Bitcoin "A technological tour de force". Old investors are paying attention and will invest in the next thing because that's where the growth and money is.

However, there are plenty of younger billionaire hedge fund investors out there. Old guys like Buffett, Icahn, Soros are just part of the pack.

[cypherdoc]

Be interesting to see if anybody invests. I'm not sure.

My take is that a lot of older generation's wealthy folk will shun Bitcoin from the go as they simply cannot get their head around the concept. Some of these guys spent so many years watching things come and go and beating the same old stick that it has become almost impossible to acclimatise their brain to new ideas and technology, especially in finance. The young & wealthy are more likely to be curious, investigate and invest themselves through more direct routes. Then again I'm sure SecondMarket had enough interest to put the plan through the motions so I'm skeptical of my own skepticism. Hopeful.

Soros can't probably get his head around Facebook, yet he invested in it and this is a guy who was a boy during WW2.

Wealthy people invest in paradigm shifts and Bitcoin is a paradigm shift in the financial world. Bill Gates called Bitcoin "A technological tour de force". Old investors are paying attention and will invest in the next thing because that's where the growth and money is.

However, there are plenty of younger billionaire hedge fund investors out there. Old guys like Buffett, Icahn, Soros are just part of the pack.

yes. 

also alot of these older wealthy will actually listen and take the advice of the younger wealthy generation, even if they don't understand Bitcoin, as they realize the world is changing.

[odolvlobo]

yes.  
also alot of these older wealthy will actually listen and take the advice of the younger wealthy generation, even if they don't understand Bitcoin, as they realize the world is changing.

Ahh, the ignorance of youth. We think we know everything, yet we know nothing. We think that because something is new to us, it is new to everyone. Let me FTFY

also alot of these younger wealthy will never listen and take the advice of the older wealthy generation, even if they don't understand Bitcoin, as because they don't realize the world is has always been changing.

[SgtSpike]

So, if I understand this correctly, this is about the same thing as what the Winklevoss brothers were trying to do?

[Herp]

So, if I understand this correctly, this is about the same thing as what the Winklevoss brothers were trying to do?

Yeah, just that it won't be accessible to low income investors.

http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000201609&startTime=0&endTime=404

[SgtSpike]

So, if I understand this correctly, this is about the same thing as what the Winklevoss brothers were trying to do?

Yeah, just that it won't be accessible to low income investors.

http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000201609&startTime=0&endTime=404

Thanks!  Good video too.

[franky1]

franky1 should stop posting out of shame for quite some time now. Can't believe people can be this ignorant.

The Bitcoin Investment Trust(BIT) is owned by a subsidiary of Secondmarket, Alternative Currency Asset Management.

im not even sure why im replying to a guy with under 100 activity and 3 months membership, but here is it as simple as possible:

READ THEIR WEBSITE - http://www.bitcointrust.co/

Launched in 2013, the BIT is sponsored by Alternative Currency Asset Management (ACAM), a wholly-owned subsidiary of SecondMarket Holdings, Inc. and an affiliate of SecondMarket, Inc. (custodian, marketing and distribution partner).

ACAM are not working as OWNERS of BIT, but as management consultants that have sponsored some guy to handle the private keys.

put it into real world terms. if you OWN a surfboard shop and a well known brandname SPONSORS you, and provides advertising and management consultants to help boost sales. when the surf shop goes into debt.. do the debt collectors chase the well known brand.. no

in actual fact the sponsors can tell the courts they too invested millions into the surf shop and lots of labour time too, and they want to make a claim for losses against the surfshop..

now who actually owns the surfshop... well the investors that have shares in the surfshop ofcourse...

my point being if you want to throw $100k at bitcoin, BUY BITCOINS. not these shares.

[faiza1990]

So, if I understand this correctly, this is about the same thing as what the Winklevoss brothers were trying to do?

Yeah, just that it won't be accessible to low income investors.

http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000201609&startTime=0&endTime=404

Thanks!  Good video too.

good and very helpful thanks for this

[SheHadMANHands]

come one, come all.

at least those over $200K.

LOL

"It's not perfect, so it's basically bad news.  Sell your bitcoins while you can!"  

[cypherdoc]

come one, come all.

at least those over $200K.

LOL

"It's not perfect, so it's basically bad news.  Sell your bitcoins while you can!"  

looks like i am out of date already.

it's minimum $25K.

[SheHadMANHands]

come one, come all.

at least those over $200K.

LOL

"It's not perfect, so it's basically bad news.  Sell your bitcoins while you can!"  

looks like i am out of date already.

it's minimum $25K.

It's still great news.  These are the people with $$$$$$.  Not $.

[FNG]

come one, come all.

at least those over $200K.

LOL

"It's not perfect, so it's basically bad news.  Sell your bitcoins while you can!"  

looks like i am out of date already.

it's minimum $25K.

$200k would be yearly income required to be considered an accredited investor (or net worth over $1mil)

[Stephen Gornick]

accredited investor (or net worth over $1mil)

In one of the interviews (maybe this CNBC one, I didn't go back to listen to it again to verify) Silbert refers to BIT being open only to "sophisticated investors".    I wasn't familiar with that term.  Here it is:

Typically, a sophisticated investor must have either a net worth of $2.5 million or have earned more than $250,000 in the past two years to qualify.

- http://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/sophisticatedinvestor.asp

[NewLiberty]

And the sophisticated investor net worth calculation excludes primary residence.  On the theory that where you live is consumption, not investment.

Be interesting to see if anybody invests. I'm not sure.

My take is that a lot of older generation's wealthy folk will shun Bitcoin from the go as they simply cannot get their head around the concept. Some of these guys spent so many years watching things come and go and beating the same old stick that it has become almost impossible to acclimatise their brain to new ideas and technology, especially in finance. The young & wealthy are more likely to be curious, investigate and invest themselves through more direct routes. Then again I'm sure SecondMarket had enough interest to put the plan through the motions so I'm skeptical of my own skepticism. Hopeful.

Some hedge fund money managers and fund runners can enjoy this too, just not to the degree of an on exchange ETF, but this does give them more legal cover (and a deeper pocket they can sue) if there is something fishy.

It adds confidence.  It brings in new buyers, it creates some increased awareness, and someone else's lawyers can fight some of the battles that may arise.  Lots of good things here, just like most of what the Winklevoss team is doing is good for Bitcoin generally.

What it doesn't do is the grass-roots work of developing the Bitcoin economy, and it doesn't do much for most of us.  I have some fair bit or retirement money that I would like to have in bitcoin but IRAs and 401Ks have limits on how you can invest them.

When bitcoins will be represented in investment trusts and funds that these sorts of accounts can hold, it will be a win.  This brings that a step closer.  Bigger news would be a major online retailer having an option to buy using bitcoin thus taking advantage of the lower transaction costs.  Usage stimulates the Bitcoin economy more than trading.  Trading relies on usage for supporting the valuations.

[Rob768]

Anybody think that this recent spike in bitcoin could be this new trust buying it up... along with other things of course.

[benjamindees]

who-is search on their domain............

Oh, look, you do know how to do a whois search after all.  How enlightening.

their whois details are of a french guy, french address but having a .co.uk website

And what is this?  You've had this skill for a long time.  Interesting.

Funny how this ability seems to come and go for you, depending on which thread you are trolling at the moment.

[AgeraS]

I looked into Second Market and decided not to go with them because their fees are too high. They charge 1.5% to liquidate and additionally charge 2% per annum. For me it was much easier to use Bitstamp and then use an Armory offline wallet with paper backups. 

[proudhon]

I looked into Second Market and decided not to go with them because their fees are too high. They charge 1.5% to liquidate and additionally charge 2% per annum. For me it was much easier to use Bitstamp and then use an Armory offline wallet with paper backups. 

Good for you.  One of the great advantages of bitcoin is that with reasonably accessible security, you can manage your own wealth.  Just make sure you distribute your backups so they're not all in one place

[franky1]

who-is search on their domain............

Oh, look, you do know how to do a whois search after all.  How enlightening.

their whois details are of a french guy, french address but having a .co.uk website

And what is this?  You've had this skill for a long time.  Interesting.

Funny how this ability seems to come and go for you, depending on which thread you are trolling at the moment.

learn to read...

second market DO NOT OWN BIT they only sponsor it.

so doing a who-is on secondmarket is futile as they are not the legal owners of your money you invest..

you are meant to look for who the OWNERS of BIT are. the legally identifable owners, so that when the crap hits the fan you know who to sue.

you cannot sue second market, as they have clearly said they are only sponsors.. not owners..

so before you invest.. find out who is the owner...

http://who.is/whois/http://www.bitcointrust.co

the domain is registered through go-daddy and the IP address of the server is going through a linode VPS.

for a legitimate OWNER asking for high value customers, hiding away their identity is fishy..

[Stephen Gornick]

I haven't seen this claim posted here yet.