Lakefront property for sale, bitcoin accepted

[lucasjkr]

One of my firms clients bought a house last month, and we sent the funds straight to the escrow company.

By the point is, with bitcoin you don't need that step.

You draft your deed "for value received, xxx bitcoins transferred to xxx address, seller hereby... "

Seller can then sign it over to buyer. If buyer reneges, you might be the first court case, but it's simple to prove that the buyer did not transfer value and therefor the transfer is void. So, no, you don't need an escrow mechanism (and associated fee), when doing a sale via bitcoin. Now, it wouldn't be nearly so easy if buyer or seller had a mortgage involved. But in this case, the seller doesn't have a mortgage and he's looking for a buyer who won't need one also.

Despite so many peoples hope that bitcoin can overturn the system, the system can accommodate bitcoin just fine...

[bits4books]

I was really hoping to come in here and see a monumental bitcoin success story.
But then I remembered I'm on an internet forum..

Either way, I hope you find a buyer and work something out. Would be huge for BTC.

[Inedible]

Can someone please explain to me what I'm missing?

I honestly don't get it.

Am I imagining the risk that the buyer takes on by using Bitcoin without escrow?

Has this already been addressed and I missed it or the post deleted?

lucasjkr - please help me out here!

BitchicksHusband - have I gone insane?

[lucasjkr]

You're mis-seeing the risk

Here is a sample deed

You would first examine the property.

You would then engage a title company to do a title search and then buy title insurance.

The SELLER would then provide a deed along the lines of (and do consult with a lawyer so that you're sure that your deed is compliant with the laws of your juridstiction)

You would change it to be along the lines of:

On January 32, 2667 THE GRANTOR(S)

* JOHN H. DOE, a single person,

for and in consideration of 520 Bitcoins (five hundred twenty bitcoins) with a dollar value of $1,000,000 (ONE MILLION DOLLARS), delivered to the address of 1F1tAaz5x1HUXrCNLbtMDqcw6o5GNn4xqX, conveys, releases and quit claims to GRANTEE(S):

* JANE D. DOE

The following property.

<<Fill in property description>>

[/i]

The SELLER executes the deed and delivers it to the BUYER. The BUYER then sends the bitcoins to the seller.

The SELLER is protected because, if the BUYER does not deliver (which is demonstratable - if the buyer says "but i did send those coins to that address", you can easily prove that that didn't occur) then the seller can prove they did not receive the consideration and nullify the transaction.

The BUYER is protected because they don't transmit the bitcoins until they have an all clear on the title and they have an executed deed in hand.

So yes, I think you're overstating the risk vastly. Again, real estate is an incredibly structured transaction with many fail safes along the way. The seller here is just proposing cutting out the real estate agent (who might take up to 8%) and a bitcoin escrow agent (another 1.5-2% apparently). 10% on $80,000 or $100,000 is real money if you ask me.

Now... would i feel comfortable purchasing a car that way? Maybe... not quite as comfortable, but i would consider it if everything else about he transaction felt legitimate.

Would i buy a rare gold coin that way? Or even just cash in the mail? Not a chance.

But real estate? Sure. Engage a lawyer, spend an hour or two explaining bitcoin, and have them draft a deed that is valid in your state, and you should be fine. If the transaction goes south, they fail to deliver the bitcoins and then attempt to file the deed, you might end up in court, but again, due to the way the blockchain works, whether you had to have it explained to a judge, a jury or a mediator, it would be easy to demonstrate the deed is invalid.

I *HOPE* that helps! 

[deadweasel]

This does help, thank you!

[Inedible]

You're mis-seeing the risk

Here is a sample deed

You would first examine the property.

You would then engage a title company to do a title search and then buy title insurance.

The SELLER would then provide a deed along the lines of (and do consult with a lawyer so that you're sure that your deed is compliant with the laws of your juridstiction)

You would change it to be along the lines of:

On January 32, 2667 THE GRANTOR(S)

* JOHN H. DOE, a single person,

for and in consideration of 520 Bitcoins (five hundred twenty bitcoins) with a dollar value of $1,000,000 (ONE MILLION DOLLARS), delivered to the address of 1F1tAaz5x1HUXrCNLbtMDqcw6o5GNn4xqX, conveys, releases and quit claims to GRANTEE(S):

* JANE D. DOE

The following property.

<<Fill in property description>>

[/i]

The SELLER executes the deed and delivers it to the BUYER. The BUYER then sends the bitcoins to the seller.

The SELLER is protected because, if the BUYER does not deliver (which is demonstratable - if the buyer says "but i did send those coins to that address", you can easily prove that that didn't occur) then the seller can prove they did not receive the consideration and nullify the transaction.

The BUYER is protected because they don't transmit the bitcoins until they have an all clear on the title and they have an executed deed in hand.

So yes, I think you're overstating the risk vastly. Again, real estate is an incredibly structured transaction with many fail safes along the way. The seller here is just proposing cutting out the real estate agent (who might take up to 8%) and a bitcoin escrow agent (another 1.5-2% apparently). 10% on $80,000 or $100,000 is real money if you ask me.

Now... would i feel comfortable purchasing a car that way? Maybe... not quite as comfortable, but i would consider it if everything else about he transaction felt legitimate.

Would i buy a rare gold coin that way? Or even just cash in the mail? Not a chance.

But real estate? Sure. Engage a lawyer, spend an hour or two explaining bitcoin, and have them draft a deed that is valid in your state, and you should be fine. If the transaction goes south, they fail to deliver the bitcoins and then attempt to file the deed, you might end up in court, but again, due to the way the blockchain works, whether you had to have it explained to a judge, a jury or a mediator, it would be easy to demonstrate the deed is invalid.

I *HOPE* that helps! 

I still don't see how this prevents someone intent on committing fraud from defrauding the buyer?

If I'm engaging a lawyer, why wouldn't I use them as escrow? They're a neutral and trusted party.

[lucasjkr]

You have a title report. You have title insurance. And you have a signed deed in your hand before you even transfer a single bitcoin.

Where is the fraud to occur?

[BitchicksHusband]

You have a title report. You have title insurance. And you have a signed deed in your hand before you even transfer a single bitcoin.

Where is the fraud to occur?

You have more rights with an Escrow company.  You get 3 days right of refusal, for instance.  Your way you give that up.  What if you discover that the entire floor of the upstairs is rotten and needs to be replaced?  Or that the foundation is cracked and has been painted over?  (These are just some examples.)

There are things that are hard to notice until you are actually living there.

Could you legally complete the transaction without an Escrow company?  Yes.

Do I recommend it?  No, especially with Bitcoin, as the seller could then transfer the coins to another account and claim poverty when sued if something goes wrong, even though they still have all the money.

And for a party to be practically INSISTING on having no escrow company?  I wouldn't do that deal with a 10-foot pole.

[fluidjax]

Any one who buys property without a few precautions such as a lawyer and maybe a surveyor is a fool.
There are many pitfalls and problems that someone who doesnt regulaly transact property can fall victim to.
I thinks its great that you may do a sale using bitcoins, but a buyer needs some form of escrow, confirmation of your title, etc etc
These precautions dont cost much when compared to the price of the property so only a fool would try and complete a sale without them.

[lucasjkr]

You have a title report. You have title insurance. And you have a signed deed in your hand before you even transfer a single bitcoin.

Where is the fraud to occur?

You have more rights with an Escrow company.  You get 3 days right of refusal, for instance.  Your way you give that up.  What if you discover that the entire floor of the upstairs is rotten and needs to be replaced?  Or that the foundation is cracked and has been painted over?  (These are just some examples.)

There are things that are hard to notice until you are actually living there.

Could you legally complete the transaction without an Escrow company?  Yes.

Do I recommend it?  No, especially with Bitcoin, as the seller could then transfer the coins to another account and claim poverty when sued if something goes wrong, even though they still have all the money.

And for a party to be practically INSISTING on having no escrow company?  I wouldn't do that deal with a 10-foot pole.

In this instance, the OP was only offering a piece of land, not a building.

But either way, you really ought to do a home inspection prior to closing... If you're hoping to find all the issues you might face after you've already closed on the deal, you're doing it wrong.

And the OP originally came in saying they were attempting to cutout the real estate agent. They also said no need for escrow since it's a bitcoin transaction - and again, I will agree that there is more risk to the seller than to the buyer, who again, shouldn't be transferring Bitcoins until they've already assumed possession of the executed deed.

I dont' see the issue, AT ALL.

And i'll go further to say that if this isn't a perfect transaction for Bitcoin, then it it's dead in the water and has no value at all.

[AndrewWilliams]

As a Realtor, let me chime in.



First of all OP has not posted an address or APN (assessor's parcel number) of the property.

How do you expect anyone to purchase the property if they can't look it up?





Second, escrow is used for a reason.

There are many things that can go wrong in a real estate transaction.


Title company is used to find if the property is free and clear, and to determine the property lines among other things.

Unless escrow is used, you really are taking a chance.


Even with a signed contract, the contract could be invalidated due to any number of issues!
Including: Competency, age, state of mind, technicalities, etc.

Without escrow buyer loses any and all leverage!


A title company will not protect you from that! Once you send the Bitcoin, you are at the mercy of a contract which could be found to be invalid for a number of reasons!

Not a good idea!

[lucasjkr]

Hence, the need for legal counsel! OP mentioned doing the transaction without any, but hardly pushed for it. Of course, they seem to have been scared off from this thread a long time ago!

Even with escrow, the items you bring up (sellers competency) would be things that arise after funds have been distributed at closing.

[BobMarley]

cant tell if trolling or serios

[jratcliff63367]

I got so fed up with this thread I just took down my listing entirely.  The property is no longer for sale, not for bitcoin or for USD.  I think I'll go fishing.  Carry on as you were.

[Inedible]

In this instance, the OP was only offering a piece of land, not a building.

But either way, you really ought to do a home inspection prior to closing... If you're hoping to find all the issues you might face after you've already closed on the deal, you're doing it wrong.

And the OP originally came in saying they were attempting to cutout the real estate agent. They also said no need for escrow since it's a bitcoin transaction - and again, I will agree that there is more risk to the seller than to the buyer, who again, shouldn't be transferring Bitcoins until they've already assumed possession of the executed deed.

I think I ought to be clear about something. I'm not considering the home falling apart or the land being a toxic waste dump. That's not a concern to me as OP has offered to let any purchaser inspect it so there's no issue there.

What we disagree with is who the risk lies with. Why do you feel there's any risk to the seller?

You can see after 6 transactions (a few coffees) whether the transaction is complete.

I dont' see the issue, AT ALL.

And i'll go further to say that if this isn't a perfect transaction for Bitcoin, then it it's dead in the water and has no value at all.

Will you run through an example with me? It'll be a multi part post after your reply.

Let's say you're not a French citizen (which I suspect you're not). I tell you that I have some land to sell. It's a fantastic price.

I'll even let you camp on it for a week before you buy it just to make sure you like it.

We go to an Office de Terre* (an official and much cheaper way of transferring property in France for those in the know) and I have them confirm the land title transfer and we sit and watch you make the coin transfer to my address (which I've given you, naturally). When I see your coins are confirmed (or not, because I'm a busy man and I have meetings to go), the official gives you the title deeds and then I leave.

Would you say that's a pretty good way to go about it and that 'avoids escrow' although the Office de Terre seems to me to be acting as an escrow?

(Also, why do you keep saying that the OP has probably vanished. He regularly replies :/)

[yuriygeorge]

Don't mean to spam, but also selling Chicago Gold Coast Condo:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=349197.0

I'm a licensed real estate broker in Illinois, so this would be a legit, legally-backed transaction. My reputation and license is on the line.

[RealEstateForBitcoin]

We may be able to help... Realestateforbitcoin.com