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Author Topic: Bitcoin client rounding up all TX fees to .01!  (Read 4323 times)
AngelusWebDesign
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July 19, 2011, 03:22:48 PM
 #1

I have my transaction (TX) fee set to 0.0005 under "Options".

I just sent some Bitcoins, and noticed that my TX fee was rounded up to .01 BTC!

That's a lot for a lousy 1 BTC transaction. Might as well use Paypal! I thought Bitcoin was about low fees?

Anyhow, is this a bug in the latest client (0.3.24) or is this an actual policy change?

I want a new client before I do any more Bitcoin transactions. 14 cents for a $14 transaction is too high, considering the youth and risk of Bitcoin. It's too close to Paypal's level of fees.
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gentakin
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July 19, 2011, 03:30:05 PM
 #2

maybe the change was <0.01BTC and this caused the anti-spam-fee of 0.01BTC?

Like this:

You want to send 0.99BTC.
Your client picks an old input of 1.0BTC.
Your client wants to add 0.0005BTC fees.

Now, there's one output of 0.99 and one of 0.0095 (the change). The remaining 0.0005 are meant to be the fee.
Now the client realizes that one output is below 0.01BTC and the anti-spam-fee of 0.01BTC kicks in, so you get no change at all.

This is just a guess, I have no clue if bitcoin tries to avoid having <0.01BTC for change.

Could you send the blockexplorer link?

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AngelusWebDesign
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July 19, 2011, 03:39:39 PM
 #3

This actually happened to me twice so far.

I seriously doubt it's just me -- but it only started happening with the latest client.

Anyone out there could test it -- just set your transaction fee to .0005 and see what happens.
You'll be charged .01, even though the client never warns you that it's being increased.

Completely unacceptable. If Bitcoin is still this mickey-mouse (or "alpha", pick your adjective) we'll never see more than a few 10,000's of people adopt it -- ever.
fabianhjr
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July 19, 2011, 03:48:10 PM
 #4

What software version do you have?

elggawf
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July 19, 2011, 04:16:44 PM
 #5

You're doing it wrong:

Code:
Debit: -0.01
Transaction fee: -0.001
Net amount: -0.011

0.3.24 alpha

^_^
arnoldrimmer
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July 19, 2011, 04:21:16 PM
 #6

same here using 0.3.24beta just cleans everthing out behind 0.01 happend twice for me
DonnyCMU
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July 19, 2011, 04:29:49 PM
 #7

Really? Thx god I didn't upgrade!
I often make small transactions of 0.5 btc or less, many to those bitcoin gamblings.

I understand Bitcoin is not designed for micro payments, but at current price, 1-2 usd (0.1 btc) isn't micro at all; it's just small transactions.
It would be horrendous to be charge 2-10% fee for these transactions.
AngelusWebDesign
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July 19, 2011, 04:44:45 PM
 #8

Ok, how do we get this fixed?  Are they aware of this problem, and working on a fix?

Who do I need to report this to?
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July 19, 2011, 04:52:34 PM
 #9

Post the blockexplorer link, as another poster requested.

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AngelusWebDesign
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July 19, 2011, 05:09:22 PM
 #10

How do I do that?
makomk
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July 19, 2011, 08:41:44 PM
 #11

Now, there's one output of 0.99 and one of 0.0095 (the change). The remaining 0.0005 are meant to be the fee.
Now the client realizes that one output is below 0.01BTC and the anti-spam-fee of 0.01BTC kicks in, so you get no change at all.

This is just a guess, I have no clue if bitcoin tries to avoid having <0.01BTC for change.
I seem to vaguely remember one of the developers saying in IRC a while ago that Bitcoin deliberately gets rid of any change left over from a bitcoin transaction that's less than 0.01 BTC by giving it away as a fee. Something about bitdust removal...

Edit: Yep, bingo!

Code:
               // Fill a vout back to self with any change
                int64 nChange = nValueIn - nTotalValue;
                if (nChange >= CENT)
                {
                    [ snipped code here that actually give you change back if it exceeds 0.01 BTC ]

Edit 2: The anti-spam fee was dropped to 0.0005 as part of the fee reductions from what I can tell, so that couldn't cause it.

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AngelusWebDesign
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July 19, 2011, 09:28:41 PM
 #12

What the heck?   I want my bitdust.

So if my balance is 1.85, I should send "1.85" in, so it can't steal any of it?

So you're saying that it might give me the prompt "You must pay .0005" and it will take that much out, or will it still round it up to .01 BTC?

This needs to be fixed. I don't want to pay 15 cents for a lousy 1 BTC transaction. Not worth it.

If I wanted to pay those kind of fees I'd stick with Paypal. And I don't want to hear about "support the network" blahblahblah... in the here and now, that isn't necessary.

If, tomorrow, everyone started using a patched client that allowed 0 fees, NOTHING WOULD CHANGE AT ALL in the Bitcoin world, except a few pool operators would have a bit less side income. Miners mine today for BTC, not for transaction fees. Maybe this will change in the future. But we can worry about that in the future.

I wish I could make a 5 BTC bet -- because I'm that confident about it. Total Network Hashrate wouldn't change AT ALL (except normal variance) if all transaction fees disappeared tomorrow.

So crap like this basically takes money from casual BTC users and gives it to a handful of people who operate pools. Nice.
CurbsideProphet
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July 19, 2011, 09:35:45 PM
 #13

If you set your transaction fee to zero, then send the transaction, it should prompt you that you need to add on a fee of 0.0005.  Clicking the button to agree to pay the fee should then properly debit the correct fee amount.  It did for me anyway.

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gentakin
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July 19, 2011, 09:38:27 PM
 #14

Edit 2: The anti-spam fee was dropped to 0.0005 as part of the fee reductions from what I can tell, so that couldn't cause it.

Thanks for the clarification. The same happened to me in an earlier bitcoin version and I (mistakenly) thought it was the anti-spam fees.
Angelus, search for the address you sent those bitcoins to on blockexplorer. Then look for your transaction on the result page. If it has only 1 output, it's probably because of the code makomk posted.

I think that code is useless and doesn't scale well. I certainly have no problems with "bit dust" sitting in my wallet, and in the future, when 1BTC=100000000000000USD, that dust might buy me a nice car and more. Grin

@CurbsideProphet: No, it happened to me before - it asked for a 0.0005 fee, but then took more (like 0.007 if I remember correctly - all my change).

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makomk
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July 19, 2011, 10:52:49 PM
 #15

So you're saying that it might give me the prompt "You must pay .0005" and it will take that much out, or will it still round it up to .01 BTC?
It might just pay the .0005, it might pay .01 BTC, or it might pay some amount in-between - depends on the value of the coins that the client selects to make the payment with. There's no way of predicting this in advance. If I'm reading the anti-dust code correctly it could even charge a sub-0.01 BTC "fee" without prompting at all, though that's probably fairly unlikely to happen in practice.

If, tomorrow, everyone started using a patched client that allowed 0 fees, NOTHING WOULD CHANGE AT ALL in the Bitcoin world, except a few pool operators would have a bit less side income. Miners mine today for BTC, not for transaction fees. Maybe this will change in the future. But we can worry about that in the future.
The fees aren't meant to be there to support the miners at the moment, they're there because without them it's too easy for people to spam the blockchain with bogus transactions that send money to themselves again and again. This apparently did happen for a while.

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Sukrim
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July 19, 2011, 11:21:45 PM
 #16

I always pay negative fees, so I get money back when spending it! Cool

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July 19, 2011, 11:36:01 PM
 #17

What the heck?   I want my bitdust.

So if my balance is 1.85, I should send "1.85" in, so it can't steal any of it?

So you're saying that it might give me the prompt "You must pay .0005" and it will take that much out, or will it still round it up to .01 BTC?

This needs to be fixed. I don't want to pay 15 cents for a lousy 1 BTC transaction. Not worth it.

If I wanted to pay those kind of fees I'd stick with Paypal. And I don't want to hear about "support the network" blahblahblah... in the here and now, that isn't necessary.

If, tomorrow, everyone started using a patched client that allowed 0 fees, NOTHING WOULD CHANGE AT ALL in the Bitcoin world, except a few pool operators would have a bit less side income. Miners mine today for BTC, not for transaction fees. Maybe this will change in the future. But we can worry about that in the future.

I wish I could make a 5 BTC bet -- because I'm that confident about it. Total Network Hashrate wouldn't change AT ALL (except normal variance) if all transaction fees disappeared tomorrow.

So crap like this basically takes money from casual BTC users and gives it to a handful of people who operate pools. Nice.



you are so boring, dude
please go with paypal

If you don't own the private keys, you don't own the coins.
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July 20, 2011, 12:03:38 AM
 #18

What the heck?   I want my bitdust.

So if my balance is 1.85, I should send "1.85" in, so it can't steal any of it?

So you're saying that it might give me the prompt "You must pay .0005" and it will take that much out, or will it still round it up to .01 BTC?

This needs to be fixed. I don't want to pay 15 cents for a lousy 1 BTC transaction. Not worth it.

If I wanted to pay those kind of fees I'd stick with Paypal. And I don't want to hear about "support the network" blahblahblah... in the here and now, that isn't necessary.

If, tomorrow, everyone started using a patched client that allowed 0 fees, NOTHING WOULD CHANGE AT ALL in the Bitcoin world, except a few pool operators would have a bit less side income. Miners mine today for BTC, not for transaction fees. Maybe this will change in the future. But we can worry about that in the future.

I wish I could make a 5 BTC bet -- because I'm that confident about it. Total Network Hashrate wouldn't change AT ALL (except normal variance) if all transaction fees disappeared tomorrow.

So crap like this basically takes money from casual BTC users and gives it to a handful of people who operate pools. Nice.

Go to blockexplorer.com and look up your transaction. Post a link to it here. Until then there is no way of determining what is going on, and no point to your message.

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duncant
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July 20, 2011, 12:55:56 AM
 #19

I am experiencing this phenomenon too. Just to test, I sent myself a couple transactions with the TXfee set to 0.0005 BTC in the 0.3.24 client.

TXIDs:
dab79afb3a2254425dd952a8e96d66231ca73b3e5976f6dfa694733b22483d4b
a5a858ffefbf966359b14f2c86f38f9aaabc1d36a70029c2bae530cb7256cabf

This is disturbing to say the least. I think I'll be downgrading my client to the 0.3.23 version.
error
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July 20, 2011, 01:33:27 AM
 #20

I am experiencing this phenomenon too. Just to test, I sent myself a couple transactions with the TXfee set to 0.0005 BTC in the 0.3.24 client.

TXIDs:
dab79afb3a2254425dd952a8e96d66231ca73b3e5976f6dfa694733b22483d4b
a5a858ffefbf966359b14f2c86f38f9aaabc1d36a70029c2bae530cb7256cabf

This is disturbing to say the least. I think I'll be downgrading my client to the 0.3.23 version.

Looks like you somehow spent a coin with 0 confirmations, which is why you got hit with a fee. Though why it was 0.0055 instead of 0.0005 is a problem.

The previous transaction is kind of odd though; I don't think that it should have had a fee at all.

Have you tried setting the transaction fee to 0?

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