Public Discussion - escrow dispute - greendots & Redblue

[DannyHamilton]

It appears that one of the two parties to an escrow contract I'm holding is attempting to damage my reputation by getting me to release escrow to them without holding up their end of the deal:

thanks! I'll send it now and he will respond to u in some hours.

Hey, It seems Greendots is a scammer, can you refund the escrow amount to

-address removed-   Thanks

Both of them sent directly to me and attempted to leave the other one out of the conversation.

It appears that the escrow must now enter a phase of dispute resolution.

I've opened this thread in the "Scam Accusation" section to have a public conversation about this issue.  Please direct all conversation regarding this issue to this thread.

greendots, please provide me with proof that you have sent it as indicated.

If you are unable to provide verifiable proof within the next 48 hours, and nobody has any other objections the escrow will be released to Redblue at 10:30:00 CDT on 2013-10-13.

Here are the parts of the contract that both parties agreed to that are being enforced with this request for proof and statement of release to Redblue on failure:

- snip -
If the {bitcoin} provider claims he has not received valid payment within 24 hours of funding the escrow address, and there is no response from the bitcoin receiver, then escrow will be released back to the {bitcoin} seller. To add, change, or remove the release conditions, both the buyer and seller must communicate their acceptance of the terms with the escrow holder.

BITCOIN RECEIVER PLEASE NOTICE:
___________________
Under the default conditions the only protection provided to the receiver is the ability to refuse to make payment until better conditions have been negotiated.  If the {bitcoin} receiver makes payment with out first negotiating and confirming other conditions, there is an opportunity for the {bitcoin} provider to lie and claim that they never received payment.  The burden of proof would then be on the bitcoin receiver to prove that the bitcoin provider did indeed receive payment.
- snip -

I'll post the full original contract with my gpg signature here if anyone requests it.


Bold added above for emphasis.

Words in {} are not literally in the original contract but are implied from context.  They've been added here to clarify the meaning since the context is missing. Now that I've identified this potential for ambiguity, my standard contract form has been updated to include these added words in any future contracts

[Atruk]

I'll post the full original contract with my gpg signature here if anyone requests it.

May as well post the GPG signed contract. It's kind of the thing that people are being held to.

[DannyHamilton]

I'll post the full original contract with my gpg signature here if anyone requests it.

May as well post the GPG signed contract. It's kind of the thing that people are being held to.

I'm doing what I can to protect as much of both party's privacy as possible.  If they want to reveal the details of their transaction, they are welcome to do so.  They've both received (and agreed to) the contract and if either of them want it to be part of the public record, they have the opportunity to post it here themselves.

First, I'm giving both parties an opportunity to make this right without making their entire interaction public if it isn't necessary.

If both sides continue to dispute the current status and we're unable to come to an amicable resolution I may post the entire contract. If necessary I'll post the entire PM history as well. At the moment, I don't see any benefit to satisfying the idle curiosity of bored forum members.

I'm giving greendots an opportunity to explain what has occurred and provide proof that he held up his end of the deal.

The portion of the contract that has been posted is just there to explain why the burden of proof is currently on greendots and not on Redblue so that it's clear that I'm not engaging in favoritism for one party over the other.

[Welsh]

Hopefully, you can get both of them to read this thread and get them to communicate within to each other with you involved. Maybe, you should send them a message and link them to this thread. Hopefully this will be resolved.

Also, read this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=283954.0 It's another user which has been scammed by Greendots so it appears. They have supplied some proof and conversations.

[DannyHamilton]

- snip -
Maybe, you should send them a message and link them to this thread.
- snip -

I did that immediately upon creating this thread.

Hopefully this will be resolved.

Hopefully.

Also, read this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=283954.0 It's another user which has been scammed by Greendots so it appears. They have supplied some proof and conversations.

Each transaction needs to be handled individually. If we assume that the person who attempted a scam in the past is the one attempting the scam in the present, then we open up an opportunity for people to easily perpetrate fraud against anyone who has ever been accused of a scam and unable to properly defend themselves.

Perhaps Redblue saw that thread that you linked and intentionally engaged in a transaction with greendots because they knew that other thread would poison people's minds in his favor when he tried to scam greendots?  I'm not saying that happened.  Not at all.  I'm just saying that we have to be aware of the possibility and that the resolution of this transaction has to stand on its own without being influenced by the other transactions that either party has engaged in previously.

[Welsh]

Each transaction needs to be handled individually. If we assume that the person who attempted a scam in the past is the one attempting the scam in the present, then we open up an opportunity for people to easily perpetrate fraud against anyone who has ever been accused of a scam and unable to properly defend themselves.

Perhaps Redblue saw that thread that you linked and intentionally engaged in a transaction with greendots because they knew that other thread would poison people's minds in his favor when he tried to scam greendots?  I'm not saying that happened.  Not at all.  I'm just saying that we have to be aware of the possibility and that the resolution of this transaction has to stand on its own without being influenced by the other transactions that either party has engaged in previously.

That's a good point. I was just linking to another source. Obviously, it's just a indicator and maybe shouldn't be involved with this case. Let's see what they have to say about it. Greendots responded to the last accusation, so hopefully he/she will do again.

[DannyHamilton]

According to the profile page of greendots, he has logged in since this thread was started.

A PM was send sent directly to greendots after this thread was created and before his most recent login alerting him to the existence of this thread.

greendots had been made aware prior to the start of the transaction that he was involved in an Escrow transaction, and that the escrow contract would require him to be involved in dispute resolution if he didn't receive the bitcoins within 24 hours of the escrow address being funded.

The complete lack of any communication from greendots since the dispute was initiated leaves me with only one choice.  I must release the bitcoins from escrow back to the person that funded the escrow.

I sincerely apologize to greendots if there is some legitimate reason that he has been unable to participate in the dispute resolution, but at this time I am obligated to perform escrow release as per the terms of the contract.

It seems odd that greendots would expect Redblue to "respond to u in some hours" if he hadn't sent as required, and it seems odd that he didn't specifically request release of escrow (as might be expected from someone attempting a scam).  These facts give the appearance that he actually sent as expected and is just patiently waiting on release of the escrow.

Regardless, at this time the escrow will be released back to Redblue.

[Baitty]

According to the profile page of greendots, he has logged in since this thread was started.

A PM was send sent directly to greendots after this thread was created and before his most recent login alerting him to the existence of this thread.

greendots had been made aware prior to the start of the transaction that he was involved in an Escrow transaction, and that the escrow contract would require him to be involved in dispute resolution if he didn't receive the bitcoins within 24 hours of the escrow address being funded.

The complete lack of any communication from greendots since the dispute was initiated leaves me with only one choice.  I must release the bitcoins from escrow back to the person that funded the escrow.

I sincerely apologize to greendots if there is some legitimate reason that he has been unable to participate in the dispute resolution, but at this time I am obligated to perform escrow release as per the terms of the contract.

It seems odd that greendots would expect Redblue to "respond to u in some hours" if he hadn't sent as required, and it seems odd that he didn't specifically request release of escrow (as might be expected from someone attempting a scam).  These facts give the appearance that he actually sent as expected and is just patiently waiting on release of the escrow.

Regardless, at this time the escrow will be released back to Redblue.

You handled it pretty professionally. I'll give you that.

[greendots]

I've been out of my account a few days and notice all this. Yes i intended to trade with him.. but didn't know someone would guess my damn password. Nevertheless its been changed and please. give his btc back. He's the rightful owner and if he still wants to trade he should pm me.

[greendots]

I've been out of my account a few days and notice all this. Yes i intended to trade with him.. but didn't know someone would guess my damn password. Nevertheless its been changed and please. give his btc back. He's the rightful owner and if he still wants to trade he should pm me.

and as for the other member. I was not logged in the time he mentioned.. i.e maybe the forum scammer got him too.  but IDK i'm researching that as well. I don't leave burdens around and would be more than happy to compensate the other user in the other thread. IF HE PMS ME BACK Cheers.

[TheWizzerd]

I've been out of my account a few days and notice all this. Yes i intended to trade with him.. but didn't know someone would guess my damn password. Nevertheless its been changed and please. give his btc back. He's the rightful owner and if he still wants to trade he should pm me.

and as for the other member. I was not logged in the time he mentioned.. i.e maybe the forum scammer got him too.  but IDK i'm researching that as well. I don't leave burdens around and would be more than happy to compensate the other user in the other thread. IF HE PMS ME BACK Cheers.

If that 'other member' you speak of is me.. I have messaged you numerous times, and there is no researching to be done. You took the MoneyPak.. I requested .9 BTC. You cleaned out the MoneyPak, and my address never got fed the .9 BTC I rightfully deserved. So start compensating fucker.

[greendots]

I've been out of my account a few days and notice all this. Yes i intended to trade with him.. but didn't know someone would guess my damn password. Nevertheless its been changed and please. give his btc back. He's the rightful owner and if he still wants to trade he should pm me.

and as for the other member. I was not logged in the time he mentioned.. i.e maybe the forum scammer got him too.  but IDK i'm researching that as well. I don't leave burdens around and would be more than happy to compensate the other user in the other thread. IF HE PMS ME BACK Cheers.

If that 'other member' you speak of is me.. I have messaged you numerous times, and there is no researching to be done. You took the MoneyPak.. I requested .9 BTC. You cleaned out the MoneyPak, and my address never got fed the .9 BTC I rightfully deserved. So start compensating fucker.

I asked Tomatocage to come to this thread and if he wishes he will. I have just Pm'ed you back but i'm going to make public what I wrote. Obvious I have nothing to hide.

I am reading messages on what happened. Tomatocage and John K knows what happened. They told me i got hacked. Nevertheless I agreed with them that i would seek out who got scammed and they linked me to you.. plus the past posts. Firstly.. I never exchange on here in direct PM> I'm always on OTC exchanging only or LBC. SO I would like to look this further and reimburse you if you don't mind.

Now as much as I want to be an ass about being hacked.. I can't. SO save your negative words.

[TheWizzerd]

You had 3 days to cry wolf. And now, you pop in. What does that say? What is negative. Is I have a client on my ass that his project is not accessible via my VPS since I was unable to pay for it with the BTC I was expected to have.

[greendots]

You had 3 days to cry wolf. And now, you pop in. What does that say? What is negative. Is I have a client on my ass that his project is not accessible via my VPS since I was unable to pay for it with the BTC I was expected to have.

NO quite obvious I found out today. Very obvious. I found out while on vacation as a matter of fact. Now DannyHamilton knows i transact on OTC so thats why it was suspicious. SO save your words while this is fixed and mods are watching as we speak. Thanks.