Bitcoin Forum
December 06, 2016, 06:15:00 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.13.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: [UPDT]Selling a bitcoin bond at GLBSE at 95% value, maturation date December 1st  (Read 7969 times)
ripper234
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260


Ron Gross


View Profile WWW
July 22, 2011, 10:22:12 PM
 #1

Update - all the dividends have been paid (ahead of schedule), so the bond is now worthless. Do not buy it.


tl;dr - if you have some bitcoins to loan me for little over four months, you'll make 5% on your investment, guaranteed.


So, I want to see if GLBSE really works. Also, I've never created a bond before in my life, so this is exciting.

I created a bond at GLBSE.
It basically says I will pay 1 BTC for every share at date December 1st 2011.
I am currently selling 50 such bonds at 0.95 BTC each.

(Please ignore the "issue price 0.8 BTC" text in the bond, I regretted it after creating the bond but I can't edit it away and it's not a meaningful part of the contract ... the rest of the bond text will be honored by me at December 1st).

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
Mastercoin Executive Director
Co-founder of the Israeli Bitcoin Association
Goat says: "Bitcoin is NOT Illegal in Thailand. There is no law against Bitcoin in Thailand!"
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1481048100
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481048100

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481048100
Reply with quote  #2

1481048100
Report to moderator
1481048100
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481048100

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481048100
Reply with quote  #2

1481048100
Report to moderator
elk-tamer
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56


View Profile
July 22, 2011, 11:31:45 PM
 #2

tl;dr - if you have some bitcoins to loan me for little over four months, you'll make 5% on your investment, guaranteed.


So, I want to see if GLBSE really works. Also, I've never created a bond before in my life, so this is exciting.

I created a bond at GLBSE.
It basically says I will pay 1 BTC for every share at date December 1st 2011.
I am currently selling 50 such bonds at 0.95 BTC each.

(Please ignore the "issue price 0.8 BTC" text in the bond, I regretted it after creating the bond but I can't edit it away and it's not a meaningful part of the contract ... the rest of the bond text will be honored by me at December 1st).
How is it guaranteed?
RandyMarsh
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 237



View Profile
July 22, 2011, 11:59:13 PM
 #3

5.263%

Stan?! STAN?!?!
ripper234
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260


Ron Gross


View Profile WWW
July 23, 2011, 12:01:04 AM
 #4

How is it guaranteed?

By my reputation. There is no external guarantee.
There is a (theoretical on my part, real on your part) risk that I'll vanish with all the bitcoins. All investments carry a risk.

I promise that I will not vanish with your coins, and will return them pronto on the expiration date. You can choose how much BTC you want to risk on my promise. Note that I do have some presence on this forum, a public email address, and a blog (http://ripper234.com/), the reputation of which will be damaged if I fail to deliver on my promise. This promise does not hinge on the value of BTC vs USD - I plan to keep this BTC solid in my account.

The only way I will not deliver is a combination of two events:
1. My BTC wallet will get hacked (unlikely, I'm securing my bitcoins rather well, on a separate dedicated machine). If this were to happen at the current rate, I would just buy the 100 BTC I owe people and pay everyone back, because my reputation and credibility is worth to me more than $1500.
2. If Event #1 (My bitcoins were stolen) were to happen and BTC vs USD will rise "too much" that the cost of buying back the lost BTC would be too much (my personal subjective value of "too much"), then I will default on the loan. For example, if 1 BTC would be equal $10,000 by December 1st, and my wallet was stolen, then I will not buy back BTC for $1,000,000, but rather file for bankruptcy.

On all other circumstances I will pay the loan back. See also a similar Proof of Concept bond issued back in March by grondilu.

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
Mastercoin Executive Director
Co-founder of the Israeli Bitcoin Association
ripper234
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260


Ron Gross


View Profile WWW
July 23, 2011, 12:03:19 AM
 #5

5.263%

What?

Ah right, silly me.

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
Mastercoin Executive Director
Co-founder of the Israeli Bitcoin Association
CurbsideProphet
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 672


View Profile
July 23, 2011, 12:06:43 AM
 #6

How is it guaranteed?

By my reputation. There is no external guarantee.
There is a (theoretical on my part, real on your part) risk that I'll vanish with all the bitcoins. All investments carry a risk.

With risk comes a premium.  5% is a very low risk premium.  

If you don't find enough funding here, you may want to try a website like Prosper.com.  Assuming you have very good credit, you can get a loan for around 7% (depending on the amount you're trying to borrow).

1ProphetnvP8ju2SxxRvVvyzCtTXDgLPJV
ripper234
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260


Ron Gross


View Profile WWW
July 23, 2011, 12:11:50 AM
 #7

How is it guaranteed?

By my reputation. There is no external guarantee.
There is a (theoretical on my part, real on your part) risk that I'll vanish with all the bitcoins. All investments carry a risk.

With risk comes a premium.  5% is a very low risk premium.  

If you don't find enough funding here, you may want to try a website like Prosper.com.  Assuming you have very good credit, you can get a loan for around 7% (depending on the amount you're trying to borrow).

5% per four months, it's actually 15.7% yearly.
I'm not doing this to raise money, I'm doing this as a proof of concept. I specifically want to test the bitcoin market and GLBSE. Besides, I've never issued a bond before, I want to know how it's like.

Also - note that there are currently very few options for investing bitcoins. While you might get high yields on some investment tied to USD, if BTC vs USD skyrockets you lose big time. I would want to see an investment market in pure BTC emerge over time.

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
Mastercoin Executive Director
Co-founder of the Israeli Bitcoin Association
CurbsideProphet
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 672


View Profile
July 23, 2011, 12:16:44 AM
 #8

Gotcha.  I thought maybe you were just trying to raise funds so I wanted to give you an option I've used before.

Since you're doing this as a proof of concept, goodluck to you, I'd be interested to hear the results.   Hope you post a follow-up.

1ProphetnvP8ju2SxxRvVvyzCtTXDgLPJV
JohnDoe
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 392



View Profile
July 23, 2011, 12:18:30 AM
 #9

Do you have a bitcoin-otc rating? That would probably help to assess trustworthiness .
ripper234
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260


Ron Gross


View Profile WWW
July 23, 2011, 12:28:15 AM
 #10

Do you have a bitcoin-otc rating? That would probably help to assess trustworthiness .

No I don't, I never traded there.
Check out this post on my blog for assurance that I indeed own ripper234.com (A domain with Pagerank 3), perhaps that will convince you that I'm serious.

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
Mastercoin Executive Director
Co-founder of the Israeli Bitcoin Association
m0w3r
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 132


View Profile
July 23, 2011, 12:55:49 AM
 #11

Are you "investing" the bitcoins - it sounds like no?
bitrick
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 64


View Profile
July 23, 2011, 01:20:22 AM
 #12

If a bitcoin bond seller sell the bitcoins right away for dollars (with the idea of buying the bitcoins back later for a lower price),
that would be a short sale, which is a bet against bitcoins (and has significant risk). Would this be the first bitcoin short?

By the way, just out of curiosity, does the contract for bitcoin bonds have all the regular stuff like name, address, phone #, soc sec #, etc of the seller? It seems odd to be referencing virtual identities like forum accounts and domain names for a contract when all that really matters is: how would I sue you and is there any collateral?
Ben Walsh (beamer)
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 315


View Profile
July 23, 2011, 01:32:55 AM
 #13

Definitely not the first bitcoin short - take a look at bitoption.org - site really needs an overhaul for usability but it allows shorting of bitcoin if that's your thing.

If a bitcoin bond seller sell the bitcoins right away for dollars (with the idea of buying the bitcoins back later for a lower price),
that would be a short sale, which is a bet against bitcoins (and has significant risk). Would this be the first bitcoin short?

By the way, just out of curiosity, does the contract for bitcoin bonds have all the regular stuff like name, address, phone #, soc sec #, etc of the seller? It seems odd to be referencing virtual identities like forum accounts and domain names for a contract when all that really matters is: how would I sue you and is there any collateral?


BTC Difficulty Avg Change Google Gadget - http://bit.ly/nWZLkr
How many Bitcoins can I expect to mine ? - http://bitcoindetailedcalculator.appspot.com
BTC Donation Address : 13Wu7W7jmjQot7xnqogHYSmUmR1MzyB3YE
bitrick
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 64


View Profile
July 23, 2011, 02:30:58 AM
 #14

Definitely not the first bitcoin short - take a look at bitoption.org - site really needs an overhaul for usability but it allows shorting of bitcoin if that's your thing.

That's cool. I took a look and it looks like they were operational in the past and will be in the near future.
ripper234
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260


Ron Gross


View Profile WWW
July 23, 2011, 06:31:34 AM
 #15

If a bitcoin bond seller sell the bitcoins right away for dollars (with the idea of buying the bitcoins back later for a lower price),
that would be a short sale, which is a bet against bitcoins (and has significant risk). Would this be the first bitcoin short?

By the way, just out of curiosity, does the contract for bitcoin bonds have all the regular stuff like name, address, phone #, soc sec #, etc of the seller? It seems odd to be referencing virtual identities like forum accounts and domain names for a contract when all that really matters is: how would I sue you and is there any collateral?


I didn't put those items in the contract, no. Essentially I think it's interesting to run this bond as an online identity - to prove you can raise money even without giving your "real life" info (although in this case, I gave my personal email, and my blog has enough identifying information in case anyone really wanted to sue me).
If you think the bond is too risky in its presenet state, wait for it - perhaps it's relative value to you will increase as the expiration date nears.

The first bond was sold (at 0.8 BTC)!
There are now a few buy orders at 0.8 BTC (and my original sell orders at 0.95 BTC)

Since from my perspective, I'm already giving up a lot of value here (15% yearly!) just for a proof of concept, I don't plan to lower the bond price significantly in the near future. But - feel free to put up any buy orders you think are realistic.

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
Mastercoin Executive Director
Co-founder of the Israeli Bitcoin Association
ripper234
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260


Ron Gross


View Profile WWW
July 23, 2011, 01:25:33 PM
 #16

The first bond was sold (at 0.8 BTC)!

A few more bonds were sold at 0.95 BTC. Seems I wasn't that off the mark. There are plenty more waiting for you.

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
Mastercoin Executive Director
Co-founder of the Israeli Bitcoin Association
ripper234
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260


Ron Gross


View Profile WWW
July 23, 2011, 04:20:09 PM
 #17

So, what are you planning to do with the funds you raise before paying thm back?

Any suggestions?

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
Mastercoin Executive Director
Co-founder of the Israeli Bitcoin Association
Ben Walsh (beamer)
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 315


View Profile
July 23, 2011, 04:37:58 PM
 #18

Some investment in the other companies listed on GLBSE perhaps ...

IBB looks like a good investment in terms of both benefits to the Bitcoin community and potential for profit.

The company has already made investments in two other companies, which have listed on GLBSE (BO and BST).
Both of these seem to have aims of earning wealth from effort, stimulating trade in Bitcoins.

Mining had its place, in stimulating interest in Bitcoin in the earlier stages, but I think it is done now, time to build demand for Bitcoin rather than build the supply any further.

Disclaimer - I am long IBB through GLBSE.

So, what are you planning to do with the funds you raise before paying thm back?

Any suggestions?

BTC Difficulty Avg Change Google Gadget - http://bit.ly/nWZLkr
How many Bitcoins can I expect to mine ? - http://bitcoindetailedcalculator.appspot.com
BTC Donation Address : 13Wu7W7jmjQot7xnqogHYSmUmR1MzyB3YE
elk-tamer
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56


View Profile
July 23, 2011, 05:54:28 PM
 #19

So, what are you planning to do with the funds you raise before paying thm back?

Any suggestions?

It seems like there should be some value just in properly creating the mechanics of a bond. I would think there would be a way to integrate it with GLBSE, not by investing with companies but by having the bond payout be in shares at market value for a GLBSE security.

My suggestion would be to use the money from your bond to set up a website that handles creating bonds.
ripper234
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260


Ron Gross


View Profile WWW
July 24, 2011, 07:51:26 AM
 #20

It seems like there should be some value just in properly creating the mechanics of a bond. I would think there would be a way to integrate it with GLBSE, not by investing with companies but by having the bond payout be in shares at market value for a GLBSE security.

My suggestion would be to use the money from your bond to set up a website that handles creating bonds.

I don't understand. What's missing with the bond in the way I created it?

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
Mastercoin Executive Director
Co-founder of the Israeli Bitcoin Association
Pages: [1] 2 3 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!