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 Author Topic: What is currency?  (Read 3229 times)
sublime5447
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 October 08, 2013, 10:03:59 PM

My argument is that currency is a measurement system to try and quantify value.

If currency is the measurement of value what is it's unit of measurement?

Every system of measurement on the planet depends on a unit of measurement.

weight      =  pounds
length      =  inch
work        =  joule
brightness = candles
time         = second
value        =  ?

What is a unit? "a quantity chosen as a standard in terms of which other quantities may be expressed."

Who chooses that standard? We do! people just start to all agree on a unit

The first thing people say is that value is subjective, but all of the units of measurement are a matter of opinion that we all share. What is subjective to the individual is not true of man kind in general. It may be true that a individual may not value food but it is not likely to ever be true that mankind would not value food.

So if currency is just a yardstick to measure value of real things it is just a tool, like a protractor, compass, tape measure but it has no lines on it. To give currency lines we have to all define and accept a unit of value.

I suggest 1 joule of work = 1 unit of currency

When we define a unit of currency it will no longer be subjective when we all believe something it becomes objective.

The only way to ever measure anything is against a point of reference.

This is what is says on wiki about money--

"Measure of value
Money acts as a standard measure and common denomination of trade. It is thus a basis for quoting and bargaining of prices. It is necessary for developing efficient accounting systems. But its most important usage is as a method for comparing the values of dissimilar objects."

There is no system of measurement that does not have a constant, not one of them no matter how subjective they may seem every system of measurement has a unit! The measure of value is no different the above statement is not true and will not be true until a unit of value is accepted.

 ▄▄▄▄        ▄▄████████▄▄    ▄▄████████████████▄▄ ▄████████████████████████▄███████████▀▀█████████████████████████▄   ▀█████████████████████████▄   ▀█████████████████████████▄   ▀██████████████████████▀   ▄█████████████████████▀   ▄██████████████████████▄  ▄██████████████████████████████████████████ ▀████████████████████████▀    ▀▀████████████████▀▀        ▀▀████████▀▀            ▀▀▀▀ ⬢⬢⬢⬢ ⬢⬢⬢⬢⬢⬢ ▄▄▄▄   ▄▄████████▄▄▄██████████▀▀▀█▀█▄██ ▀█████▀     ▀████▌   ▀▀▀      ██████▄           ███████▀         ████▀████▄     ▄▄████▀   ▀▀▄▄▄▄████▀▀       ▀▀▀▀██████████████████ ▄▄▄▄   ▄▄████████▄▄▄████████████████▄██████████▀▀  ▐█████████▀▀  ▄   ███████▀   ▄█▀   ▐████████▄▄█▀     █████▀█████▌ ▄▄▄ ▐████▀   ▀▀████████▀▀       ▀▀▀▀██████████████████ ▄▄▄▄   ▄▄████████▄▄▄███████▀   ▐████▄████████  ▄█████████████      ██████████████  ████████████████  ████████▀███████  ███████▀   ▀▀████████▀▀       ▀▀▀▀██████████████████ ▄▄▄▄   ▄▄██▀█▀███▄▄▄███▀▀▀ ▀ ▀▀█████▄██████ ████▄ ███████████ ▀▀▀▀ ▄███████████ ▄▄▄▄ ▀███████████ ████▀ █████▀███▄▄▄ ▄ ▄▄█████▀   ▀▀██▄█▄███▀▀       ▀▀▀▀██████████████████
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Ekaros
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 October 08, 2013, 11:45:54 PM

Weight = kilogram
length = meter
temperature = Kelvin

Use the SI-system...

Work or energy is sensible. Everything can be presented in it. Though it's very complex. And immaterial stuff is rather hard...

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johnyj
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 October 09, 2013, 12:08:47 AM

Value is very subjective, same thing never has the same value 10 years ago or in another country, it is changing constantly

sublime5447
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 October 09, 2013, 12:58:04 AM

Value is very subjective, same thing never has the same value 10 years ago or in another country, it is changing constantly

All units of measurement are very subjective, people said the same thing before they defined an inch. Length is very subjective or weight is very subjective or g force is very subjective... is all very much a matter of opinion, but when we all share the same opinion something cool happens it becomes a matter of fact length is no longer subjective when we all accept the unit of an inch and when we all accept a unit of the measure of value it will no longer be subjective.

 ▄▄▄▄        ▄▄████████▄▄    ▄▄████████████████▄▄ ▄████████████████████████▄███████████▀▀█████████████████████████▄   ▀█████████████████████████▄   ▀█████████████████████████▄   ▀██████████████████████▀   ▄█████████████████████▀   ▄██████████████████████▄  ▄██████████████████████████████████████████ ▀████████████████████████▀    ▀▀████████████████▀▀        ▀▀████████▀▀            ▀▀▀▀ ⬢⬢⬢⬢ ⬢⬢⬢⬢⬢⬢ ▄▄▄▄   ▄▄████████▄▄▄██████████▀▀▀█▀█▄██ ▀█████▀     ▀████▌   ▀▀▀      ██████▄           ███████▀         ████▀████▄     ▄▄████▀   ▀▀▄▄▄▄████▀▀       ▀▀▀▀██████████████████ ▄▄▄▄   ▄▄████████▄▄▄████████████████▄██████████▀▀  ▐█████████▀▀  ▄   ███████▀   ▄█▀   ▐████████▄▄█▀     █████▀█████▌ ▄▄▄ ▐████▀   ▀▀████████▀▀       ▀▀▀▀██████████████████ ▄▄▄▄   ▄▄████████▄▄▄███████▀   ▐████▄████████  ▄█████████████      ██████████████  ████████████████  ████████▀███████  ███████▀   ▀▀████████▀▀       ▀▀▀▀██████████████████ ▄▄▄▄   ▄▄██▀█▀███▄▄▄███▀▀▀ ▀ ▀▀█████▄██████ ████▄ ███████████ ▀▀▀▀ ▄███████████ ▄▄▄▄ ▀███████████ ████▀ █████▀███▄▄▄ ▄ ▄▄█████▀   ▀▀██▄█▄███▀▀       ▀▀▀▀██████████████████
sublime5447
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 October 09, 2013, 01:03:29 AM

Weight = kilogram
length = meter
temperature = Kelvin

Use the SI-system...

Work or energy is sensible. Everything can be presented in it. Though it's very complex. And immaterial stuff is rather hard...

I suggest 1 unit of currency = 1 unit of value = 1 joule of work.

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 October 09, 2013, 01:41:55 AM

I suggest 1 joule of work = 1 unit of currency

Every system of measurement on the planet depends on a unit of measurement.:
Wealth = Money

Value = irrelevant (eg. my 4 year old believed \$20 for 1 smarty was good value, and you know from his perspective at the time and place is arguably correct.)
i.e.Value is nothing but an opinion dependant of space, time and knowledge.

You have to rethink your idea.

While each human is capable of more or less creating the same magnitude of energy measured in joules it is not a relevant unit of measure, as that energy input is an inadequate unit of measure of value.
See   Labor theory of value
1 joule of work = 1 unit of labor

Wealth is what is to be measured, and money is the unit, currency is a symbolic representation of money.
Work is relative, a joule is in fact money; the application of 1 joule of work can be amplified through technology and or knowledge, or destroyed.

Putting the same energy into plowing land by hand -v- putting energy into plowing by oxen -v- putting energy into plowing via combine harvester will reveal exponentially greater outputs.

And the application of knowledge also amplifies the energy input. Eg: plowing in 90 deg angles to a slope and planting at the correct time is just knowledge but applied with the same work generates greater wealth.

Joules are not easily exchanged, they diminish over distance, and cant saved over time. So is not a good currency, it is a commodity.

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Snowfire
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 October 09, 2013, 03:18:41 AM

Currency is a system of circulating tokens of standardized denominations which, by consensus, is agreed to quantitate value in a relatively context-free manner (unlike coupons and subway tokens, which represent value only in very limited contexts.)

That is about as general and abstract as it gets--covering everything from tally sticks to kina shells to gold coins, paper money, and cryptocurrency.

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 October 09, 2013, 03:22:22 AM

Weight = kilogram
length = meter
temperature = Kelvin

Use the SI-system...

No

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
Foxpup
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 October 09, 2013, 05:27:43 AM

Use the SI-system...
You mean the Système International system?

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Ekaros
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 October 09, 2013, 03:48:28 PM

Use the SI-system...
You mean the Système International system?

Yes redundancy is great thing

SI-units are the correct way...

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 October 09, 2013, 07:18:44 PM

Use the SI-system...
You mean the Système International system?

Yes redundancy is great thing

SI-units are the correct way...

Is that what your government tells you?  Mine has been telling me the same thing, even to the point of requiring that it be taught in my school and forcing me to use it in the military.

The natural rise of the American Standard was haphazard and still has strange artifacts of history (such as the mile), but most of the measurements (particularly volume and weight) are base 2 (halves and/or doubles) and are much easier for actual humans beings to conceptualize without the aid of a computing device.  It will take nothing less than being conquored by a foreign power to stop Americans from teaching the AS system to their children and using in daily business.  There is a good reason that a measuring tape manufactured in China will have both Metric & American Standard printed upon them.  Americans will use both, but generally only use metric when forced to by circumstances, or when talking to Canadians.  American construction workers hate metric, and every young architect quickly learns to produce prints in AS, regardless as to how great the metric system is to his trade.

American cars have Km's printed upon speedometers as a matter of law, but they are small print because Americans don't want them.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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 October 09, 2013, 08:46:22 PM

American construction workers hate metric, and every young architect quickly learns to produce prints in AS, regardless as to how great the metric system is to his trade.

Slow down there, the metric system isn't a conspiracy, it based on units of 10, and it evolves from counting on 10 fingers, it is the dominant market choice and has outperformed every competing system since its inception in the late 1700,s . It uses logic as a way to connect similar values eg. 1cc (cubic centimeter) is equal to 1 gram of water.  1 square km = 10,000,000,000 square cm. And 0.0 degrees Celsius is the temperature at which water freezes, and 100 degrees Celsius at sea level is the temperature at which water boils, knowing that you can common sense the temperature space and volume.

It allows efficiencies in mental calculations that surpass any other system. You can convert between units by changing the name or scale as easily as moving a decimal place.

America would fall of the earth if it had to compete in a free market with the old imperial system, just be grateful your government holds ignorance as a virtue.

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 October 09, 2013, 10:11:21 PM

American construction workers hate metric, and every young architect quickly learns to produce prints in AS, regardless as to how great the metric system is to his trade.

Slow down there, the metric system isn't a conspiracy,

I didn't claim that it was a conspiracy.

Quote

it based on units of 10, and it evolves from counting on 10 fingers,

Again, I'm as familiar as anyone else is in the system.  I'm employed in a job that requires it's use.  I know what it's good for.

Quote

it is the dominant market choice and has outperformed every competing system since its inception in the late 1700,s .

This is false.  It's the dominate choice because Europe was so screwed up with slightly different versions of the Imperial System beforehand, and it's the dominate choice today because developing nations have a vested interests in conforming to their primary markets.  The domiance of computers help keep it in use, but it's far from a market based victory.  Most of the nations that employ it today were forced to by government edicts.

Quote

It uses logic as a way to connect similar values eg. 1cc (cubic centimeter) is equal to 1 gram of water.  1 square km = 10,000,000,000 square cm. And 0.0 degrees Celsius is the temperature at which water freezes, and 100 degrees Celsius at sea level is the temperature at which water boils, knowing that you can common sense the temperature space and volume.

And a pint is a pound of freshwater.  The major advancement of the Metric system was using base 10, which is good for mathmatics.  Like I said, AS is primarily a base 2 system, which is easier for the human mind to conceptualize withut calculators or pen and paper.  Notablely, however, caluclators didn't exist when the Metric system was in accendency; which is why it had to be forced upon most populations.  Although it did encourage the study of arithmatic among the masses.

Quote

It allows efficiencies in mental calculations that surpass any other system. You can convert between units by changing the name or scale as easily as moving a decimal place.

Which, pratically speaking, isn't a particularly widely used mental calculation, in the real world.  Think about it; while it's trivial for you to convert distances that you measure in centimeters (the width of a table, for example) to distances that you would travel in a car (in kilometers) how likely are the average perosn to ever do such a shift of scale outside of the context of a math class?  Yes, it would be very difficlut for me to change thes same scale in AS; moving from inches (or feet) to miles,  shifting between scales of measurements is not a regualr use of either system by common people.

Quote

America would fall of the earth if it had to compete in a free market with the old imperial system, just be grateful your government holds ignorance as a virtue.

America does compete with the "Imperial system", and every American child learns metric in school; but there are very good reasons that the American Standard dominates within the US itself.  One of which is that base 2 is easier to do practial calculations in your head in, beyond simple changes of scale.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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 October 09, 2013, 10:37:33 PM

BTW, in some markets the AS continues to dominate, even in Canada.  Such markets are usually local in nature.  One great example is the trade in bulk firewood.  The standard way to measure bulk firewood in the US and in Canada is by the cord. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cord_(unit) Historicly (and often legally) defined as a stacked volume of wood measuring 4 feet by 4 feet by 8 feet, or 128 cubic feet.  To this day, your government continues to recognize the cord as the standard bulk measurement of wood, while also continuing to discourage it's use, while encouraging the cubic meter.  (A measurement of volume that is, notably very close to a "face cord" which is usually one-quarter (half and half again, base 2) of a full cord)

The cord is the commonly used standard for bulk firewood in a great many European nations as well, that also officially use the metric system.

http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/mc-mc.nsf/eng/lm03963.html

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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 October 10, 2013, 12:24:27 AM

BTW, in some markets the AS continues to dominate, even in Canada.  Such markets are usually local in nature.  One great example is the trade in bulk firewood.  The standard way to measure bulk firewood in the US and in Canada is by the cord. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cord_(unit) Historicly (and often legally) defined as a stacked volume of wood measuring 4 feet by 4 feet by 8 feet, or 128 cubic feet.  To this day, your government continues to recognize the cord as the standard bulk measurement of wood, while also continuing to discourage it's use, while encouraging the cubic meter.  (A measurement of volume that is, notably very close to a "face cord" which is usually one-quarter (half and half again, base 2) of a full cord)

The cord is the commonly used standard for bulk firewood in a great many European nations as well, that also officially use the metric system.

http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/mc-mc.nsf/eng/lm03963.html
Canada is special, its metric but everything traded with the US is Imperial. It is literally the residential housing industry keeping imperial alive, most industries I work in are switching to metric, just to stay globally relevant.

The bottom line is, sure use whatever system you like, the best one will win in the end. Having been educated in metric only and working exclusively with metric for 10 years and switching to imperia and metric 15 years ago, I can say there are big productivity gains to be made in the use of metric alone.

The problem with fiat (a currency) isn't IS or AS, it is, the unit of measure must be fixed, and to the OP's point, Energy is a key commodity in wealth generation, it is a poor currency, not the fact that we have an International Standard for measuring other things.

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 October 10, 2013, 12:28:25 AM

A peice of shit could be currency if it was deemed to have value by society. Currency is really just a notion not a solid definitive object

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 October 10, 2013, 01:04:56 AM

BTW, in some markets the AS continues to dominate, even in Canada.  Such markets are usually local in nature.  One great example is the trade in bulk firewood.  The standard way to measure bulk firewood in the US and in Canada is by the cord. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cord_(unit) Historicly (and often legally) defined as a stacked volume of wood measuring 4 feet by 4 feet by 8 feet, or 128 cubic feet.  To this day, your government continues to recognize the cord as the standard bulk measurement of wood, while also continuing to discourage it's use, while encouraging the cubic meter.  (A measurement of volume that is, notably very close to a "face cord" which is usually one-quarter (half and half again, base 2) of a full cord)

The cord is the commonly used standard for bulk firewood in a great many European nations as well, that also officially use the metric system.

http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/mc-mc.nsf/eng/lm03963.html
Canada is special, its metric but everything traded with the US is Imperial. It is literally the residential housing industry keeping imperial alive, most industries I work in are switching to metric, just to stay globally relevant.

That's also not true.  And whatever industries that you work in are, by definition, of limited scope.  You can't rationally assume that your personal experiences are indidicative of the market as a whole, although I won't contest the point.

Quote

The bottom line is, sure use whatever system you like, the best one will win in the end. Having been educated in metric only and working exclusively with metric for 10 years and switching to imperia and metric 15 years ago, I can say there are big productivity gains to be made in the use of metric alone.

I suppose that would depend upon what industries we are talking about.  I'm sure that manufacturing for international markets would have an advantage in metric, simply because that market is larger.  Still, if that were universally true, then why does every car that I've ever owned have both metric and American standard parts, regardless of where it was made?  There are metric automotive tool sets that have oddball sizes (9.5 mm wrench, anyone) that are actually metric conversions of commonly used AS part sizes.  For the most part, Americans just have full sets of both AS and Metric, which is wasteful in some ways.  But we're Americans, so waste of resources is what we do.

EDIT:  For those who don't know, a 9.5 mm wrench is the same as a three-eights inch wrench.  Intended for a rather commonly used nut size for cars made in Japan, and to some degree cars made in Germany; for the simple fact that the size of nut is economicly and structurally ideal for it's use.  In part, because it's commonly used in the United States, and therefore mass produced to great economies of scale.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
HenryRomp
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Separation of currency and state.

 October 10, 2013, 01:13:15 AM

Of course we need a common standard for currency. Bitcoin is that standard. Before long, everbody, globally, will measure value in bitcoin. Sure, in places and at times people may use other things as currency, but the one global standard will of course always be bitcoin. Everybody will know what a soda costs in bitcoin and what a loaf of bread costs in bitcoin and what a house costs in bitcoin, and it will of course be very stable once it has driven all other currencies into the ground. Right now it's very difficult to keep track of things because there is no currency in existence that isn't being manipulated by some group or another to such a degree that it's no longer useful as a standard.

A properly secured wallet with bitcoin is in my opinion the safest, most secure, best all-around bet for holding wealth at this moment in history. Go ahead, call me crazy. They've been calling me crazy since 2013.
https://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2FDBDDB5A65EF399
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Johnny Bitcoinseed
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Johnny Bitcoinseed

 October 10, 2013, 04:37:58 PM

A peice of shit could be currency if it was deemed to have value by society. Currency is really just a notion not a solid definitive object

That carrot you ate today was probably grown from shit.  A good chance it was cow manure or pig, chicken, etc.

Shit is very valuable to the farms that grow your food - and food is more valuable than money - so don't disparage shit with your mouth full! :-)

Sincerely I am, Johnny BitcoinSeed .com
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 October 10, 2013, 09:29:19 PM

Of course we need a common standard for currency. Bitcoin is that standard. Before long, everbody, globally, will measure value in bitcoin. Sure, in places and at times people may use other things as currency, but the one global standard will of course always be bitcoin. Everybody will know what a soda costs in bitcoin and what a loaf of bread costs in bitcoin and what a house costs in bitcoin, and it will of course be very stable once it has driven all other currencies into the ground. Right now it's very difficult to keep track of things because there is no currency in existence that isn't being manipulated by some group or another to such a degree that it's no longer useful as a standard.

I'm not sure that I agree with this, and I'm a long running bitcoin bull.  It might happen, but I would think that before any particular society were to abandon their local fiat currency and commit the work necessary to both learn about bitcoin and price goods locally in bitcoin, that local fiat has to have some kind of crisis of confidence.  I can see this happening in many developing nations rather without much additional motivation than what the recent history has provided; but as to places with a long history of a well respected central banking system (I.e. The US, UK, Germany before the Euro, not sure about the Euro now) I doubt that even a minor crisis of confidence would motivate even a small minority of the general pubic to trade bitcoin in meatspace for a loaf of bread.  Certainly, so long as Bitcoin stands the test of time, such a crisis must come for all fiat; but I would consider it unlikely to occur in my own lifetime.  That is, so long as the US doesn't erupt in another civil war; which at this point is still a low, but rising, risk factor IMHO.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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