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Author Topic: Why bitcoin is worthless  (Read 442 times)
atjiat
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March 10, 2018, 07:17:58 PM
 #61

WTF Bitcoin has to do with Swift's private blockchain again?

See topic title. You started about SWIFT. Regardless of that, it's at the core of blockchain technology that it can't do many transactions per second. It's not only bitcoin, it's blockchain in general that's unsuitable for payment systems. Exactly like the author describes in his article.
The fact is that bitcoin can not be a means of payment at all, especially if you look at price fluctuations in the market, it just outraged. In addition, many members of society will not be able to use bitcoin in real life and not only because of their limited knowledge, but also because of technical capabilities.

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March 10, 2018, 07:20:48 PM
 #62

WTF Bitcoin has to do with Swift's private blockchain again?

See topic title. You started about SWIFT. Regardless of that, it's at the core of blockchain technology that it can't do many transactions per second. It's not only bitcoin, it's blockchain in general that's unsuitable for payment systems. Exactly like the author describes in his article.
The fact is that bitcoin can not be a means of payment at all, especially if you look at price fluctuations in the market, it just outraged. In addition, many members of society will not be able to use bitcoin in real life and not only because of their limited knowledge, but also because of technical capabilities.

Well that's another thing indeed. Even if some genius would invent (much) faster blockchain technology some day in the future, then most shops still wouldn't want to use it due to the volatility. If you're on online shop and your margin is 3%, are you going to accept payments that can easily be worth 10-20% less at the end of the day? That would just be insane.
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March 10, 2018, 08:04:24 PM
 #63

Well that's another thing indeed. Even if some genius would invent (much) faster blockchain technology some day in the future, then most shops still wouldn't want to use it due to the volatility. If you're on online shop and your margin is 3%, are you going to accept payments that can easily be worth 10-20% less at the end of the day? That would just be insane.

If those merchants started to accept it the volatility would disappear because they would be able to pay their suppliers in BTC to get stuff that they've just sold for BTC, so the coins would never end up on an exchange and would not affect the value of BTC vs fiat in the merchant's country. The exchanges are causing the volatility because the supply of coins on each of these platforms is extremely limited wen compared to the supply in circulation. This means that a small amount, like 5% of the total supply can easily crash the price or take it to the moon and we are seeing things like that happening every year.
IMO BTC can be a means of payment it only requires an economy built around it and people trading it directly, without having to use fiat.

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March 10, 2018, 09:00:33 PM
 #64

...Regardless of that, it's at the core of blockchain technology that it can't do many transactions per second. It's not only bitcoin, it's blockchain in general that's unsuitable for payment systems.

That's pretty flawed statement. Cryptos are alredy proven to work as a payment system, because you can pay with them. What you're saying is one blockchain/crypto is unsuitable to become a one, global currency. But, even assuming it's true, I seriously fail to see how does that makes cryptos worthless. Where did you get the idea "it's all or nothing"? Explain why Bitcoin, or any other crypto, is only worth something when it has the capacity to service every person in the world? Why would it have no value if stays forever in a niche?






sjefdeklerk
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March 11, 2018, 01:05:51 AM
 #65

That's pretty flawed statement. Cryptos are alredy proven to work as a payment system, because you can pay with them.

Oh really ? I don't even know of a single shop in my country that accepts them. Only a hand few of online retailers accept them and the list is shrinking quickly. Big parties like Steam have stopped accepting them because of all the problems mentioned.

Where did you get the idea "it's all or nothing"? Explain why Bitcoin, or any other crypto, is only worth something when it has the capacity to service every person in the world? Why would it have no value if stays forever in a niche?
Do you really believe that some shops will continue to accept them, if pretty much none of their clients is using it? Why go through all that trouble?
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March 12, 2018, 10:42:37 AM
 #66

You don't need to have a numeric way to measure two things against each other to say one is greater than the other. You don't need quantitative data to back every statement you make in your life. I can say that Mozart was more talented at writing and performing music than Kirk Cousins is at playing quarterback in the NFL and there is no way to measure this, but everyone would agree that it is true. It's not an unreasonable statement to make at all.
But what you said is more in line with:
You- Kirk Cousins is not worth $20m/year contract!
Me- How much do you think he's worth then?
You- Hurr durr what kind of question is that? You can't put a figure on skills!
Me- wtf??

This is completely wrong. You didn't understand the analogy. You omitted Mozart entirely.

You really don't believe me? Transactions were costing insane amounts of money in November/December last year and taking weeks to process. They were stuck sitting in mem pools forever. Here is the ID, although I don't think there is any way you can see when I submitted it: 7345a9bc63c1532082414d1849ff908a18f4dbdc0859959197fa022c66a2dd3e
Yes you can. Your tx took less than 5 days, not 8. You paid $20.43 worth of fees (at that time) not $40. You exaggerated by a factor of x3.2. With $40 fee, standard sized tx would likely get included in the next block (even during peak congestion time), that's why I called you out on that.

If what you are saying is true then it doesn't even matter anyway. You're really grasping at straws here. $20.43 and 5 days is still insanely far beyond anything reasonable. Cue you asking for a specific number for time and fee that is reasonable... I'll answer you now - faster than the time I have to wait for a credit card to process at a store, and a lower fee than the net profit the CC companies make per transaction.

I never claimed they were settled, that is irrelevant. It just has to be confirmed for a credit card transaction... you can't just accept that a bitcoin transaction will be all set when it enters the mem pool... in the case of bitcoin, you NEED to wait for it to settle.
You could before RBF was implemented and blocks weren't full. The risk was there but it was far lower than the risk of fraudulent credit card chargeback (btw, merchant can consider cc payment fully settled when chargeback time limit expires), so perfectly fine for small/mid transactions. You can still do that with BCH, you have other coins with near-instant confirmations (or instant non-blockchain coins) and you have other solutions like LN in a making. Wait, why am I feeling like I'm repeating myself...

Wrong, risk of fraudulent bitcoin transactions is higher. Both credit cards and bitcoin come with the risk of someone stealing your credentials and pretending to be you u- the difference being that you will most likely be reimbursed by the credit card company in their case. Plus, they are getting better and better at automatically detecting fraud. PLUS, people can submit fraudulent bitcoin transactions without your info... it will just get rejected. It will take longer for it to be rejected than for a credit card transaction to be successfully submitted.

Also in regards to your RBF point... none of the major bitcoin wallets implement RBF and the majority of people don't know what it is.

If you build a payment system on top of bitcoin then you are taking something decentralized and improving it by centralizing it. Coinbase can do instant transfers because they control all of the bitcoin and know all of their private keys are valid. You can't transfer into or out of Coinbase instantly. If you want all bitcoin payments to be controlled by a sytem like Coinbase then why even use bitcoin at all? What is the benefit of that over credit cards?
There is always a tradeoff between decentralization/trustlessness and speed/scalability. Nobody is SOLVING the pitfalls of crypto without sacrificing decentralization and trustlessness.

Relying on 3rd parties on top of blockchain is hypothetical dark scenario when everything else fails. Even then you have benefit of having control over majority of your funds and only depositing smaller amounts to the 3rd parties. Having to trust someone with your $200 is not the same as having to trust someone with all your money, all the time, isn't it?

I'm sure even you put at least a tiny value in having an option in life (to use crypto if you ever feel like it), it's better than not having such option.

The point is that a "third party" blockchain or centralized, non-trustless blockchain is pointless because it doesn't bring the benefit of decentralization and it far underperforms its direct competitor - a traditional database.

The difference between bitcoin and mcdonalds is that mcdonalds has a book value. They have stores, inventory, etc. They also have sales, and earnings... income... bitcoin has none of that. It has no intrinsic value, which is why it cannot exist in this limbo state you described forever.
Bitcoins also have book value. You didn't address the point. Can you explain, precisely at what tx/sec capacity rate BTC moves from being completely worthless to being worth something. What's the magic number?

Bitcoin does not have a book value. To answer your question, see my response to your other quote. It has to be better than credit cards and banks to be worth anything.

No, you are saying that Swift and others investing in private non-trustless blockchains means they have value.

It's a strong indicator that they find the technology useful. I don't expect Swift is spending shitloads on blockchain solutions just to bump their stock price, because they are a Society and don't even have a listed stock + probably they would be the first to debunk the blockchain tech if it was indeed useless (as it's a direct competition to their service). Just as I find it hard to believe that Blockstream would manage to sell their private blockchain solutions to any business if it was indeed inferior to the existing tech etc.

Yes, I find it more credible than word of an anonymous forum "expert", with no history, saying "they're all wrong/they're a fraud".

Second of all, I don't see any real connection between BTC's worth and usefulness of private chains, so couldn't care less.

They could be pushing up the value of their shares in the private market. Investors exchange shares of private companies all the time. Either way, regardless of whether or not that is the reason, this is not an indicator that private blockchains are useful any more than Jamie Dimon's comments on bitcoin are an indicator that it is a fraud.

Creating a new crypto and automatically assigning it value is exactly what is happening every day! Look at all the IPOs everywhere. This is literally what bitcoin is... creating value out of nothing. If it worked for bitcoin, eth, bch, ltc, iota, xrp, doge, etc... why would we think this will stop?

So if I create my own premined shitcoin and assign its value at $1m/coin, I'd be instantly the richest man in the world? Or, could it be, I actually need someone to buy from me at that price?

What you are saying here is that the work in creating a crypto is convincing other people to give it value. The only reason they would give it value is if they think that other people will give it a higher value. I don't consider crypto to be a Ponzi Scheme but I can see why a lot of people do.

I'm not saying it's easy to go out and create a coin and get value for it, but it is being done consistently.

USD has intrinsic value because every person and organization in the US is required by law to accept it as payment for debt. It is legally guaranteed value by the US government. I would argue that this is intrinsic value. This differs from bitcoin, which nobody is required to accept anywhere.

What's guaranteed is USD acceptance, not its value. Zimbabwean Dollars were also a legal tender and how did that work in terms of retaining the value?  There's no intrinsic value in USD. What's funny, it can get worse than that, in some cases being legal tender can prevent you from extracting intrinsic value from physical notes/coins, i.e. scrap metal value of 1 cent coin exceeds 1 cent, but scrapping/destroying official money is a criminal offence.

The fact that people NEED USD to pay their taxes and make every day purchases gives it value. If I have a dollar, I know with certainty that it won't be worthless tomorrow because the government requires citizens to use it to pay their taxes and debts... not Zimbabwean dollars, US Dollars. Yes, the value will fluctuate, but it will still have some value. I'm not saying USD is a good investment - it's definitely not.

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March 12, 2018, 02:21:12 PM
 #67

Bitcoin worthless because it has the potential as a investment highly favorable, because the value of the bitcoin that is good then when we bought with cheap prices then some time to the front of us will get huge profits because of the value bitcoin who kept up every time
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March 12, 2018, 02:51:32 PM
 #68

Bitcoin worthless because it has the potential as a investment highly favorable, because the value of the bitcoin that is good then when we bought with cheap prices then some time to the front of us will get huge profits because of the value bitcoin who kept up every time
Yes, actually it can be said worthless for some reasons others not believing about bitcoin that can be valuable in the future. The current value of bitcoin is worth buying now though it drops but it will usually recover. Whatever the article says, I believe on bitcoin be able to exists long.

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March 14, 2018, 04:25:50 PM
 #69

It can be said worthless because of not believing about bitcoin that can be valuable in the future. It has the potential to grow in the future. The value of bitcoin is worth buying that now its rallying to recover the value. Whatever the article says, I believe on bitcoin be able to exists long.
Are you using an online translator? You're not making any sense
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May 29, 2018, 12:31:42 AM
 #70

I just stumbled upon this article that The Guardian published today, I think it's the best ever written on bitcoin, really good sum-up about blockchain and bitcoin: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/mar/05/bitcoin-is-based-on-the-blockchain-pipe-dream

If you are a bitcoin enthusiast, on the internet you will find multiple studies and analyzes that will convince you of the convenience of investing in bitcoin. If you are a bitcoin hater, you will also find thousands of articles that will support your position. It is a reality that the widest range of positions on any subject circulates freely on the Internet, that it will always be possible to find an argument or analysis that can support virtually any position, for which we must be very cautious before letting ourselves be convinced by the first positive or negative argument that we find on the internet.

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May 29, 2018, 06:43:19 AM
 #71

It can be said worthless because of not believing about bitcoin that can be valuable in the future. It has the potential to grow in the future. The value of bitcoin is worth buying that now its rallying to recover the value. Whatever the article says, I believe on bitcoin be able to exists long.
Are you using an online translator? You're not making any sense


Lol nice catch dude. I bet he is , anyways bitcoin is not worthless but instead it is verry important due to the fact that bitcoin is useful and has a lot of features not just a stand alone currency but also it can be an asset at the same time which means we can use it for buying and investing or trading.

That is the reason why bitcoin is not a worthless piece of coin. the author of this thread maybe an anti bitcoin or want bitcoin to go down so that he can take an advantage with it.  You know speculations can also make an effect to the price of bitcoin .

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May 29, 2018, 07:38:09 AM
 #72

It can be said worthless because of not believing about bitcoin that can be valuable in the future. It has the potential to grow in the future. The value of bitcoin is worth buying that now its rallying to recover the value. Whatever the article says, I believe on bitcoin be able to exists long.
Are you using an online translator? You're not making any sense
If I'm not making any sense so what's your point on this topic? Let me heard your voice and very worth opinion to read here in the forum. As far from what I know we have different point of view here.

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May 29, 2018, 07:53:49 AM
 #73

its funny that they are referring to the blockchain technology to be an over-hyped technology Cry

if they think some cryptocurrencies are overpriced, why not choose to use or invest in some coins their budgets will allow them because as far as I know projects do not set the price, its the market (us)!

Quote
This article would have been very good had it resurfaced a few years ago but unfortunately, today companies with real use of the blockchain for long-term use are developing their own blockchains as opposed to copy and paste of algorithms.
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May 29, 2018, 09:25:07 AM
 #74

Bitcoin is worth it not worthless. Because many people who are bought bitcoin last few years ago are earning a lot of money.
Many peolle change life because of the bitcoin from people who don't have to have a lot. People who say bitcoin is worthless because they don't have bitcoin and did not invest when the price is very low.

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May 29, 2018, 09:41:12 AM
 #75

I beg to disagree,bitcoin is not worthless because if so.. no one will invest,no one will take a risk in investing their money to a worthless coins.In fact me and my family invested some.

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May 29, 2018, 10:16:27 AM
 #76

Bitcoin is worth it not worthless. Because many people who are bought bitcoin last few years ago are earning a lot of money.
Many peolle change life because of the bitcoin from people who don't have to have a lot. People who say bitcoin is worthless because they don't have bitcoin and did not invest when the price is very low.
Of the many people, it certainly could have different reasons related to many things associated with bitcoin, one of them is investing or trading in it, and it because how widely they knew bitcoin or lack to deepened of all the things related to bitcoin.
Bitcoin is certainly is worthy, because from its very natural development., it can be got a very high popularity until getting a lot of welcomed from many people and certain countries because of the technology in it, also many benefits.
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