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Author Topic: Brand new kind virtual currency - CAPTCHA coin  (Read 7300 times)
mxmz.in
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October 15, 2013, 11:00:52 PM
 #41

The following design is possible:

1) miner ONE (human) makes a captcha and the client app submits it to a pool server
2) miner TWO (human) gets a random captcha from a pool server and submits back the answer
3) random p2p clients (human) get both the original captcha and the answer and verify that the answer is correct

4) if the answer is correct a block is created and miners ONE and TWO get a reward
5) p2p clients also get a small reward but for just verifying (kinda transaction processing), regardless of whether the answer was correct and their intention is to keep the blockchain healthy as only then their earnings make sense

* depending on how many p2p clients verify the answer the number of confirmations limits the coin supply processing speed and security
* pool server is a p2p node in the network
* a captcha can be anything, no software will understand it

the coin should be called HumanCoin
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October 16, 2013, 12:57:55 AM
 #42

This seems terrible. Isn't this like Primecoin? But instead of the scientific output being mathematically interesting prime number chains, the output is millions of solved CAPTCHAs for spammers to post Viagra links on Wordpress blogs?
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October 16, 2013, 01:32:57 AM
 #43

This seems terrible. Isn't this like Primecoin? But instead of the scientific output being mathematically interesting prime number chains, the output is millions of solved CAPTCHAs for spammers to post Viagra links on Wordpress blogs?

People don't seem to get it...
That if you can make humans solve boring CAPTCHAs to mine...
Well, you can replace that with ANY human computer activity...
The whole idea would be to make it an interesting human activity...
One chess move, one poker hand, interaction with a virtual world, etc...

Why does "mining" have to be 100% auto-pilot experience best done by clusters and botnets...
Because Devs are too lazy to break out of the Bitcoin Mindset.

As for primes, women are hot for primes... check out Girls Gone Prime.
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October 16, 2013, 01:38:46 AM
 #44

I would prefer it to be game coin, play games, kill boss and get coin. Smiley

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October 16, 2013, 01:53:42 AM
 #45

This seems terrible. Isn't this like Primecoin? But instead of the scientific output being mathematically interesting prime number chains, the output is millions of solved CAPTCHAs for spammers to post Viagra links on Wordpress blogs?

People don't seem to get it...
That if you can make humans solve boring CAPTCHAs to mine...
Well, you can replace that with ANY human computer activity...
The whole idea would be to make it an interesting human activity...
One chess move, one poker hand, interaction with a virtual world, etc...

Why does "mining" have to be 100% auto-pilot experience best done by clusters and botnets...
Because Devs are too lazy to break out of the Bitcoin Mindset.

As for primes, women are hot for primes... check out Girls Gone Prime.


One of the "aims" of Chronokings is for it to be Human Mineable .

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=262599.0

although, maybe eventually, it will be bots against bots ..

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gatra
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October 16, 2013, 03:58:05 AM
 #46

The following design is possible:

1) miner ONE (human) makes a captcha and the client app submits it to a pool server
2) miner TWO (human) gets a random captcha from a pool server and submits back the answer
3) random p2p clients (human) get both the original captcha and the answer and verify that the answer is correct

4) if the answer is correct a block is created and miners ONE and TWO get a reward
5) p2p clients also get a small reward but for just verifying (kinda transaction processing), regardless of whether the answer was correct and their intention is to keep the blockchain healthy as only then their earnings make sense

* depending on how many p2p clients verify the answer the number of confirmations limits the coin supply processing speed and security
* pool server is a p2p node in the network
* a captcha can be anything, no software will understand it

the coin should be called HumanCoin

but if miner ONE posts the captcha he just made to a forum, so miner TWO can find it and solve it effortlessly, then modified clients could do this broadcasting of solutions and later submission of answers in an automated way. Notice that these bots do not solve the captcha, they don't need to know how to solve it, just publish and resubmit the solutions. Miner ONE and TWO are the same person, or miner ONE gives the answer to miner TWO for a small % of the $.
One of the strengths of the bitcoin protocol is that an 'evil' modified client (node) has no way to cheat.


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October 16, 2013, 05:44:54 AM
 #47

You do realize that you can pay third world people to solve captchas for you at the price of about $1 per thousand, right?

This is not a problem. Why someone will work for someone else, if he can win more if works for yourself? You will not find workers, except you pay more, than is your profit Smiley

Bad idea. Next?

No more computer mining my friend, no more easy profit, I'm sorry for you, next Wink

Looks interesting . Watching .

tiny rick !
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mxmz.in
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October 16, 2013, 09:18:56 AM
 #48

The following design is possible:

1) miner ONE (human) makes a captcha and the client app submits it to a pool server
2) miner TWO (human) gets a random captcha from a pool server and submits back the answer
3) random p2p clients (human) get both the original captcha and the answer and verify that the answer is correct

4) if the answer is correct a block is created and miners ONE and TWO get a reward
5) p2p clients also get a small reward but for just verifying (kinda transaction processing), regardless of whether the answer was correct and their intention is to keep the blockchain healthy as only then their earnings make sense

* depending on how many p2p clients verify the answer the number of confirmations limits the coin supply processing speed and security
* pool server is a p2p node in the network
* a captcha can be anything, no software will understand it

the coin should be called HumanCoin

but if miner ONE posts the captcha he just made to a forum, so miner TWO can find it and solve it effortlessly, then modified clients could do this broadcasting of solutions and later submission of answers in an automated way. Notice that these bots do not solve the captcha, they don't need to know how to solve it, just publish and resubmit the solutions. Miner ONE and TWO are the same person, or miner ONE gives the answer to miner TWO for a small % of the $.
One of the strengths of the bitcoin protocol is that an 'evil' modified client (node) has no way to cheat.

miner ONE submits to the network, he doesn't know who gets this catpcha later.
miner TWO is randomly selected and the protocol doesn't allow it to be the same miner who created the captcha.
The captcha for solving is also randomly selected from a long queue of previously submitted captchas. That means that not every miner who creates a captcha gets a reward, if his captcha will not ever be selected. Its like currently not every miner solves the block. Basically, the more captchas you create the bigger chances you get for your captcha to be selected.

if miner ONE systematically broadcasts his answers he makes the coin worthless, its like currently the pools avoid getting too big, coz they want the coin to be strong. Also, some monitoring can be done by people and if they find malicious activity they get all of the malicious user rewards.

and if only few coins are created with cheating that doesn't stop the system from functioning as the transactions get signed by other p2p nodes, its like in real life some fake money do not mean much
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October 17, 2013, 10:43:36 AM
 #49

I just sort of feel that this is huge waste of human time - which is probably more valuable than any currency. I admit Bitcoin is a colossal waste of electricity - but at least the network can be upheld by machines without a lot of human intervention. (If every mining rig was using renewable energy though - it would be amazing!)

But using my most precious resource - time - as a POS/POW in a cryptocurrency is not going to fly with anyone but slaves/prisoners, or maybe dirt-poor countries where it's a good hourly...

If it were gamified somehow - then you've got an idea. Make it sudoku puzzles or word scrambles. Or why not just make the currency contribute BOINC-style (but with humans) to proof-reading scanned OCR books?
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October 17, 2013, 10:55:19 AM
 #50

The following design is possible:

1) miner ONE (human) makes a captcha and the client app submits it to a pool server
2) miner TWO (human) gets a random captcha from a pool server and submits back the answer
3) random p2p clients (human) get both the original captcha and the answer and verify that the answer is correct

4) if the answer is correct a block is created and miners ONE and TWO get a reward
5) p2p clients also get a small reward but for just verifying (kinda transaction processing), regardless of whether the answer was correct and their intention is to keep the blockchain healthy as only then their earnings make sense

1) Botpool 1 generates a huge number of captchas and submits them to the pool server
1a) It also passes all of the generated images and solutions to botpool 2
2) Botpool 2 repeatedly requests captchas from the pool server. If the image matches one it already has from botpool 1, it submits the correct answer, otherwise it just burns it and requests the next.
3) Some poor sods have the job of verifying all this bot generated work for almost no reward

Computers could generate and match these images so fast that no human actors could possibly compete.

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October 17, 2013, 10:56:37 AM
 #51

I just sort of feel that this is huge waste of human time - which is probably more valuable than any currency. I admit Bitcoin is a colossal waste of electricity - but at least the network can be upheld by machines without a lot of human intervention. (If every mining rig was using renewable energy though - it would be amazing!)

If every mining rig was using renewable energy ... that is renewable energy that could be used for something else instead, reducing the use of non-renewable energy. The energy wastage is the same either way, as long as there is some other way of using the renewable energy.

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mxmz.in
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October 17, 2013, 12:11:47 PM
 #52

The following design is possible:

1) miner ONE (human) makes a captcha and the client app submits it to a pool server
2) miner TWO (human) gets a random captcha from a pool server and submits back the answer
3) random p2p clients (human) get both the original captcha and the answer and verify that the answer is correct

4) if the answer is correct a block is created and miners ONE and TWO get a reward
5) p2p clients also get a small reward but for just verifying (kinda transaction processing), regardless of whether the answer was correct and their intention is to keep the blockchain healthy as only then their earnings make sense

1) Botpool 1 generates a huge number of captchas and submits them to the pool server
1a) It also passes all of the generated images and solutions to botpool 2
2) Botpool 2 repeatedly requests captchas from the pool server. If the image matches one it already has from botpool 1, it submits the correct answer, otherwise it just burns it and requests the next.
3) Some poor sods have the job of verifying all this bot generated work for almost no reward

Computers could generate and match these images so fast that no human actors could possibly compete.

This can be avoided easily:
1) to submit and answer captchas you need to register and the submission rate is limited
2) coins could vest and if malicious activity is found out then all non-vested coins get confiscated
3) when miner 2 gives a wrong answer the verifiers mark him as untrusted
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October 17, 2013, 12:15:46 PM
 #53

The following design is possible:

1) miner ONE (human) makes a captcha and the client app submits it to a pool server
2) miner TWO (human) gets a random captcha from a pool server and submits back the answer
3) random p2p clients (human) get both the original captcha and the answer and verify that the answer is correct

4) if the answer is correct a block is created and miners ONE and TWO get a reward
5) p2p clients also get a small reward but for just verifying (kinda transaction processing), regardless of whether the answer was correct and their intention is to keep the blockchain healthy as only then their earnings make sense

1) Botpool 1 generates a huge number of captchas and submits them to the pool server
1a) It also passes all of the generated images and solutions to botpool 2
2) Botpool 2 repeatedly requests captchas from the pool server. If the image matches one it already has from botpool 1, it submits the correct answer, otherwise it just burns it and requests the next.
3) Some poor sods have the job of verifying all this bot generated work for almost no reward

Computers could generate and match these images so fast that no human actors could possibly compete.

This can be avoided easily:
1) to submit and answer captchas you need to register and the submission rate is limited
2) coins could vest and if malicious activity is found out then all non-vested coins get confiscated
3) when miner 2 gives a wrong answer the verifiers mark him as untrusted

They are botpools, they have multiple connections, so submission rate limits aren't going to work.
You can't dump anyone who gives a wrong answer, humans frequently fail captcha, and even if you do dump one bot, they can just cycle to a new connection.
The only human element required would be creating new accounts and feeding those details into the botpools.
Even ignoring the answering aspect, the first botpool could create captchas, and feed them in through multiple accounts, far faster than any human could, and just take that part of the payout. The moment your network started, 90%+ of the captchas could be computer generated, in which case the second botpool is almost guaranteed to get a captcha it already knows the answer for.
The system would fail because the human verification step would be orders of magnitude too slow.
To make it work, you would have to make that verification step the key point.
(Although at that point, botpool 3 would step in and do verifications for all those captchas it already knows the answer for)

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October 17, 2013, 03:44:02 PM
 #54


This entire discussion is predicated on the Bitcoin Mentality...
That every PC in the fucking world, friendly or malicious...
Is ENTITLED to a connection, ENTITLED to mine, ENTITLED to manipulate.

That will change... there should be at least 2 levels of entitlement:

(1)  Using the wallet = everyone.

(2)  Mining and rewards = some rules apply

There are now 100s of different security devices at trivial cost...
One can use human input + security devices anonymously to enforce #2...
This is all coming, but people have Bitcoin Blinders on.

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October 17, 2013, 03:55:25 PM
 #55

Check out http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=cpu_mining

So far is has been working pretty well and is surprisingly popular. It does not need powerful expensive machines even, a Raspberry Pi or a Beaglebone could do it nicely...

-MarkM-

Browser-launched Crossfire client now online (select CrossCiv server for Galactic  Milieu)
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October 18, 2013, 12:36:38 AM
 #56

Check out http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=cpu_mining

So far is has been working pretty well and is surprisingly popular. It does not need powerful expensive machines even, a Raspberry Pi or a Beaglebone could do it nicely...

-MarkM-


Yes, that's the way to go... Satoshi feared megapools, BotNets, clusters, etc = Coin Rapers.

Right now in pre-release there is Hunter Coin which relies on a virtual game space...
And GridCoin which has blocks ranging from 5-175...
Only people running BOINC (integrated with the GridCoin wallet) qualify for the big blocks.

These will be interesting to watch...
Also, the first coin to link a security fob/USB to miner/pc will be non-human-resistant.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=security+fob&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=RoFgUrCxIeTh4APVvYHwAg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1160&bih=889&dpr=1

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