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Author Topic: [UPDT]Selling a bitcoin bond at GLBSE at 95% value, maturation date December 1st  (Read 7985 times)
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July 24, 2011, 09:16:16 AM
 #21

The only way I will not deliver is a combination of two events:
1. My BTC wallet will get hacked (unlikely, I'm securing my bitcoins rather well, on a separate dedicated machine). If this were to happen at the current rate, I would just buy the 100 BTC I owe people and pay everyone back, because my reputation and credibility is worth to me more than $1500.
2. If Event #1 (My bitcoins were stolen) were to happen and BTC vs USD will rise "too much" that the cost of buying back the lost BTC would be too much (my personal subjective value of "too much"), then I will default on the loan. For example, if 1 BTC would be equal $10,000 by December 1st, and my wallet was stolen, then I will not buy back BTC for $1,000,000, but rather file for bankruptcy.

What about 3) Pretend to have my BTC wallet hacked and keep everything? 

Didn't we just have a major exchange pretend to be hacked? 

I'm into creating universes, smiting people, writing holy books and listening to prayers.
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July 24, 2011, 10:22:33 AM
 #22

The only way I will not deliver is a combination of two events:
1. My BTC wallet will get hacked (unlikely, I'm securing my bitcoins rather well, on a separate dedicated machine). If this were to happen at the current rate, I would just buy the 100 BTC I owe people and pay everyone back, because my reputation and credibility is worth to me more than $1500.
2. If Event #1 (My bitcoins were stolen) were to happen and BTC vs USD will rise "too much" that the cost of buying back the lost BTC would be too much (my personal subjective value of "too much"), then I will default on the loan. For example, if 1 BTC would be equal $10,000 by December 1st, and my wallet was stolen, then I will not buy back BTC for $1,000,000, but rather file for bankruptcy.

What about 3) Pretend to have my BTC wallet hacked and keep everything? 

Didn't we just have a major exchange pretend to be hacked? 

From your perspective, that is a definite possibility, I was just telling you things from my perspective.
If you don't want to risk it, you don't have to buy the bond.

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
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July 24, 2011, 02:38:26 PM
 #23

Are you guys actually considering loaning BTC to a guy whose username has the word "ripper" in it?

LOL  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

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Ben Walsh (beamer)
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July 24, 2011, 03:07:39 PM
 #24

Not considering ... I have.

If you look at the current depth and trade history for Bond-RonGross on GLBSE, you will see the risk which others have attached to loaning to ripper234/Ron and see others already loaned too.

PM me if you have any difficulties / questions on using GLBSE - I will be happy to guide you.

Are you guys actually considering loaning BTC to a guy whose username has the word "ripper" in it?

LOL  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

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July 24, 2011, 03:57:38 PM
 #25

It seems like there should be some value just in properly creating the mechanics of a bond. I would think there would be a way to integrate it with GLBSE, not by investing with companies but by having the bond payout be in shares at market value for a GLBSE security.

My suggestion would be to use the money from your bond to set up a website that handles creating bonds.

I don't understand. What's missing with the bond in the way I created it?

The way you set up the bond, you listed it on GLBSE and investors bought it. Simple enough, but it requires knowing how to list things on GLBSE. If I understand correctly, the idea proposed here is to provide a simpler way for people to list bonds, you provide a front-end service that takes their information, then lists it as an asset on GLBSE where investors purchase it. You could ask for some cut of the money, and give some sort of guarantee if the bond-holder defaults, giving less risk to the investors at the price of a lower reward. GLBSE is pretty much anonymous, your service would collect all the personal information on people asking for a loan, even get a credit score.

I think GLBSE is set up to have assets and subassets, using subassets reduces the cost of multiple listings (I am not sure, but I think the asset costs 2.5 bitcoin and subassets are free?) so you could have main asset Bond, and subassets Bond.PersonA and Bond.PersonB.

GLBSE already has a web UI, and I imagine it will improve over time. I don't see much value of creating a 3rd party service that will provide just a wrapper of GLBSE.

Creating the bond cost 0.5 BTC (I also got charged an extra 0.5 BTC on some operation, not sure exactly which ... I'd really want to see a charge history feature in GLBSE)

Part of the purpose of this exercise was to learn how to use GLBSE, and make it profitable enough for other people to learn it as well.

BTW, you can see the trade and bid history of my bond here.

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
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Ron Gross


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July 24, 2011, 03:59:27 PM
 #26

If you look at the current depth and trade history for Bond-RonGross on GLBSE, you will see the risk which others have attached to loaning to ripper234/Ron and see others already loaned too.

Are you guys actually considering loaning BTC to a guy whose username has the word "ripper" in it?

LOL  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Note that in theory I could create fake accounts and buy my bonds via that fake account, to simulate demand.
I'm not doing any of that, but it's possible.

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
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July 24, 2011, 04:20:46 PM
 #27

Are you guys actually considering loaning BTC to a guy whose username has the word "ripper" in it?

LOL  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
Id rather lend money to the homeless guys hanging out in central park.
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July 25, 2011, 12:17:22 PM
 #28

It seems like there should be some value just in properly creating the mechanics of a bond. I would think there would be a way to integrate it with GLBSE, not by investing with companies but by having the bond payout be in shares at market value for a GLBSE security.

My suggestion would be to use the money from your bond to set up a website that handles creating bonds.

I don't understand. What's missing with the bond in the way I created it?

The way you set up the bond, you listed it on GLBSE and investors bought it. Simple enough, but it requires knowing how to list things on GLBSE. If I understand correctly, the idea proposed here is to provide a simpler way for people to list bonds, you provide a front-end service that takes their information, then lists it as an asset on GLBSE where investors purchase it. You could ask for some cut of the money, and give some sort of guarantee if the bond-holder defaults, giving less risk to the investors at the price of a lower reward. GLBSE is pretty much anonymous, your service would collect all the personal information on people asking for a loan, even get a credit score.

I think GLBSE is set up to have assets and subassets, using subassets reduces the cost of multiple listings (I am not sure, but I think the asset costs 2.5 bitcoin and subassets are free?) so you could have main asset Bond, and subassets Bond.PersonA and Bond.PersonB.

GLBSE already has a web UI, and I imagine it will improve over time. I don't see much value of creating a 3rd party service that will provide just a wrapper of GLBSE.

Creating the bond cost 0.5 BTC (I also got charged an extra 0.5 BTC on some operation, not sure exactly which ... I'd really want to see a charge history feature in GLBSE)

Part of the purpose of this exercise was to learn how to use GLBSE, and make it profitable enough for other people to learn it as well.

BTW, you can see the trade and bid history of my bond here.

Yes GLBSE has a web interface, but GLBSE itself is really just a platform, Peter is correct in saying that the best thing to do would be to build a front end just for bonds, collecting the details just as Peter said.

We've got a command line client which is in the process of being turned into a app-usable library, so you wouldn't be building a "wrapper" for GLBSE, you'd be adding value.

To top it off BitcoinGlobal(the company that owns GLBSE) can partially subsidise with BTC some of the development of such a system and offer the subdomain bonds.glbse.com if anyone is interested.

Nefario.

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July 25, 2011, 01:07:21 PM
 #29

It seems like there should be some value just in properly creating the mechanics of a bond. I would think there would be a way to integrate it with GLBSE, not by investing with companies but by having the bond payout be in shares at market value for a GLBSE security.

My suggestion would be to use the money from your bond to set up a website that handles creating bonds.

I don't understand. What's missing with the bond in the way I created it?

The way you set up the bond, you listed it on GLBSE and investors bought it. Simple enough, but it requires knowing how to list things on GLBSE. If I understand correctly, the idea proposed here is to provide a simpler way for people to list bonds, you provide a front-end service that takes their information, then lists it as an asset on GLBSE where investors purchase it. You could ask for some cut of the money, and give some sort of guarantee if the bond-holder defaults, giving less risk to the investors at the price of a lower reward. GLBSE is pretty much anonymous, your service would collect all the personal information on people asking for a loan, even get a credit score.

I think GLBSE is set up to have assets and subassets, using subassets reduces the cost of multiple listings (I am not sure, but I think the asset costs 2.5 bitcoin and subassets are free?) so you could have main asset Bond, and subassets Bond.PersonA and Bond.PersonB.

GLBSE already has a web UI, and I imagine it will improve over time. I don't see much value of creating a 3rd party service that will provide just a wrapper of GLBSE.

Creating the bond cost 0.5 BTC (I also got charged an extra 0.5 BTC on some operation, not sure exactly which ... I'd really want to see a charge history feature in GLBSE)

Part of the purpose of this exercise was to learn how to use GLBSE, and make it profitable enough for other people to learn it as well.

BTW, you can see the trade and bid history of my bond here.

Yes GLBSE has a web interface, but GLBSE itself is really just a platform, Peter is correct in saying that the best thing to do would be to build a front end just for bonds, collecting the details just as Peter said.

We've got a command line client which is in the process of being turned into a app-usable library, so you wouldn't be building a "wrapper" for GLBSE, you'd be adding value.

To top it off BitcoinGlobal(the company that owns GLBSE) can partially subsidise with BTC some of the development of such a system and offer the subdomain bonds.glbse.com if anyone is interested.

Nefario.

This is very interesting - however personally I can't at this time engage in creating this system myself (I would however consider investing in a reliable developer if he had a good plan for this ... also would be interested in investing in other GLBSE related projects).

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
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July 25, 2011, 01:36:24 PM
 #30

I'm a developer.(I don't think the forum is short of them) Why dont you keep the lead on what a bond front end would do, and then we can design how to do it. We shouldn't need the development subsidized, but bonds.glbse.com would be better than bonds.ripper234.com
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July 25, 2011, 08:25:31 PM
 #31

Creating the bond cost 0.5 BTC (I also got charged an extra 0.5 BTC on some operation, not sure exactly which ... I'd really want to see a charge history feature in GLBSE)
Have you seen https://glbse.com/fees.html?  It doesn't list any other 0.5 BTC fees.  Isn't there someone you could contact about that?  Doesn't seem like double-fees would be something any startup would want to have potentially driving away customers/users.
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July 26, 2011, 12:52:36 AM
 #32

Creating the bond cost 0.5 BTC (I also got charged an extra 0.5 BTC on some operation, not sure exactly which ... I'd really want to see a charge history feature in GLBSE)
Have you seen https://glbse.com/fees.html?  It doesn't list any other 0.5 BTC fees.  Isn't there someone you could contact about that?  Doesn't seem like double-fees would be something any startup would want to have potentially driving away customers/users.

Sure, if you think you've been charged twice then please tell me (it has happened, there is an obscure bug in the system, and telling me gets you you're btc back and helps me find it).

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Ron Gross


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July 26, 2011, 04:32:05 AM
 #33

Creating the bond cost 0.5 BTC (I also got charged an extra 0.5 BTC on some operation, not sure exactly which ... I'd really want to see a charge history feature in GLBSE)
Have you seen https://glbse.com/fees.html?  It doesn't list any other 0.5 BTC fees.  Isn't there someone you could contact about that?  Doesn't seem like double-fees would be something any startup would want to have potentially driving away customers/users.

Sure, if you think you've been charged twice then please tell me (it has happened, there is an obscure bug in the system, and telling me gets you you're btc back and helps me find it).

Yeah, I believe I got charged twice. All I did was create a bond (0.5 BTC) and create the ticker symbol (which I believe is free).
Do you need any information not already posted here to investigate?

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July 26, 2011, 04:36:43 AM
 #34

Creating the bond cost 0.5 BTC (I also got charged an extra 0.5 BTC on some operation, not sure exactly which ... I'd really want to see a charge history feature in GLBSE)
Have you seen https://glbse.com/fees.html?  It doesn't list any other 0.5 BTC fees.  Isn't there someone you could contact about that?  Doesn't seem like double-fees would be something any startup would want to have potentially driving away customers/users.

Sure, if you think you've been charged twice then please tell me (it has happened, there is an obscure bug in the system, and telling me gets you you're btc back and helps me find it).

Yeah, I believe I got charged twice. All I did was create a bond (0.5 BTC) and create the ticker symbol (which I believe is free).
Do you need any information not already posted here to investigate?

pm me your user id and I'll sort it out.

PGP key id at pgp.mit.edu 0xA68F4B7C

To get help and support for GLBSE please email support@glbse.com
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Ron Gross


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July 26, 2011, 06:20:11 AM
 #35

Creating the bond cost 0.5 BTC (I also got charged an extra 0.5 BTC on some operation, not sure exactly which ... I'd really want to see a charge history feature in GLBSE)
Have you seen https://glbse.com/fees.html?  It doesn't list any other 0.5 BTC fees.  Isn't there someone you could contact about that?  Doesn't seem like double-fees would be something any startup would want to have potentially driving away customers/users.

Sure, if you think you've been charged twice then please tell me (it has happened, there is an obscure bug in the system, and telling me gets you you're btc back and helps me find it).

Yeah, I believe I got charged twice. All I did was create a bond (0.5 BTC) and create the ticker symbol (which I believe is free).
Do you need any information not already posted here to investigate?

pm me your user id and I'll sort it out.

pm sent. BTW, all the bonds I offered at 0.95 BTC were sold out!
Now there are 16 bonds at 0.96, 0.97 and 0.98 BTC each.

Also someone's trying to resell 3 bonds at 0.965 BTC, and there is one BUY order at 0.945.

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September 22, 2011, 07:36:52 AM
 #36

Any updates?

Did you decide how to spend the money you raised?

I already raised some money, and I won't be spending it.
The goal was a Proof of Concept from the get go, I didn't have a specific goal.
Also, I don't want to spend it on something since I'll need to return it soon anyway, and I don't want to speculate on GLBSE stocks or BTC/USD rate in the hopes of making enough money to return when the bond expires.

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September 22, 2011, 07:41:22 AM
 #37

What are your thoughts on how the POC went?

Any updates?

Did you decide how to spend the money you raised?

I already raised some money, and I won't be spending it.
The goal was a Proof of Concept from the get go, I didn't have a specific goal.
Also, I don't want to spend it on something since I'll need to return it soon anyway, and I don't want to speculate on GLBSE stocks or BTC/USD rate in the hopes of making enough money to return when the bond expires.

BTC Difficulty Avg Change Google Gadget - http://bit.ly/nWZLkr
How many Bitcoins can I expect to mine ? - http://bitcoindetailedcalculator.appspot.com
BTC Donation Address : 13Wu7W7jmjQot7xnqogHYSmUmR1MzyB3YE
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October 07, 2011, 09:36:15 PM
 #38

Any updates?

Did you decide how to spend the money you raised?

Dividends were just sent.

I sent a total of 83 BTC to asset holders (I own 17 of the bonds).
The dividend was paid in two parts, 1 BTC (1/83 per bond), and 82 BTC (82/83 per bond).

Please verify you received your funds.

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October 08, 2011, 03:42:35 AM
 #39

Any updates?

Did you decide how to spend the money you raised?

Dividends were just sent.

I sent a total of 83 BTC to asset holders (I own 17 of the bonds).
The dividend was paid in two parts, 1 BTC (1/83 per bond), and 82 BTC (82/83 per bond).

Please verify you received your funds.

So you've repaid early? I think you should announce this so that others don't buy the now worthless bond.

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Ron Gross


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October 08, 2011, 08:36:56 AM
 #40

Funds received.

So, what is to become of the shares of the bond?

The bond is now worth exactly 0. I'll announce this.

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
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